~! Danger Of Bhausaria Mindset In The Panth !~

[N30S1NGH]

Yeah you are right ji, there is a need of creating a separate thread on female saints their pictures and sakhiya, i think thats one subject sangat is not aware of generally speaking may be because many singhani who reached heights in spirituality have remained gupt only some coming out and gives parkash.

[Charandhoor Singh]

Wow, namashkar to mata jis charan for doing those japji sahibs. This brings up another point.

Although I am sure Bhausaria would have encouraged Sikhs to have strong rehat, interpratating gurbani literally has lead to people seeing a lack of importance in bania.

Individuals claiming to be scholars in Sikhi beleive that it is not necessary to read the same bania daily. The think as long as you have read it once and have understood it that its ok, there is no need to repeat it. This shows such a lack spiritual intuition.

Seeing only the literal meaning has meant that they have not been able to comprehend a small amount of atam ras anand from the bani. I know quite a few 'Dr Sahibs' who appeared to be very well versed in Sikh traditions and scriptures, yet I always wondered why if they knew so much why they were so little interested in practising Sikhi, they were content just 'knowing about it'. I believe its because through 'scince and logic' and literally viewing our bania their sight is blurred by the limits of approaching religion through methodology. They had limited Sikhi to a sociological phenemon and did not could not see it as a spiritual tradition. This is very evident from a lot of articles that you may read written by these individuals.

The blame lies in Bhausaria's due to their approaches to studying Gurbani and through interpretating everything literally - failing to see into the realms of limitless divinity. If the translation of Gurbani is limited so intensely as it has been done, then it is no wonder people no longer think its important to read their bania.

[Aparadhee]

i agree

[N30S1NGH]

I already sent a ticket to mod's to spilt this topic but i guess they didnt get a chance a look at it, i ll repsond to apardhai post, this may be new for some or shocking for some. Shower for anand for some, acid of rain for some. enjoy !

interesting points namstang ji, nice sakhia of raja janak etc. so basically if we reach a certain avastha we dont need to wear our kakkars? thats what your implying though right? if i was to become "gurmukh" i wouldnt have to wear the kakkars which are mandatory as per hukam of guru gobind singh and panj pyareh?

Not certain avastha but bhramgyan avastha. There are many examples - after reaching bhramgyan, bhramgyani didnt felt a need to wear kakars. All this depends on different nature of bhramgyanis, there are three different nature of bhramgyanis, despite of being different natures their avastha is same/sam there is no difference. There are examples in the past to back this up.

1. Mastane: Intoxicated ones through remembrance get themselves merged with Almighty(Vahiguroo). More carefree un-attached will boldly function. Do not reveal their secret. Talk in Mysterious tone. Very few rarely come to understand. Have no time to teach common people. Always remain lost in spiritual contemplation. Some rare persons can take benefit from them.

2. Divane- Madhin lover remain intoxicated in God's love but give out sometime such inner secret that proves a source of life for the seekers, who after having themselves proven worth in their sight are also able to colour others in God's Love.

3. Daane- The wise ones who live according to what they preach and talk in understandable tone which benefits all and hearing which people renounce evil deeds. They always treat the path of truth and are eager for welfare of one and all.

1st example of Mastaine Mahapursh:

Example of masatane mahapursh who sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale came across -

gyani thakur singh ji shares an sakhi once in ludhiana, there was gurmukh/mahapursh bhramgyani saint named- baba ban batta. Baba ji always used to hold an ban(arrow) and wear khadar cloth to cover up and all day used to wander around like mastna in the village .

In close by village, there was another female saint bhramgyani - named Chando. Chando also used to wander around naked in the village. Everyone respected her, they all knew she was very high elevated saint. When baba ban batta came in her village, saint chando quickly get a cloth from someone to cover herself and bow down(matha taiked) to baba ban batta. Upon this incident, one shopkeeper was suprised to see this incident and asked her, why you cover yourself only when he comes not other times you don't feel shy infront of us.

