~! Danger Of Bhausaria Mindset In The Panth !~

[khalistan_zindabaad]

"It's strange that some people don't mind using words such as psycho missionaries and thereby undermine the missionary colleges of Punjab who are doing a sterling job there but when I mention Buddha Dal or sections of it that have an extreme mindset then its defamation! "

With all due respect what qualifies you to judge the 'Budha Dal mindset'. What research have you done and what time have you spent with the Budha Dal (not a few random blokes in the UK).

Also nice attempt to associate the DDT and AKJ when infact DDT in India is much closer to the Budha Dal. And if they were close to the Singh Sabha or the 'middle way' then im sure Sant Gurbuchan Singh Bhinderanwale would not have outrighly refused to attend any meetings when the 'middle way' Akal Takht maryada was being formed last century, but ofcourse we all know that he rejected the meetings as he knew that were just going to shorted the maryada of Gursikhs and make it easier.

More importantly; please tell me what text the Budha Dal believes in that DDT dont belive in. Im am guessing you are referring to Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji, in yet another one of your cheap attacks on Nihang Singhs which you never tire from. Well it well known that Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh and many older Singhs from taksal and santhiya of this, also theres a video on google video of Baba Harnam Singh (whether or not one believes hes jathedar) he cery clearly states the view of taksal on on Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji. Not just DDT other taksals and sampradas such as Harkhowal mahapursh also fully believe in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji. So please be aware when you try to isolate the Budha Dal from the rest of the panth and slander their beliefs that you are actually also attacking many well established and well serving organisations in the Panth such as DDT.

As for the Sikh Missionary College (Ludhiana), it doesnt matter how many publications or courses they teach when what they are teaching is reformed Sikhi based on their own and not Gurmat, i.e. challenging authenticity of Dasam Pathshah's bani. Psycho missionaries may be referring to 'offshots' of the Sikh Missionary College (who many think actually belong to the core of Sikh Missionary but have been disassociated) such as Kala Afghana and Ghaggha.

Gyani Sher Singh highlights the serious loopholes in missionary in his short 15 min lecture, definetely worth a listen. I am sure you will enjoy the lecture as there are interesting references from the works of Gyani Dit Singh. The quote from Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderanwale that he mentions is just too classic.

http://www.santsipahi.org/media/Gyani%20Sher%20Singh.mp3

Gurfateh

The strangest thing is about to happen. . . wait for it. . .

.... im agreeing with you. lol. . .that recording is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sikkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk, its really good and shuts up, sum of these psycho missionary valeh and other jathas. . .its really good, i think every1 shud listen to it. the bit about sant jee is wiked also

[khalistan_zindabaad]

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਤੇ ਅਰਥ ਸਮਝਣੇ ਤਾਂ ਦਰਕਿਨਾਰ, ਬੁਜ਼ਦਿਲ ਆਦਮੀ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸੁਣ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ. ਇਹ ਕਾਇਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ. ਇਸ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੇ ਇਕ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਹਾਥੀਆਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਚਿੰਗਾਰਾਂ, ਕਿਰਪਾਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਟੁਣਕਾਰਾਂ, ਤੇ ਘੋੜਿਆਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਰਕਾਬਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਅਵਾਜ਼ਾਂ ਸੁਣਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਸੰਤ ਜਰਨੈਲ ਸਿੰਘ ਭਿੰਡਰਾਂਵਾਲੇ

[H 108]

This has been an insightful topic... How would you go about exterminating this Bhausaria mindset ?

[THE WARRIOR]

This has been an insightful topic... How would you go about exterminating this Bhausaria mindset ?

You cant it’s a choice people have made; they want to think and behave a certain way and have a certain mentality. Even if we think its wrong we don’t have a right to exterminate freedom of opinion and choice, if we do we become the very thing we were trying to exterminate in the first place.

[proactive]

Charandoor Singh,

If you had bothered to read my post you would have understood that I wrote a section of Buddha Dal. Ones who are allied to Niddar and his nangs. Perhaps you could enlighten us of what you're connection is with the UK Nangs?

Sarbloh Granth has been discussed before and this thread just proves what the naive and 'because baba says so' mindset, so and so Baba says it's Bani so it must be bani. This is where the whole belief in the infallibility of Babas falls down. These Babas were Pardhans and Secretaries of Sant Samaj and many of them actively sat with fake Babas who were later discredited, so there's goes the 'Baba says it's true' excuse. I have read most of what has been written about Sarbloh Granth and I believe in the side that says that it is not Bani and is the writting of a Granth Sukha Singh from Patna Sahib. This is what Pandit Tara Singh Narotam put forward and that is what most Sikh scholars believe. If you want to believe that something is Bani apart from Guru Granth Sahib because a Baba say's it's bani then that is up to you.

Can you tell me whether you believe Makke Madine Di Goshti is Gurbani, Is Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi written by Bhai Mani Singh?

As for the Rehat Maryada committe they couldn't approach each and every Jatha for their views and they tried their best to get as much input as possible but with all the conspiracy theories going around mainly started by the Nangs about the Rehat Maryada committee then no matter how many Sants they contacted they nangs would still bring up some other Sant they never got in touch with.

