~! Danger Of Bhausaria Mindset In The Panth !~

[N30S1NGH]

namastang veer,

my post wasn't directed at you about the harping in this thread...that was a general statement to everyone here, myself included....i think we all do this...we talk about the great mahapurkhs, but have applied very little of their wisdom in our own lives...if this didn't apply to you i'm sorry for offending you...i know it applies to myself....when i write these posts...it is as much to myself as it is for everyone else to see...

make sense, sorry for misunderstanding.

[raj_karega_khalsa]

Namastang, like i said in the pm, your post about the differences between AKJ and DDT was unnecessary...instead of focusing on the differences, think about the similarities, they faaarr outnumber the differences...

[N30S1NGH]

Namastang, like i said in the pm, your post about the differences between AKJ and DDT was unnecessary...instead of focusing on the differences, think about the similarities, they faaarr outnumber the differences...

I only concured with charandhoor singh when he mentioned akj and taksal are different by adding list of crucial idealogical differences..as i said in my previous just because they are different doesnt mean they are wrong or follow manmat...come on think out of box, sikhi is not black and white as you like to perceive - oh just because i listed differences - namstang is a thug, causing disunity between akj and taksal. You may see it as disunity i see it as diversity..you may see the glass half empty, i see it as half full..!

[raj_karega_khalsa]

Knowing about your history of despising the Jatha and reading the tone in your post, I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees your post as an attack on the AKJ...

and by the way,

sikhi is not black and white as you like to perceive

where did you get this idea taht ii perceive sikhi to be black and white?

[N30S1NGH]

QUOTE

sikhi is not black and white as you like to perceive

where did you get this idea taht ii perceive sikhi to be black and white?

//

i dont until you accused me of slandering akj just because i list differences.

[B4ND4]

Totally agree with raj_karega_khalsa veer.

[proactive]

Proactive,

Although you can try and claim your remarks were only against certain Nihangs, you very clearly attacked the belief in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji which is something that all Nihang Singhs and others hold very dear. So don’t accuse me of not reading you posts properly. Try and cover it up as much as you like, but yet again you knowingly attacked all Nihang Singhs.

My relationship with Niddar Singh and his group members is non existent, I have never met Niddar Singh and I hope that makes you feel better.

Unfortunately ‘because Baba Ji said so mindset’ is irrelevant for me. Your ‘research’ has lead you in one direction others has lead them to other conclusions. You may think it is writing of some Singhs other think it is writing of Dasmesh Patshah which is why they pay it high regard. I only mentioned the Sants to highlight that other sampradas and jathas also believe in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji and that you can not isolate Nihang Singhs on this issue as you seem to enjoy doing. I thought that was quite obvious; so unfortunately no luck with trying to discredit my post by accusing using the ‘baba follower’ theory.

What Nihang states that a certain sant was missing from the maryada creation. Why again are you blaming the ‘nangs’ for questioning the SGPC maryada? What Nihang Singh form India have you ever heard try to discredit that maryada? It appears you are making up fairy tales. Again the only purpose of me mentioning this was in reference to your claim of AKJ DDT and Singh Sabha being the middle way when they clearly cannot be clumped together as the Jathedar of taksal out rightly rejected that maryada (which I presume constitutes a significant belief of the ‘middle way’) when it was being created. You accuse Nihang Singhs of being an extreme for believing in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji, yet DDT also believe in this but you give them the ‘honour’ (note sarcasm) of being the middle way. Hmmm…. A bit contradictory….

On a side note a Gyani from taksal lineage told me that old copies of the rehat maryada state which individuals were present when the maryada was completed, opposed to modern prints which state all those who participated from time to time. He said by the end of it only 4-5 individuals were left as all others had walked out. I cant comment on this as I have not seen an old copy of the rehat marayada. However, if this is true that there where only a few individuals by the end of it – it kind of throws out the ‘panthik parvan’ argument out the window. Something not for this thread but hopefully someone can look into it.

Simply accusing others of following a ‘because baba ji mindset’ is not what the cause of different opinion is. In fact many AKJ (middle way) do not believe in raagmala because bhai randhir singh didn’t – how many of them have done proper research. I know several youths who have gone to AKJ rensbhais come back and have read a Sikhitothemax translation and said ragmala cant be bani as there is no spiritual meaning to it– they have not bothered to read steeks or listened to katha where the spiritual arth of raagmala is done (i.e. Amir Bhandeer or Sant Gyani Gurbuchan Singhs katha). Yet are satisfied to say something is NOT bani just because they cant understand it, and are comfortable doing so simply because ‘bhai sahib’ (bhai randhir singh - incidentally student of Bhashauria) said so. Is this not equally as bad if not worse than those who blindly follow sants?

The purpose is not to attack AKJ or those who don’t believe in Bani, so don’t take that aspect of it further, theres enough discussion elsewhere on raagmala, nor is it an attack on Bhai Randhir Singh. It is to simply highlight that the same slave-ish mentality exits also in AKJ as it does in followers of babas. Only difference is that in place of whatever sant there is the almighty bhai sahib. Is this not also an extreme? Or is it ok for some people to be extreme? This mentality is not limited to anyone Jatha or religion. Some have full faith in what they are told me living people, others have full faith in what was said by people who have now died – it’s the same thing!!! In fact one is probably worse than the other.