She replied in carefree tone, are you people even bandaie/males? you people are still istraie roop (wives) roop. Only baba ban batta is purkh(real mard/man) because he is bhram gyani. He did bhagti of that akaal purkh that akaal purkh attributes came in him. He also became purkh..

2nd example of mastaine mahapursh- dhan baba nand singh ji

3rd example of mastaine mahapursh- taken from jivan kiranaie:

When sant jawala singh ji harkhowale meet baba kahn das (mastana fakir) he got soo intoxicated in the rang he took of all his clothes and sat in samadhi near the river, this news reached sant aya singh ji hotimardan who then asked sant jawala singh ji harkhowale to re-take amrit not because he committed kurahit but because students with sant jawala singh ji will not be able understand this "kautak" go astray.

Now moving to examples of divane mahapursh

example of divanaie mahapursh: Rare picture of raj yogi sant attar singh ji maustanewale:

Now moving to example of danae mahapursh- Sant gurbachan singh ji all his life , lived according to maryada followed by his students not because he would commit kurahit doing so otherwise but just to ensure the students of taksal does not go astray by copying them. Sant gurbachan singh ji had more than 1000 students(vidharti).

lets say for example that a singh does 650000 jap ji sahibs or even sukhmani sahibs does that mean he can take his dastar off and even his kirpan and say oh well forget it i dont feel like wearing that today?

As far i know there is no mentioning that mother of sant sunder singh ji bhindranwale wore keski to begin with, 65000 patt wasnt my point that just an mere example of her full life naam abhyaas, the point remains she being a female saint didnt felt a need to wear her keski.

and im not doubting the jeevan of these bibia, i have met bibia who do alot of bani abhyas but dnt wear keski. however that doesnt mean we should overlook the issue.

whether a bibi does 500 0000000000000000 sukhmani sahibs or watever, it doesnt mean she has the authority to remove her kirpan does it?

Regardless of patts, it all comes down as i said, one reaching bhramgyan and decide which nature of bhramgyani they belong to, according to that they can decide. After reaching bhramgyan for bhramgyanis personally there is no need for shariat, trikat, marfat just hakikat. All the dharams are divided in two these four categories, even gurbani is divided into these four universal categories if you do research on gurbani.

i dont blame these bibia, alot of bibia do not have knowledge of the necessity of keski, as the background/ family / jatha they are from do not do parchar of this.

but that doesnt mean we should let this dhill in the panth go on any further.

oh what a joke, these singhani have tasted atam ras, obviously in your twisted mind (black and white sikhi/shariat sikhi) you think women have to wear keski before they can taste bhramgyan.

if your reasoning of only warriors wearing dastar and that bibia dont need to wear dastar cos they stay at home cooking is true then why did whole of sant gurbachan singh family adhere to wearing keski, even tho they didnt see it as kakkar they recognised the importance of it. there are alot of spiritual reasons regarding naam abhyaas behind dastar not just ones regarding identity a topic that 3ho singhs know alot about. so obviously dastar is for both men and women, your point about pyjami and singhnia is funny in that you are comparing guru maharaj's dastar to a pyjami! lol

who said anything about cooking? smart move to twist my words, i mentioned taking care of bhaujangi. Ok answer this smart cookie, singhs back in time went to war, if you think singhani also went to war with singhs therefore wore dummalla who took care of bhujangis? nanny?

