~! Danger Of Bhausaria Mindset In The Panth !~

[Singh132]

It should be noted that many of your errors have been the result of not understanding words within their context or out with out of the personal implications those words have for you. This is common flaw of Bhasuria types.

I’ve spoken for the first time in this thread and without knowing a thing about me, you’ve decided to label me a “Bhasuria type”. Why? Is this the enlightened Gurmat you’re promoting? Is this the way you’ve decided to fight off the dogmatic and intolerant ideology you see in Sikhi? As far as I can see, you are in fact acting intolerant and dogmatic. I haven’t labelled you or Namastang anything, so why do you feel so free to label me? Especially in the context of a whole thread bashing “Bhasaurias”, labelling me one is essentially an attempt to marginalize me and any comments I may make. This isn’t vichaar you’re trying to do, it’s bullying.

What do you define hukam as, can anything be outwith of hukam? Therefore how can the removing of kakkars be against hukam?

When Guru Sahib has himself said that “hukam” cannot be described, then who am I to try? I’m a simple person. Guru Sahib when he gave amrit said to keep kakaars at all times. All Gursikhs receive amrit on this condition. Even a child can tell you that a promise made is a promise that should be kept. Guru Sahib says the same thing when he says, “bachan karay tai khisak jai, bolay sabh kacha”. A Sikh can reach any spiritual height but he can never be equal to Satguru. He will always be a Sikh. And for all Sikhs, Guru Sahibs “aagiyaa” or rehit is essential.

I have no doubt that there are many people who walk on the path of spirituality who follow no outer rehit at all. But Gursikh Spirituality is the spirituality of utter humility and surrender to Guru. So the Gursikh path of spirituality is where the Gursikh can be immersed in the Divine but at the same time considers himself nothing but the obedient servant or Sikh of his Satguru.

If we say that removing of kakaars is permissible, then what if someone says “I am a realized soul. I can even shave my head.” What will we reply? Will that be ok? What if someone says they no longer need Guru Granth Sahib or Sangat? Will that also be ok?

Having established that inner rehat is more important than outer rehat, a ‘brahmgiani’ cannot be confided simply.

I don’t see inner rehit and outer rehit as mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. The reason someone has outer rehit is linked to the inner rehit of wanting to obey Guru’s bachan. Who is a brahmgyani? Can you or I determine it unless we are ones ourselves? I have no metre to measure it. I do however have Gurbani which tells me that every bachan of Guru Sahib is to be obeyed completely. This is the only thing I know. I can also gather that a real “brahmgyani” will indeed by “confided” by these bachans.

it is appalling that bibia without keski are looked down upon. It is equally repulsive that people believe because of one item of cloth is missing from a persons head they will be rejected by God.

I don’t think anyone should look down on anyone else. I do believe that rehit is important however. Can a bibi without a keski be spiritual? I think so. But that doesn’t mean that keski isn’t a rehit. Bhai Daya Singh Rehitnama clearly tells that a bibi should tie her kes in a jooraa on top of her head and not leave it in a braid. Guru Kian Sakhian from 1790 say that Guru Gobind Singh said keski is a kakaar. The issue is only whether keski is a rehit for women as it is for men. I think based on the evidence, it is.

No one has tried to make this an AKJ bashing thing, but I must say the opinions you have expressed are rooted from classic Bhasuaria thinking and errors.

Respectfully brother, I think that your repeated attempts to label anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a sign of intolerance. In this context, it’s ironic that you despise the “Bhasaurias” for their intolerance but at the same time practice it yourself. Reflect on it. I am not a Bhasauria and reject their mangling of Gurbani, their beginning of the practice of pad-chhed and their attempt to distort Gurmantar. But if you insist of trying to label me, then it is your khushi.

[Matheen]

Singh132: thanks for not resorting to the name-calling and insults that this thread is destined for.

Apart from the text you mention (is it online?) are there any other historical references to Keski as being a Kakkar? I have notice the Treh Mudreh mentioned in Sarbloh Granth Sahib and a few other texts as well but never have i come across Keski as a Kakkar. Not even during Sangat of Mahapursh.