Its quite clear:

A. Although you are now trying to cover it up you attacked a core belief of ALL Nihang Singhs and many other who consider Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji as the writings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji such as DDT, harkhowale lineage etc.

B. Your ‘middle way theory’ is a bit of a farce as is your attempt to clump AKJ and Taksal together.

C. You have contradicted yourself by calling Nihangs extremists for believing in one granth but DDT as middle way even although they believe in the same granth.

D. The slave mentality is not limited to followers of sants, many people are attracted to a Jatha and follow blindly its teachings without conducting their own proper research.

Can I ask what your opinion was on Gyani Sher Singhs lecture?

Gurfateh.

Charandoor Singh,

From discussion of the mindset you have tried to turn this into a debate over Dasam Granth. Gyani Sher Singh's lecture I found to be of the same mindset that accepts anything that his written in Suraj Parkash as the truth without doing an analysis of the writing and coming up with conclusion based on research. His conspiracy theory about the British dressing up people as Sikhs and getting them to disown and question Dasam Granth in order to stop the Sikhs from trying to get back their sovereignity is just ridiculous and just doesn't do his credibility any good. This flies in the face of most evidence that British tried their best to ensure that Sikh followed their religion especially those they wanted to recruit into their army. Either the British were against the Sikh martial spirit in which case they would done their utmost to ban Dasam Granth and ban Amrit Sanchars or they wanted to utilise this spirit and ensure that Sikhs in their armies took Amrit. You can't have it both ways.

Your comment about some Gyani told you that there were only 4-5 people left in the final sitting of the Rehat Maryada committee is just another of the 'baba said this' story. These sorts of conspiracy theories have been doing the rounds lately but the facts are that until the 80s the SGPC was the premier organisation of the Sikhs. None of the Babas who are sprouting everywhere nowadays were able to challenge it at that time and only after the infiltration of the organisation by dushts like Badal has the SGPC gone downhill. None of people who hold great store by challenged the Rehat Maryada at the time but now sensing the weakness of the SGPC they come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories.

Your claim that Nihangs and DDT are close ideologically and to prove this you've mentioned the fact that both believe in Sarbloh Granth. But what about Jhatka and what about Sukha? It's easy to bring out a few similar beliefs but forget about the things that they disagree about. The tendancy to link the Nihangs and DDT together flies in that face of the fact that whereas the head of the DDT gave his life for the sake of the Panth by defending the Durbar Sahib, the Nihang chief was a puppet of the very person who had sent the army in the first place. The people who want to link the two organisations together have been working at cross purposes. The Nihangs preach that Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale was a Nihang before he joined Taksal and as such ate Jhatka and possible took Sukha as well. DDT attempts to bring the Nihangs closer by maintaining links with non-Jhatka and Non-Sukha Nihangs like Baba Nihal Singh.

Can I ask whether you thinking that everything that is written in Books such as Suraj Parkash, the Gurbilases is 100% correct?

Do you believe that Makka Madine Di Goshti is Bani?

Was Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi written by Bhai Mani Singh?

The rationale for my posts was to point out to Namastang that just as there are Bhasauria types that question everything and think that their mat is better than the Gurus there are also those who accept everything they are told and accept everything that is written in books like Suraj Parkash as 100 truth. The middle way is the ones who combine belief with rationality and use their mat in order to decide whether what is written in these books is in accordance with Gurbani or the biases of the author.

[Charandhoor Singh]

Proactive,

1. I have not at all tried to turn this into a debate against Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. I posted Gyani Sher Singh's lecture in response to the comments you made about missionaries doing a 'Sterling Job'? Did I not make that clear? You seem to be in the habit of missing the obvious and looking into too far into something without understanding what I write.

2. Again why are you hitting out with the'Baba said this story', I simply mentioned that I was told by a Gyani and that I cannot commnent much on it as I have not seen the evidence myself. Dude why hit out with the same weak arguement? Your are playing your broken record in the wrong store.

3. Historical texts cannot be perfect like Gurbani, however, they are a very important part of the Sikh Tradition. I agree they should be read with intellect, however that does not mean simply diregard everything YOU dont belive in or is not according to YOUR mat. It is pretty unlikely there has ever been a text written where the bias of the author has not played a part. However, if Gur-nindaks like Prof Surjit Singh are saying that bania within Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji were undheard of throughout Sikh History, the fact there are the dates given in historical texts certainly do challenge such statements - hence the importance of Sooraj Parkash and other historical texts. The Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi is not something I have researched in depth so therefore I cannot given an opinion on it, whether or not it was written by Bhai Mani Singh, like all historical texts I do believe it will still have some important worth. Writings not directly by the Gurus, but recordings of teachings given by the Gurus are probably not 100% accurate - but that does not void them of important spirtual value. I believe literature is an important part of every tradition, saying that I would agree it cant be 100% accurate but this should not lead us to deny what worth it does have.