Keski for women is optional, we should do parchar about it as you find sant gurbachan singh ji did parchar ocasstionally to women but not like a bandi parchar you people are doing where non keski women yet amrit dhari was shown as inferior, influenced with punjabi culture, maya, dandi kalah, bhamanvad, western soceity, less of avastha, and all sort of poisnous guilt trips thrown at her.

maharaj made his panth niaara, a sikh that will stand out from the crowd. maharaj gave us this distinct identity, kesh, dastar, kakkars, bana.

if your were to put a amritdhari bibi who wears a chuni in a crowd of 100 hindu bibia all wearing suit and chuni, would you be able to spot her?

how about if she wore dastar? ...

sorry mate you can try to filter sikh bibya in crowd of 100 hindu bibya. I have better things to do in my life than spot sikh bibya from the roof and feel good, oh look at that man, sikh bibya loooks distinct from hindu bibya..oh how nice..panth is chardikalah..oh i forgot the classic now rss wont be able to target as anymore..lol...you people should read sri akaal ustat where maharaj has given classic examples one after another of various karam kands people perform, obviously you will tell me..maharaj is not referring to us its refferring to all hindus,, how silly. Maharaj knew sikhs in future will get stuck in sharia and start idiolizing sharia, thats also why he wrote sri akaal usat.

again you asked for this keski debate by mentioning this alongside bhausarias manmat nonsense, tradition of keski goes back to 1699, you said yourself that you cannot refute the case of mata bhag kaur ji, she was brahm giani and she had to adorn a dastar on guru gobind singh ji's hukam, not because she was a warrior because even before she took to the battle field she used to be a simple singhni whos job was to "cook" as you put it.

There is no historical resources suggesting that mata bhag kaur ji adorned dastar because of guru ji hakum, why dont you show us actual sources rather bring half baked theories??

There is no denying that mata bhag kaur ji wore dastar, so far according to my khoj a) she did it out of love, an way to express love and rest doesnt matter b) for pratical reasons in order to battle field- wearing chuni is not pratical.

this thread was blatently created to attack certain jathe in particular akj and to undermine and attack its ideals my associating it with bhausaria

when in reality the no1 chela of bhausaria, mr ghagga was actually challenged and defeated in debate by tapoban singhs who actually adhere to "akj thinking".

who said akj adapted full bhausaria mindset??? but at the same time one cannot ignore its influence-

a) emphasize on vikayaran being authority on gurbani

b) sense of insecurity on avtar theory, (sargun/nirgun) adapted by puratan samparda's in sikhism, there was element of insecurity that they had to make sri guru nanak dev ji as standalone prophet and make other half baked stories, it was sri guru nanak dev ji who blessed all the bhagats with darshan and gave gurmantar and give them mukhti, instead of traditonal stories of bhagats getting bhramgyan.

c) only khalsa can acess sachkhand this is same old victorian influence/christian missionaries- adapt christ he will liberate you, this mindset was adapted by bhausaria too, concept of turiya avastha which is same as sachkhand in gurbani totally ignored along with turiya avastha many other hindu/islamic spiritual orders outside of sikhism talk about.

d) beleif that gurbani can only be interperted in one way.

e) Katha is manmat. However gurbani mentions- sab tai utam har ki katha

f) Anti sant sentiments among the jatha

g) Disbeleif certains parts(treh charitar) in sri dasam granth.

h) Naam can only japped one certain way- baikhri, madhma, pasanti, para bani.

If you think i m hater of your jatha just because i state facts so be it, i only give reality check to people who with their bhandi parchar start imposing jatha's beleif to rest of the panth and push their beleifs as supermacy of khalsa panth and maryada. Whatever you guys do i have no issues neither i m interesting in witch haunting you guys but when you come out treat gurmukh bibya as inferior/less chardi-kalah or dhil panthis/ or label them as hindu bibya just because they dont wear keski then i have to come fwd and set the record straight.

As they say:

"People who live in glass houses, shouldnt throw stones at others"

references:

- Three types of nature taken from source: The radiance of complete journey to Akaal Purkh by Sant baba Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowaley.

- Sakhi of sant jawala singh ji from book- soceity of saints.

- Sakhi of ban batta by gyani thakur singh ji katha on japji sahib.