You also claim that Nihung Singhs accept Keski as a Kakkar, I beg to differ but feel free to prove me wrong.

I realise that the rules of this forum may not allow it, but these things must be discussed as evidenced by the fact that the main causes of disunity in the Panth today are the Raagmala and Keski issue. It's got to the point that even the youth scene which was once unified and doing well is fragmented over things like this.

[Charandhoor Singh]

Gurfateh

I am sorry but I didn't label you or anyone else as anything. I simply highlighted that some of the rationale you provided for your logic is common of Bhasauria type thinking. Not an attempt to judge you or anyone else, simply an observation of the views you have expressed. I think your getting a bit emotional paji, saying that the mistake you make a common mistake with gurbani that is the same mistake that Bhasaurias make is hardly bullying.

I am sure you are a good guy, but as stated, the way in which you think Gurbani should be interpretated is something that is very dangerous and a view which become predominant during the bhasauria period.

Its not the intolerance of the Bhasuaria I despise, its their perverted reforms I am against.

I have not tried to label anyone anything. Also i did say it was necessary to first respond to the post regarding different types of Mahapursh before carrying this aspect of the discussion further.

[Charandhoor Singh]

Matheen if you witness a Budha Dal amrit sanchar they say that those who take khande pahul da amrit should always have a blue keski. The Panj Pyarai conduct checks to make sure all the Singhs have a white kacherra and blue keski. The Budha Dal Rehat maryada clearly mentions kesh as kakkar but also says you should have a keski.

[Singh132]

You won't find mention of "kakaars" in very many puratan sources. Guru Kian Sakhian from 1790 is one exception. It was written by Sarup Singh Kaushish based on bhatt vehis in his family.

Nihangs & Keski: I read some time ago in a Nihang piece of literature that they accept blue keski with kes as mandatory. I have also heard from some other Singhs that this maryada is given. Frankly I'm not hung up on the term 'kakaar'. If someone doesn't consider it a kakaar, it doesn't bother me. As long as they treat it like one ie. on the body all the time, then there is no problem. Old Taksali Singhs and Nihang Singhs do keep this maryada.

I think it's sad that we have so much hatred between Gursikhs. The internet lets people do it. We can be nameless and faceless hate mongerers who are accountable to nobody. I truly feel that these controversies shouldn't divide up like they do. These have almost become gang affiliations. So much so that the "other side" is often not even given the respect owed to another Sikh. That's really too bad.

These disputes that you've mentioned (ragmala and keski) can be lessened if not resolved if we sit down respectfully in front of one another and listen. If nothing else, we can at least then understand where the other person is coming from and appreciate why the believe what they do, even if we can't agree to it ourselves.

Gursikhi teaches respect and tolerance. But I see it less and less in our young people on all sides of these debates.

Charandhoor Singh,

Thanks for your reply and I appreciate your clarification. Lets all try to use words that aren't designed to pinch each other. At the end of the day, I have confidence that if I ever needed help on the street you'd stand with me and I would stand with you. I have confidence that we both recognize Guru Gobind Singh as our spiritual father and so it's only a matter of time before we and all other Sikhs recognize each other as brothers. We may not agree on everything, but let's pledge to honestly discuss our differences and try to understand each other, rather than marginalize or dismiss each other.

[Matheen]

For 100s of years, the different groups of Singhs have lived together like brothers. It's only recently that the Bhasauria mentality amongst some has changed this. Which is what this thread is about.

Some forget that ultimately, Sikhi is an individual's path to Akaal Purkh. There will always be differences amongst us, but narrow mindedness and, frankly, superiority complexes don't let us live and let live.

[OhTwadi]

.

[N30S1NGH]

Gurfateh Singh132,

Long time no talk-shalk yaar. Good to hear from you in this thread.