4. Similar idealogy doesnt necessarily mean similar practices, furthermore I dont think I outrightly state that the two have similar idealogy. I simply stated that both believe in the authenticty of Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.

Most taksalis choose not to eat Chatka, yet influential figures such as Gyani Thakur Singh Ji have commented on why it is legitimate for Nihang Singhs to eat Chatka. If you listen to katha of Taksali Kathavachik Bhai Jungbeer Singh you will find that he also makes references to Sukhnidhan. Boprai Taksal is much closer to Nihang Singhs than Mehta Chownk, under the current mahant there are some differences but under the previous mahapursh that was mahant there (Vaid Ji) there was not much difference between the local taksalis and Nihang Singhs. Even then Mehta Chownk particpate in many samagams organised by the Budha Dal, infact there is now a tendency for Budha Dal and Mehta Chownk and Budha Dal to organise events together - akhand paths, seminars etc. Rara Sahib has also been strengthening its links with the Budha Dal. Also you will find that nearly all jathebandi give tremendous respect to and attend samagams organised by Baba Bidhi Chand Dal - who currently have a strong reputation from practicing Chatka more than any other Nihang Singh Dal. Therefore, saying that DDT has stronger links with non sukha drinking and non chatka eating Nihang Singhs is an outright LIE !!!!!

Your reference to the events of 1984 doesnt really have anything to do with idealogy, it was a historical event. Its just a desperate attempt to highlight differences between DDT and Nihang Singhs just as people begin to see that there are actually similarities. That both can trace their origins to Guru Gobind Singh Ji and that both do share a lot in common, and not to mention that a lot could be achieved if noth worked together. Events of the past do not have to dictate events of the future.

5. Because there is some disagreements in the origins of Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh doesn't create any tention between the Nihang Singhs or taksalis in India, althought it certainly has created friction outside of India with individuals who associate themselves themselves with either samprada' outside of India. I have heard old taksalis saying that before Bhai Randhir Singh died he asked Sant Kartar Singh as jathedar of Gurus taksal to forgive him for not believing in Ragmala. I am sure this is something those associated with AKJ or any other offshoots of Randhiria Da Jatha will deny this, and I cant say I have come across any great evidence to support this belief. Point its; its not something which gets in the way of any opertaions between AKJ and Taksal (which only really happen outside of India anyway). People have differences and learn to live with them, something which you cant seem to tolerate when it means having to coexist with Nihang Singhs. Whether or not

By they way you failed to address most points I made regarding your earlier post. I think I have addressed all points you have brought up so heres a few things that still need clarification on:

- Your attack on ALL Nihang Singh, taksals and samprada' that believe in Sri Sarbloh Granth Ji. Nihangs Singhs are extreme for believing in 'Lord of the Ring types stories' about Granths, yet you have called DDT the middle way when they believe in the same granth.

- The clumping together of AKJ, Taksal and Singh Sabha when the evidently differ greatly on important issues (I am not saying there are not similarities and that both shouldnt work togeter). Yet, you scream in horror when any similiarities are made between DDT and Budha Dal, Mind you, many people I spoke to in India from various sides believed this was one of the main reasons from groups in India so strongly opposing the akhand path of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - they were scared of the what would happen if the Budha Dal and DDT carried on working together.

- Slave metality not limited to any one group of people. You cant say it exits in one jatha but the other jatha is free of it.

Fateh

P.S. An appeal to all those who will indulge in this discussion: please do not give into the temptation of simply argueing against/for ; sukhnidhan & Chatka, Kesh/Keski, raagmala, attacking different personalities and any other issues which are either not related to this topic or will decrease the quality of discussion. Doing so will just take this topic down to the level of where nearly all other semi-intellectual threads on this forum have ended up.

[N30S1NGH]

Terisharan, as charandhoor singh mentioned lets not devalue this discussion into keski vs kesh being kakar debate and get the topic closed. If you want to talk about this, please create another topic with my claim i ll contribute to it.

Few points to clarify (read it word by word carefully):

1. Its historical fact that teja singh bhausaria made a keski as mandatory, now being mandatory as singh132 pointed earlier doesnt meant as kakar. I pointed out earlier- one can clearly look at the time frame of theory keski being kakar took birth (either by research or inflluence i ll leave the readers to decide) and bhausaria pushing it as mandatory, either bhasaria influenced the beleif that keski was kakar or other way around, the reason i m saying is this because before teja singh bhausaria this keski being mandatory or keksi being kakar was non issue, non-existent, it came with tat khalsa package.

2. If you feel strongly that teja singh had no influence over keski being kakar i cannot convince you otherwise, just please ignore my 5th point in orginal posts and lets stand united try to find solutions to dangerous bhausaria mindset which is discussed throughly all along this thread.

Last thing i want to do today is debate today its sri guru nanak dev ji gurpurb, lets celebrate sri guru nanak dev ji gurpurb, we are sons of same father, lets continue this vichar /discussion or debate further in different thread on a different day.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Parkash Dehra di vadiya hoviaie to all.

[TeriSharan.]

I agree with u namastang!!