[khalistan_zindabaad]

excellent post. . . i must say you do have knowledge. . . i would like to add another sakhi of Sant Kartaar Singh Jee as i rember (correct me if i go wrong sumwhere, i just remember bits of the sakhi)

Once Sant kartaar Singh jee with the jatha were walking somewhere, they came across this old bhagat who was covered in mud and was lying on the floor (or side of canal), Sant Jee always wore a Chita Chola, Sant Jee Ran and Grabbed the bhagat and started to Hug him and speak to him. . .The singhs of the jatha were amazed, all of sant jee chola had got dirty. . .After this incidence some of the singhs asked sant jee why he hugged that bhagat, sant jee repleid he is coloured in the rang of akaal purakh aka was a saint, brahm giani, mahapurkh, bhai sahib bhai . . .(wateva u prefer) . . . there are various types of mahapurkhs.

[khalistan_zindabaad]

Another sakhi comes to mind. . .This is taken from katha done by sant kartaar singh jee (correct me if i go wrong)

While listening to the katha, Sant jee goes into a lot of bairaag, and states . . . that there was one mistake commited by him and all of his life he has regretted doing it. . .it was a genuine mistake. . .

Sant Kartaar Singh Jee used to help Sant Gurbachan Singh jee do isnaan. Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee always wore a very big sri sahib, in there older years, they used to get a slightly smaller one (still about 10 inch) and used to put it in a parna and tye around there forehead when about to do isnaan.

Once Sant Kartaar Singh Jee went to give the big sri sahib to Khalsa jee after they had done isnaan and by mistake there was a 1 second gap. . . Straight away khalsa jee grabbed the sri sahib and went into sssoooooooooo much bairaag, the quickly ran to sri darbaar sahib, and started to BEG for maafi from guru jee, they then quickly got 5 singhs together and told them to give them tankhaaa, they then did benti to all the sangat to do ardaas for them. ..thats how much respect and high maryada they kept . . .Sant jee did this kautak himself to teach the jatha how to respect there kakkars, now we have ppl saying you dont have to wear a sri sahib whilst having a bath etc. . .This sakhi is about a puuran brahm giani who kept the danae mahapursh type jeevan.

There have been other mahapurkhs who havnt wore the kakkars such as Sant Daler Singh Jee Shahbad Valeh.

However for a khalsa it is nessesary to keep panj kakkar on themselfs at all times. . .when one reached that avastha then its up to maharaj what happens or dsnt happen next

[khalistan_zindabaad]

Above is a picture of Sant Baba Thakur Singh Jee Sitting with a Sher of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. . .Jathedar Akali Baba Keertan Singh Jee

[Singh132]

I don't understand why we have to always attack each other in some way or form. It's out of habit I think. Bad habits should be broken.

Before I address the points below, I want to say that Rehit is not optional for any Gursikh at any stage. The mark of a Gursikh is to be "hukami" or follow hukam. Who was at a higher spiritual stage than Guru Gobind Singh? But he adopted Khalsa Rehit. Same way, Gursikhs like Baba Gurbachan Singh and Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh reached very high spiritual stages but never compromised on rehit. Because this is a promise a Gursikh makes to the Punj Pyaaray. That promise cannot be broken no matter what the avasthaa.

As for keski kakaar: Please refer to Guru Kian Saakhian which clearly says keski was given by a kakaar. This is a puratan source. Other Bhatt Vehis say the same thing. Interestingly, Nihang Singhs still say that kes with keski is the kakaar. Unless rehit is different for Singhs and Kaurs, then keski is mandatory.

who said akj adapted full bhausaria mindset??? but at the same time one cannot ignore its influence-

a) emphasize on vikayaran being authority on gurbani

Are you suggesting Viyaakaran isn't an authority for interpreting gurbani? What do you think the aunkarhs and sihaaris in words are there for? I doubt it's there for decoration alone. Using viaakaran, you learn the meaning of the words and you don't have 25 different people trying to read 25 different meanings into those words. By learning viyaakaran, you empower the individual to interpret and learn Gurbani as opposed to relying on someone else to feed meanings.

b) sense of insecurity on avtar theory, (sargun/nirgun) adapted by puratan samparda's in sikhism, there was element of insecurity that they had to make sri guru nanak dev ji as standalone prophet and make other half baked stories, it was sri guru nanak dev ji who blessed all the bhagats with darshan and gave gurmantar and give them mukhti, instead of traditonal stories of bhagats getting bhramgyan.