//Before I address the points below, I want to say that Rehit is not optional for any Gursikh at any stage. The mark of a Gursikh is to be "hukami" or follow hukam. Who was at a higher spiritual stage than Guru Gobind Singh? But he adopted Khalsa Rehit. Same way, Gursikhs like Baba Gurbachan Singh and Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh reached very high spiritual stages but never compromised on rehit. Because this is a promise a Gursikh makes to the Punj Pyaaray. That promise cannot be broken no matter what the avasthaa. //

Rehit has two parts, outer and inner rehits.

Outer rehit- 5 K's- Refrain yourself from 4 kurahits- eating meat, having sexual intercourse(bhog bilas) outside marriage, cutting/trimming/shaving kesh, taking drugs, maintaining abek and outer bibek.

Inner rehit- doing panj banis, doing simran jap via gurmantar, mool mantar, doing gurbani vichar, discussing adyatamik (spiritual) school of thoughts, learning languages ie- sanskrit, farsi, urdu, persian, braj basha, sadhu basha to understand scriptures, learning bhram vidiya, have seva bhavna and do seva, have virtues- compassion, nonviolence, be in god's will, humility,pateince, contenment, truth to combat- 5 vices- lust, anger, attachment, greed, ego , observe your mind/thought process/study it and with simran eliminate thoughts, anxeity.

For ablikhes both inner and outer rehit are important. However in bhramgyan avastha, many of very famous sikh mahapursh depending on their nature didnt felt an need to follow some parts in outer and inner rehit and still follow gurmat sidhant from "bhramgyan angle", if you are unsure what that gurmat sidhant is, look no further, read no further my bakvas, books written by soo and soo sant or bhai sahib, just read sri akaal ustat, all the kandan of karam kaand its bluntly there. If you thinking guru ji is reffering to karam kands done by hindus not sikhs around that time or will be doing in future, you are sadly mistaken. Karam kands and shariat rituals - wearing kakars most difinately needed for jaigaso/abhilkes so kakars are constant reminder of any wrong doings but right at this time we are talking about bhramgyanis, its not needed for them.

As sukhmani sahib says explaining status of bhramgyani:

braham giaanee lae dhhaavath bandhhaa ||

braham giaanee kaa anth n paar ||

braham giaanee kaa sagal akaar ||

braham giaanee aap nirankaar ||

Guru maharaj and his ladlaie Bhramgyanis cannot be bound to maryada. Very logically speaking- in a school its only students requires read through rules of text book not the teachers but some teachers being concerned students might go astray, also read through and follow through rules of text book such teachers are called danaie/ Purshutam Maryada Mahpursh such as sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale/Bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji.

There are some elements in outer rehit ie- bibek, wearing kakars and inner rehit- learning languages, observing your mind/thought process/studying it which are exceptional from cases to cases as in such elements are there as a rehat to get you to God but they are not God themselves...once person is in turiya avastha/sam avastha. He/she is not bound to follow certain elements in both outer and inner rehit.

Now lets talk about guru gobind singh ji maharaj, putting rules/maryada on mahapursh is morakhta but putting rules or maryada on sri guru gobind singh ji- nirankari jot in sargun saroop is MAHA morakhata. I ll give two historical examples of how sri guru gobind singh ji adapted outer garb by his own hakum/ by his own mauj/ and by his own masti.

1. When sri guru gobind singh ji clapped his hand as uch da pir, he wore traditional muslim dress.

2. When sri guru gobind singh ji started nirmale samparda, he wore a traditional phagva sadhu color and sent 5 singhs who also wore phagva sadhu color to kashi, banares.

We(Sikhs) have started judging our khasam Guru by own little mats(standards). We got people who start rejecting relics of maharaj and bachitar natak by questioning the act of Guru. Why did he felt a need to write a autiobiography of himself? he cannot wear seli topi.

We judge our khasam guru according to our own standards, that nirankari jot who came into this world to break shackles of soceity (shariavaad, bhraminvaad) can dress in which ever way they want, they dont your premission nor the rehit like you must wear dumala or dastar applies to them. I cannot beleive sikhs restricting their own guru maharaj act by the rehit maryada in rehit namas which were written gurmukhs so that jaigaso can stay in rehit (free from sins) maryada(remeber death).