Warrior,

Faith and intellect (reason). Where reason ends faith begins.

[THE WARRIOR]

“Faith and intellect (reason). Where reason ends faith begins.”

So where does the prejudice fit in?

[Charandhoor Singh]

Proactive,

Although you can try and claim your remarks were only against certain Nihangs, you very clearly attacked the belief in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji which is something that all Nihang Singhs and others hold very dear. So don’t accuse me of not reading you posts properly. Try and cover it up as much as you like, but yet again you knowingly attacked all Nihang Singhs.

My relationship with Niddar Singh and his group members is non existent, I have never met Niddar Singh and I hope that makes you feel better.

Unfortunately ‘because Baba Ji said so mindset’ is irrelevant for me. Your ‘research’ has lead you in one direction others has lead them to other conclusions. You may think it is writing of some Singhs other think it is writing of Dasmesh Patshah which is why they pay it high regard. I only mentioned the Sants to highlight that other sampradas and jathas also believe in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji and that you can not isolate Nihang Singhs on this issue as you seem to enjoy doing. I thought that was quite obvious; so unfortunately no luck with trying to discredit my post by accusing using the ‘baba follower’ theory.

What Nihang states that a certain sant was missing from the maryada creation. Why again are you blaming the ‘nangs’ for questioning the SGPC maryada? What Nihang Singh form India have you ever heard try to discredit that maryada? It appears you are making up fairy tales. Again the only purpose of me mentioning this was in reference to your claim of AKJ DDT and Singh Sabha being the middle way when they clearly cannot be clumped together as the Jathedar of taksal out rightly rejected that maryada (which I presume constitutes a significant belief of the ‘middle way’) when it was being created. You accuse Nihang Singhs of being an extreme for believing in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji, yet DDT also believe in this but you give them the ‘honour’ (note sarcasm) of being the middle way. Hmmm…. A bit contradictory….

On a side note a Gyani from taksal lineage told me that old copies of the rehat maryada state which individuals were present when the maryada was completed, opposed to modern prints which state all those who participated from time to time. He said by the end of it only 4-5 individuals were left as all others had walked out. I cant comment on this as I have not seen an old copy of the rehat marayada. However, if this is true that there where only a few individuals by the end of it – it kind of throws out the ‘panthik parvan’ argument out the window. Something not for this thread but hopefully someone can look into it.

Simply accusing others of following a ‘because baba ji mindset’ is not what the cause of different opinion is. In fact many AKJ (middle way) do not believe in raagmala because bhai randhir singh didn’t – how many of them have done proper research. I know several youths who have gone to AKJ rensbhais come back and have read a Sikhitothemax translation and said ragmala cant be bani as there is no spiritual meaning to it– they have not bothered to read steeks or listened to katha where the spiritual arth of raagmala is done (i.e. Amir Bhandeer or Sant Gyani Gurbuchan Singhs katha). Yet are satisfied to say something is NOT bani just because they cant understand it, and are comfortable doing so simply because ‘bhai sahib’ (bhai randhir singh - incidentally student of Bhashauria) said so. Is this not equally as bad if not worse than those who blindly follow sants?

The purpose is not to attack AKJ or those who don’t believe in Bani, so don’t take that aspect of it further, theres enough discussion elsewhere on raagmala, nor is it an attack on Bhai Randhir Singh. It is to simply highlight that the same slave-ish mentality exits also in AKJ as it does in followers of babas. Only difference is that in place of whatever sant there is the almighty bhai sahib. Is this not also an extreme? Or is it ok for some people to be extreme? This mentality is not limited to anyone Jatha or religion. Some have full faith in what they are told me living people, others have full faith in what was said by people who have now died – it’s the same thing!!! In fact one is probably worse than the other.

Its quite clear:

A. Although you are now trying to cover it up you attacked a core belief of ALL Nihang Singhs and many other who consider Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji as the writings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji such as DDT, harkhowale lineage etc.

B. Your ‘middle way theory’ is a bit of a farce as is your attempt to clump AKJ and Taksal together.

C. You have contradicted yourself by calling Nihangs extremists for believing in one granth but DDT as middle way even although they believe in the same granth.

D. The slave mentality is not limited to followers of sants, many people are attracted to a Jatha and follow blindly its teachings without conducting their own proper research.

Can I ask what your opinion was on Gyani Sher Singhs lecture?

Gurfateh.

[Charandhoor Singh]

How to go about undoing the work of Bhasaria and his devlish followers is to reverse the manmat reforms they made... i.e. nitnem banis (choupai & rehras) were shortened by them in the most disgusting way. Thats a good starting point.

[N30S1NGH]

You are right in the sense that some sampardha have gyan but this is also the case with mainstream Sikh organisations. Don't judge Singh Sabha or Missionaries by what the SGPC or what Badal does. Just as you shouldn't judge some of the Babas by the kartootan of some of the so-called Babas in Punjab.