Do you have any response to Svaiyay M: 5 kay which tells us "Siri Guru Sahib Sabh Oopar. Karee Kirpa Satjug jin Dhroo par. Sree Prehlaad Bhagat Udhreeang. Haso kamal mathay par dhareeang." It clearly means it was Guru Nanak's blessings on Dhroo and Prehlad. If you are pressing puraatan approach so much, why don't you look at all the Janamsakhis which say clearly how the Bhagats met Guru Nanak and became his Sikhs? Why don't you mention that the Goindval Pothis, wherever Bhagat Bani comes up, say "Bhagat Babay Kay" ie. Bhagat of Baba (Guru Nanak). There is no doubt that these Bhagats were very elevated souls before meeting Guru Nanak but why do you insist on trying to take away from the glory of Guru Nanak which is recorded in Janamsakhis and other sources which clearly say that these Bhagats became his Sikhs after recognizing him as the Satguru?

c) only khalsa can acess sachkhand this is same old victorian influence/christian missionaries- adapt christ he will liberate you, this mindset was adapted by bhausaria too, concept of turiya avastha which is same as sachkhand in gurbani totally ignored along with turiya avastha many other hindu/islamic spiritual orders outside of sikhism talk about.

NO other religion even talks about Sachkhand. No one before Guru Nanak mentioned it. If you think that getting to Sachkhand is possible without parsaad of Guru Nanak, I think you need to look again at what Gurbani says.

d) beleif that gurbani can only be interperted in one way.

The meaning of Gurbani is spiritual and depends on the person reading/hearing. The words however often have a single meaning. This meaning is clarified by the Viyaakaran. Please disprove it.

e) Katha is manmat. However gurbani mentions- sab tai utam har ki katha

Do you know what "sabh te uttam har ki katha" means? Gurbani is in itself katha of Vahiguru. The katha mentioned in Gurbani NEVER refers to a human being giving a lecture about Gurbani. It refers to Gurbani itself. I think in fact that it's a pretty sad state of affairs that today we have random people who often have no jeevan of their own going on stage trying to explain what Gurbani means. They themselves don't know it. Katha before used to be about history eg. Suraj Parkash, etc. Only a "jeevan vala" Gursikh can do "katha' on Gurbani because only they have experienced it.

f) Anti sant sentiments among the jatha

The fact that Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh has referred to many Singhs as "Sant" is proof that there is no absolute hatred of the term. But at the same time, most Singhs in the Jatha (and in the Panth in general I think) that the Sant culture we see today where any random person starts being called "Sant 108" is foolish. It is making a joke of the term "Sant". Do you disagree?

g) Disbeleif certains parts(treh charitar) in sri dasam granth.

Find me a single reference in any Jatha literature or any Jatha parchar that has expressed this "disbelief". Or admit you're mistaken.

h) Naam can only japped one certain way- baikhri, madhma, pasanti, para bani.

Singhs in the Jatha believe that the method one begins to jap naam with is taught at the Amrit sinchaar and has been passed down since Guru Nanak's time. When one progresses with this method, one goes through many stages and reaches "ajapaa jaap" . But the method to begin that is given at the amrit sinchaar is only one.

[Charandhoor Singh]

Singh 132, the logic of your arguements is so flawed that I dont know where to even begin with criticism. Good luck Namastang Ji, i hope you have time on your hands lol.

Update:

Well, I have been egged on by a provocative PM from 'AKJ 4eva' so have decided to waste my time replying to your points, watch this space.