Question to people- Guru Maharaj who made all this sristi, rehat maryada does his own rules apply to him? maryada is for students, stopping applying maryada's to guru(Teacher). Have you ever heard of physics teacher, completing exams along with his students in the class rom? no he is the one marks the exams.

What if Guru Sahib give us darshan in livaaj(dress) of almast fakir(contary to most people mindset of how Guru dressed like ie- bibeki, 9 inch kirpan etc etc), dastar to test us(sikhs).. is my sikh got to avastha of advait(non duality)/ bhagat namdev where he saw God in Dog and every where?

What if Guru Sahib comes to the house of Sikh in form of gareeb(poor person) to test his sikh,.. did my sikh reached the state "free" from dvaish(partiality) towards other human regardless of their dharam? would we able to recnognize him?

Guru Ji can take whichever form he wishes in sargun form to test his Sikh because Guru ji is a nirankari jot... what scares me or send shivers down to my spine that we sikhs may even reject our own Guru as "kafir" because we have certain idol in our mind who guru would have dressed like and start idiolising that imaginary idol by that we start judging Guru Sahiban with our standards(little mat and buddhi), narrow minded views.

//As for keski kakaar: Please refer to Guru Kian Saakhian which clearly says keski was given by a kakaar. This is a puratan source. Other Bhatt Vehis say the same thing. Interestingly, Nihang Singhs still say that kes with keski is the kakaar. Unless rehit is different for Singhs and Kaurs, then keski is mandatory. //

First of all, as i responded to appardhi post, i asked him references for guru ji adorned dastar on mai bhago not as keski as kakar references. I have no intention making this thread as keski vs kakar but since you eagerly gave me the sources for keski as kakar which i never asked for, i like to point debate kesh as kakar,keski as kakar has been discussed many times before on sikhsangat/sikahwareness as well other pro kesh/keski debates on various forums. But to keep it short and simple on your query above, read amritpal singh amrit veer ji respond to this:

http://www.amritworld.com/questions/rahat_4.html

a) emphasize on vikayaran being authority on gurbani

Are you suggesting Viyaakaran isn't an authority for interpreting gurbani? What do you think the aunkarhs and sihaaris in words are there for? I doubt it's there for decoration alone. Using viaakaran, you learn the meaning of the words and you don't have 25 different people trying to read 25 different meanings into those words. By learning viyaakaran, you empower the individual to interpret and learn Gurbani as opposed to relying on someone else to feed meanings.

Sorry I never meant to say viyakaran doesnt hold any authority at all when translating gurbani. When i meant by above - viyakaran is not only authority to interpret gurbani. Its important but at same time- uthanka, adhyatamic arths as equally important. Vikhayaran alone can be used to interpret other shaastar granths but NOT dhur ki bani- sri guru granth sahib where connotations, theology framework have to be understood before translating gurbani. Otherwise we fall in same trap as prof sahib singh did went on rejecting baniya and bhatts using his own standards/insecurites and little box.

Why would i be against vikayaran? grammar is important but just as important is uthanka and adyatamic arths, you be suprised to know prof sahib singh's who is consider god like figure when it comes his teeka of sri guru granth sahib, his vidya gurdev was nirmala sant who taught them vikayaran. I ll get you his name if you like.

Do you have any response to Svaiyay M: 5 kay which tells us "Siri Guru Sahib Sabh Oopar. Karee Kirpa Satjug jin Dhroo par. Sree Prehlaad Bhagat Udhreeang. Haso kamal mathay par dhareeang." It clearly means it was Guru Nanak's blessings on Dhroo and Prehlad. If you are pressing puraatan approach so much, why don't you look at all the Janamsakhis which say clearly how the Bhagats met Guru Nanak and became his Sikhs? Why don't you mention that the Goindval Pothis, wherever Bhagat Bani comes up, say "Bhagat Babay Kay" ie. Bhagat of Baba (Guru Nanak). There is no doubt that these Bhagats were very elevated souls before meeting Guru Nanak but why do you insist on trying to take away from theglory of Guru Nanak which is recorded in Janamsakhis and other sources which clearly say that these Bhagats became his Sikhs after recognizing him as the Satguru?