I am not judging singh sabha or missionaries by what sgpc or badal doing. Here is one of my personal expereinces:

I went to vancouver to visit, i was invited by singh sabha there to help them out with ideas on website. While i was giving them ideas, during my stay in vichar session, these guys came up some ridicolous stuff, first they targeted specific bhai gurdas ji varan which i forgot which one and said this // doesnt align with gurbani sidhant, then i recally clearly them doubting shabad hazare 10- mitr pyarea nuo haal muridan da kehna. I clearly recall they specifically said- this shabad cannot be guru's bani, because guru ji would never refer vahiguroo as mitr. what kind of twisted logic is that?

The whole sikh missionary courses on based on prof sahib singh interpretations, they see gurbani from an logic/sceintific/protestant angle. In once and while they use bhai kahn singh nabha as the references thats it.

On contary, puratan samparda's have managed to describe gurbani, gurbani sidhant/gurmat in more depth. Samparda's have provided theological framework, various context, various interpertations of gurbani as opposed to one line translations based on vikayaran. Samparda' have managed to do more khoj of gurbani as one can see it via many teekas published by them. They have spent all their life to do one teekas or write about gurbani not just 2 years courses in missionary. They all know more than one language- farsi, hindi, sanskrit, urdu, sadhu, braj basha, gurmukhi, sindhi so they can decipher banis sri dasam granth, realease their translations. They have provided an convincing vichar which proves gurbani either from sri guru granth sahib ji or sri dasam granth sahib is never self contradictory, there are differences in the context, categories. Gurbani updesh is divided in three categories- utam, madham, Kanisht.

Missionaries on the other hand, as soon they find what appears to be contradiction instead going in depth, they start doubting gurbani or started attaching their own twisted mat, their classic explanation to gurbani when you asked them- oh this is methaphor cannot be taken literally, i think they should be ghazal gyaks and do sehari instead of doing translations of gurbani.

I am not saying this out of pride in samparda's, these are actual finding i came across in my khoj in sikhi. I tried to be unbias in my khoj as you seen whatever wrong eg- caste discrimination is wrong in samparda's whether its written in khalsa dharam shastar or not, it doesnt make any difference to me or influence me.. i ll never try to justify it, my consceince will not allow it.

True Sikhi lies in between, it's a mixture of faith and intellect.

I agree with you totally on this part, its very similiar to my beleifs.

Also nice attempt to associate the DDT and AKJ when infact DDT in India is much closer tothe Budha Dal.

i also agree with this statement by charandhoor singh. AKJ and Damdami taksal may seem cousins because of their joint efforts during harsh times of 1980's. But If you look at them deeply they have some major idealogical differences besides the obvious - keski, ragmalla etc. Here are list of some of them :

- Taksal beleives in gurbani have more than one interpertations, based on uthanka, anubhav parkash/adhyatamic arths whereas akj beleives gurbani can only be interperted on vikhayaran if you read bhai joginder singh ji talwara work.

- Taksal beleive in katha along with all samparda's as mukhvak from gurbani- Sub tu utam har ki katha..., in fact first thing taksal jathedars emphasises to its students after santhiy is learn jeevani of guru's from soraj parkash granth.

- Taksal emphasize on learning different languages so that students can read and understand sri dasam granth and other spiritual school of thoughts. I dont know about mehta but bhindrankalan this was heavily emphasized looking at the fact taksal has nirmale influence ie- before sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale jathedars. This is hardly found in akj, but looking at the efforts of bhai kulbir singh from tapoban, hopefully this will not be the case in future.

- Taksal beleive in avtarvad (vahiguroo transcedents its attributes to avtars) in sikhi which aligns with gurbani sidhant as opposed to missionary who beleives guru ji was less than prophet cannot find perform miracles. However akj beleives that sri guru nanak dev ji was a standalone prophet rest are all fake and failed, sachkhand was open by sri guru nanak dev ji only keshadhari who have taken khanda da amrit is allowed there.

- Taksal beleive in importance of sants and taking updesh from them but akj dont feel need to take updesh from them.

- Taksal beleive in reciting the numbers of bani with sehaj so that slowly but surely jiv gets in ajapa jap mode, akj beleive in naam drita (madma, pasanti, para bani etc)- jap on shabad- Vahiguroo. Akj put major emphasizes on japing on naam- vahiguroo. However taksal beleive same avastha can be attained by mool mantar and other guru ghars mantars- Ikongkar(Bij mantar)/ Mala Mantar- Japji sahib, Parapoorbla mantar- Satnam

thats it for now.

[Jai Tegang!]

Very informative thread.

The bhasuria mindset is in such strength because they haven't been challenged enough.

Sadhu Sants don't do this because it's a big drain in their anand. Debating with a person hell-bent in their twisted view of Sikhi is impossible to convince , so the "debate" ends up going nowhere. But still, i think in the greater interest of traditional Sikhi, these new-age scholars need to be called-out. We are well aware of their tactics to spread their manmat (a word truly befitting their "parchar"). Most of it comes down to their inablility to digest what Gurbani says.

More transaltions of katha from mahapurakh vidhans of the past and present; more translations of Gurbani katha done by these vidhvaans of Specific Siri Guru GRanth Sahib ji's banis and Dasam Granth banis would be really beneficial for the youth who are constantly in the midst of doubt becasue of the heavy onslaught from these manmatiyai.