[Charandhoor Singh]

I will let Namastang respond to the individual points; this is in reply to what you wrote before your supposed ‘addressing’ of Namastangs points.

I don’t think the defence tactic is going to work, where perverted reforms have occurred and where false ideologies are allowed to flourish, responses and counter arguments to those who love reformist Sikhi have been provided. That does not mean one has failed to recognise the One Universal Divine element with everything, their allegiance to truth and Gurmat philosophy has simply not allowed them allow false parchar to be done.

It should be noted that many of your errors have been the result of not understanding words within their context or out with out of the personal implications those words have for you. This is common flaw of Bhasuria types. Although you have eloquently called Gurbani ‘Spiritual’ you have also failed to so the esoteric value behind tuks of Gurbani. This is why puratan sampradavas and taksals in Sikhi are still very important. I think it was Gyaani Sant Singh Maskin that said there are more than 100 different ways in Japji Sahib has been translated, each one of them is correct.

Hukam is undoubtedly one of the most fundamental teachings of Gurmat.

The word hukam has implications much higher reaching than ‘command’ what you have implied. Exoterically it does mean in simply to obey the command of the Guru, yet we know hukam to mean so much more. It is a surrendering of ones own will into that which is essentially One. You can not out rightly state something is wrong (as you have done at the beginning of your post). The worst thing is, what you have said has already been countered with examples of different kinds of Brahmgianis, you didn’t reply to that but again claimed something so bold. If when someone is fully merged with the hukam what meaning does anything external have? Probably very little. What do you define hukam as, can anything be outwith of hukam? Therefore how can the removing of kakkars be against hukam?

You have also failed to look beyond the exoteric meanings of Rehat. More so than exteriors practises, it is the inner way of ones living. How he thinks, the thought behind every action. When Maharaj says that he loves those who have rehat do you really think he just meant people who wake up in the morning, wear exterior symbols then attend the Gurdwara? For example, the term jati does not mean someone who is chaste in action, but someone who is chaste in thought. What use is suppressing an action when the mind constantly yearns for it. Are those who commit adultery worse than those who constantly fantasise about it but never do it? The more the resist the more it persist. (Of course neither is ‘right’) Having established that inner rehat is more important than outer rehat, a ‘brahmgiani’ cannot be confided simply.

Saying that, I must that I do believe that rehat (exterior) taught by Guru Gobind Singh is an ideal way to leave and a divine code of righteousness to be bound by. Therefore, one someone has merged with the divine and lost sense of material life, how can they be confined by external practises, values and attire? All is within the will of Akaal. Yet, namashkar to those mahapursh who even after achieving brahmgian have lived what they practises and set an example to their shardaloo. This has already been mentioned in Namastangs post, but as I said earlier you didn’t reply to any of these. Please respond to Namastangs points before responding to any of the above as this is a continuation. There is no point in carrying on with discussion if you are not going to address important and fundamental posts such as the one on different types of Brahmgianis.

I have refrained from commenting on keski thus far, all I wish to say is that following on from establishing internal and external values; it is appalling that bibia without keski are looked down upon. It is equally repulsive that people believe because of one item of cloth is missing from a persons head they will be rejected by God. This is the type of mentality of Christian Missionarys that were prevalent in India, I am not surprised that Bhasuria and his counterparts adopted this type of thinking as well as a general value system this is based on Protestant ideals.

I must say I am very disturbed by the belief that Gurbani only has one meaning. Likewise by the way in which AKJ views katha, I was not previously aware of this. As for the Sant thing, I had an AKJ calendar a few years ago that said AKJ is against the use of the word Sant, though that does not deny there are many pakhandis. No one has tried to make this an AKJ bashing thing, but I must say the opinions you have expressed are rooted from classic Bhasuaria thinking and errors.

I hope ‘AKJ 4eva’ (have a happy 4eva life btw) is satisfied and send him a personal invite him to provide an educational response.