We already talked about this until cows got home, i discussed this with many times before with you and as well bijla singh... now i m at the point where let the sangat decide for themselves after read the discussions i had with you and bijla singh in the past. I have already posted my stance on different context of satgur along with bhai gurdas ji varan which also talks about satgur came as ram chandar ji, sri krishan maharaj, vashudeva along with quote from sri dasam granth sahib ji on avtar.

I think me and you are on the same boat, we are looking at sri guru nanak dev ji as same sharda bhavna. Irony of all this is we both agree sri guru nanak dev ji was nirankari jot/shabad roop/sargun roop yet coming from two different spectrums.

i m looking at Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji not as standalone prophet but an nirankari jot= vahiguroo which have transcedented into many avtars (read taksal/nirmale literature on avtars) including sri guru nanak dev ji in sargun saroop. But you however think of sri guru nanak dev ji as nirankari jot but in form of standalone sargun saroop/shabad roop which have blessed all the bhagats, including sri ram chandar ji, sri krishan ji.

As pheena explained it fully:

I agree with you veer that there is only ONE True Guru, but this True Guru is Anaami. I said what I said, because you had used the words Guru Nanak Dev as being the Sole Guru. Now I simply could've misunderstood you (semantics), but i was getting the impression that you were implying that the body that was born in 1469 to be the Sole instance of Avtaaran of the Nameless Divinity. That there existed no such instances before or nor will any after? /I agree with you veer that there is only ONE True Guru, but this True Guru is Anaami. I said what I said, because you had used the words Guru Nanak Dev as being the Sole Guru. Now I simply could've misunderstood you (semantics), but i was getting the impression that you were implying that the body that was born in 1469 to be the Sole instance of Avtaaran of the Nameless Divinity. That there existed no such instances before or nor will any after?

NO other religion even talks about Sachkhand. No one before Guru Nanak mentioned it. If you think that getting to Sachkhand is possible without parsaad of Guru Nanak, I think you need to look again at what Gurbani says.

just because no other dharam mention the state of union with vahiguroo as "sachkhand" does not nullify the fact - state of union is not described in other dharams, it just means different dharams have different words for same state for it- eg- hakikat, turiya avastha, ebadat ka nasha.

The meaning of Gurbani is spiritual and depends on the person reading/hearing. The words however often have a single meaning. This meaning is clarified by the Viyaakaran. Please disprove it.

Here is an example- Gurbani talks about the term- rataie, the same term has two different meanin one meaning is love as described by guru amar das ji in his bani and one meaning refers to blood in shabad by baba farid ji.

Do you know what "sabh te uttam har ki katha" means? Gurbani is in itself katha of Vahiguru. The katha mentioned in Gurbani NEVER refers to a human being giving a lecture about Gurbani. It refers to Gurbani itself. I think in fact that it's a pretty sad state of affairs that today we have random people who often have no jeevan of their own going on stage trying to explain what Gurbani means. They themselves don't know it. Katha before used to be about history eg. Suraj Parkash, etc. Only a "jeevan vala" Gursikh can do "katha' on Gurbani because only they have experienced it.

Gurbani is in itself har ki katha for bhramgyanis, for joe blow singh like us it has to be simplified, whether its simplified in form of teekas, steeks, katha's are all parvan in guru ghar. Just because you dont agree with random people being allowed to speak on gurbani does not mean you should bandi parchar against katha. Katha is long going tradition within sikh gurdwara's, when they were rough times, singhs would sit and listen to bhramvidya katha/atamgyan katha all aligned with gurmat and get their confidence/esteeem up/bir ras/shakti/shakta up. If it wasnt for katha done by mahapursh, you and me and others wont be talking here. We probably be sunneted(sunnut) by turkhs.

The fact that Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh has referred to many Singhs as "Sant" is proof that there is no absolute hatred of the term. But at the same time, most Singhs in the Jatha (and in the Panth in general I think) that the Sant culture we see today where any random person starts being called "Sant 108" is foolish. It is making a joke of the term "Sant". Do you disagree?

I agree sants word is hijacked by thugs but at same time so the terms- bhai sahib, chardi-kalah, prof, ustad...instead of targetting these thugs red handed, we have created home baked special guidelines who should be real sant and who isnt for eg- any sant who have no problem of others to matha taik him is fake sant, and rest who stay gupt is real sant. So instead of try finding solution to real problem, anti-sant campaigners have created chain reaction/insecurity and sense of parnoia. Dont' you agree?

Find me a single reference in any Jatha literature or any Jatha parchar that has expressed this "disbelief". Or admit you're mistaken.

I do admit i may be mistaken in this, i havent come across with any literature but only came across with one singh who was inspired by jatha thought treh charitar cannot be bani. i m sorry i shouldnt jumped on the gun.

Singhs in the Jatha believe that the method one begins to jap naam with is taught at the Amrit sinchaar and has been passed down since Guru Nanak's time. When one progresses with this method, one goes through many stages and reaches "ajapaa jaap" . But the method to begin that is given at the amrit sinchaar is only one.

We also talked about this already, i wish you luck with your beleif, my beleif is always been you can get to same state by different jugtiyas eg- shabad surat marg, vairaat upasana, nirgun upasana by- sam(one vision), mind concentration and bodh(gyan). Also in the past and even now amrit sanchar organized by samapardava's. jaigaso were given naam jugtiya based on individual avasthas.

Gurfateh Ji

[N30S1NGH]

Anyway going back to the topic now, I was going through amritworld site, came across with an interesting question asked to amrit veer ji-

source: http://www.amritworld.com/questions/sects_3.html

Question : - What was the 'Panch Khalsa Divaan'?

Answer : - The 'Panch Khalsa Divaan' was a group of some people, which was founded in SAMVAT 1962 (1905 AD). The head office of PKD (Panch Khalsa Divaan) was in 'Bhasaurh', near Dhoori (in Punjab), so they are called 'Bhasaurhiya'. (Now in 'Panthak' circles, everyone, who opposes Sri Raagmaala or Sri Dasam Granth, is called 'Bhasaurhiya', whether he belongs to PKD or not). Baabu Teja Singh lived in Bhasaurh. He was one of its founders. Actually, Teja Singh Bhasaurh was the main person in that group.

The PKD tried to publish a 'Beerh' of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, without Bhagat Baani and Sri Raagmala. They called it 'Hazoori Beerh'. Though, they could not be successful to do so, but they published Sri Guru Granth Sahib without 'Raagmaala' and sent its copies to different islands. All this was done secretly. Actually, they wanted to show that the copies of Sri Guru Granth Sahib without Raagmaala were available everywhere. By doing this, they succeeded to create doubt about Sri Raagmaala.

When someone noticed that the copies of Guru Granth Sahib are published without Sri Raagmaala, then the Sikhs protested against it. In 1918 AD, Maharaja Patiala issued an order.

After the public agitation and the order of the Patiala government (Bhasaurh was in Patiala state), they stopped to publish Guru Granth Sahib without Raagmala. Actually, no printing press was ready to do so. The PKD , then, published the Gurbani in five volumes and named them as 'Gurmukhi course'. They did not publish these Baanis in these volumes: - Raagmala and Bhatt Swayye.

They included two more shabds in 'Keertan Sohila'. These shabds were, "Mundaavani Mahla 5 Thaal vich tin vastu" and "Tera Keeta Jaato naahee".

They added some baani from Sri Dasam granth Sahib in these volumes. These baanis were: - 'Jaap', 'Shabd Hazaare' (without 'Mitar Piyaare Noo'), '10 Sawayye', Akaal ustat, Giyaan Prabodh, 33 Sawayye, Chaupai 'Hamri karo haath dai rachha'. All other Baani of Guru Gobind Singh was rejected by them.

When the Sikhs did not accept even these volumes, PKD published another volume and named it as 'Special Gurmukhi Course'. Now they added these Baanis in it: - 'Bhatt Baani', 'Bachitra Naatak', 'Chaubees Avtaar', 'Khalsa Mahma' and 'Zafarnaama'.

On 15 July, 1928, a meeting of Sikh organizations and personalities was held on Sri Akaal Takht Sahib. On August 6, 1928, Baabu Teja Singh Bhasaurh was excommunicated by Sri Akaal Takht Sahib.

Kahan Singh Nabha was working behind the curtains. He published a letter to mislead the people.

The PKD believed that while preparing 'Amrit', 'Pataase' should not be used to make it sweet. So, The PKD used not to put 'Pataase' in 'Amrit'.

They read these 'Baanis' during 'Amrit Sanchaar': - Jap Ji Sahib, Jaap Sahib, 10 Swayye, Rahraas Sahib and Keertan Sohila.

They believed that there are FIVE 'bajar ku-rahats': - 1. Eating 'kuththa', 2. Cutting hair, 3. Adultery, 4. drinking wine etc, and 5 having the company of the people, who commit the four 'bajar ku-rahats' mentioned above.

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[Singh132]

However in bhramgyan avastha, many of very famous sikh mahapursh depending on their nature didnt felt an need to follow some parts in outer and inner rehit and still follow gurmat sidhant from "bhramgyan angle",

My problem with this is that we are in no position to judge who is a Brahmgyani and who is not. Guru Sahib didn’t say anywhere that Rehit is optional depending on avastha. My point remains the same: who was a higher avastha than Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee? And he himself asked for amrit and kept Rehit.

Guru Sahib has said “Rehit pyari mujh ko Sikh pyaara naahi”. Look at the place of Rehit. When Baba Harnam Singh Rampur Kheray Valay decided to do Sukhmani Sahib instead of Jaap Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh would not speak with him.

In fact, we have been referring to Mata Bhag Kaur’s story where Guru Sahib tied a dastaar on her. The story is that Mata jee in her avastha had stopped caring about her clothes and they had fallen apart. Guru Sahib went specially to Mata jee and said she must always have at least dastaar and kacherra. She was not above rehit even at her avastha.

Now lets talk about guru gobind singh ji maharaj, putting rules/maryada on mahapursh ismorakhta but putting rules or maryada on sri guru gobind singh ji- nirankari jot in sargun saroop is MAHA morakhata. I ll give two historical examples of how sri guru gobind singh ji adapted outer garb by his own hakum/ by his own mauj/ and by his own masti.

1. When sri guru gobind singh ji clapped his hand as uch da pir, he wore traditional muslim dress.

2. When sri guru gobind singh ji started nirmale samparda, he wore a traditional phagva sadhu color and sent 5 singhs who also wore phagva sadhu color to kashi, banares.

Both these examples are not violating any maryada. If any Singh did these things, there would be no Tankha. But in both examples, I’m not sure where the source is.

Nirmalas actually historically were known to wear white dress originally. But this is an aside.

Rehit of Guru Gobind Singh is not any Shariat. That is an insult to Guru Gobind Singh. His Rehit is something that obviously greater.

But I can tell you a story that shows Guru Gobind Singh himself was a strict adherent to maryada and Rehit. Are you familiar with the story of Guru Gobind Singh jee at Dadu Dwar? When Guru Gobind Singh tipped his arrow to the shrine of Pir Dadu, the Sikhs stopped him and said this was a violation of Maryada because Sikhs cannot revere any shrine of the dead. Guru Sahib was very happy and said that they had passed the test. He said that Khalsa was now ready. Guru Sahib asked for a Tankha to be put on him. The Sikhs did indeed put a small Tankhah on Guru Sahib himself.

Guru Sahib through this example wanted to show that even he was not above or exempt from Rehit. With all due respect, if we follow the philosophy you are suggesting, the Sikhs would have said “oh, it’s against rehit, but he is another avastha. Who are we to question?” But Guru Sahib has taught his Sikhs that no one, not even he, is above rehit.

My point is that Guru Sahib has given a very high place to Rehit and we as Sikhs can never be exempt from it.

viyakaran is not only authority to interpret gurbani. Its important but at same time- uthanka, adhyatamic arths as equally important. Vikhayaran alone can be used to interpret other shaastar granths but NOT dhur ki bani- sri guru granth sahib where connotations, theology framework have to be understood before translating gurbani. Otherwise we fall in same trap as prof sahib singh did went on rejecting baniya and bhatts using his own standards/insecurites and little box.

Brother, the Viyaakarn in Gurbani is unique and created SPECIALLY by Guru Sahib for Gurbani. Punjabi and Gurbani viyaakaran are totally different. There are some Shabads in Gurbani that are only understood in the light of Viyaakarn. An example would be Ramkali Sudd. I also don’t know that Prof. Sahib Singh rejected Bhatt Bani. He has given a translation of it. I’d be interested to see where he rejected it.

As for your comments on Guru Nanak: I think the only difference between your thinking and mine is that I believe Guru Nanak, being the Aad Satguru only came in full avatar in 1469 but earlier worked through different agents. Only after 1469 did he reveal Gurmantar openly.

I recall Bhai Freed some time ago posted a picture and quote from a Janamsakhi. I thought I’d re-post it here. Look at the status Guru Nanak is given. This hasn’t been started by the “Bhasaurias” but is in Puraatan Tat-Gurmat. The JanamSakhi says: "Baba Nanak with Bhagat Kabir. Kabir’s Words: “Guru Nanak is Eternal through the ages. Kabir is the small ant follwer. Hearing the message of the Perfect Satguru, the mind was in bliss. The giver of Salvation is Baba Nanak. Ramanand is very small (in comparison)…."

just because no other dharam mention the state of union with vahiguroo as "sachkhand" does not nullify the fact - state of union is not described in other dharams, it just means different dharams have different words for same state for it- eg- hakikat, turiya avastha, ebadat ka nasha.

Honestly speaking, someone who doesn’t know may claim Heaven is Sachkhand. People who reach Gyan Khand, seeing all the Parkash will say this is the highest. But Guru Nanak has revealed to us that place this is only “Gur prsaad” and reached by Gur Shabad. I personally believe it is different than anything any other Dharam has described.

Here is an example- Gurbani talks about the term- rataie, the same term has two different meanin one meaning is love as described by guru amar das ji in his bani and one meaning refers to blood in shabad by baba farid ji.

I never said that one word can NEVER have more than one meaning. But in the example you’ve given, “rat(u)” usually means blood and in one instance in Gurbani it means “colour”.

Some bani like Ramkali Sad can only be interpreted in the light of Viyaakaran. Viyaakaran is created specially by Guru Sahib for us to understand Gurbani. It is a very important tool. Some shabads are only opened by it.

Don’t get me wrong. I agree that history, etc. and experience can be used to understand deeper meanings. But Viyaakaran is a major tool DESIGNED by Guru Sahib. Not by anyone else.

Sant Issue: I think that Sant is used far to frequently and abused in Sikh Panth today. We need to fix it. I think using this term as commonly as we do now is wrong. Should we fix it? Of course.

Jatha and Dasam Granth: If you read Bhai Sahib’s books, you’ll note he has quoted from Dasam Bani very extensively. He hasn’t rejected it anywhere. If some Singhs in Jatha do reject it, then it is his own choice. Jatha has no policy on it. Please remember this for the future.

Naam Jugti: We’ve discussed this before. I believe that there is one jugtee that all abhilakhis need to be given. If they are all accepted by Punj Pyaaray as candidates for amrit, then they MUST have met some minimum requirement and for this reason, they are given the method that has been described in many sources. Beginning with this method, some people might in one instant get to ajapaa jaap stage and another might have to use this method for many years before progressing.