Dr Zakir Naik Justifying Death For Apostates

[dalsingh101]

The verse which is NOT in the SGGS ...goes along something like the whole of mecca was spining.

The tuk is from vara of Bhai Gurdaas Jee. I assume you don't believe in vaars of Bhai Jee.

But then what do you make of the following. A shabads from Gurbani:

hsq Kylq qyry dyhury AwieAw ]

hasath khaelath thaerae dhaehurae aaeiaa ||

Laughing and playing, I came to Your Temple, O Lord.

Bgiq krq nwmw pkir auTwieAw ]1]

bhagath karath naamaa pakar out(h)aaeiaa ||1||

While Naam Dayv was worshipping, he was grabbed and driven out. ||1||

hInVI jwiq myrI jwidm rwieAw ]

heenarree jaath maeree jaadhim raaeiaa ||

I am of a low social class, O Lord;

CIpy ky jnim kwhy kau AwieAw ]1] rhwau ]

shheepae kae janam kaahae ko aaeiaa ||1|| rehaao ||

why was I born into a family of fabric dyers? ||1||Pause||

lY kmlI cilE pltwie ]

lai kamalee chaliou palattaae ||

I picked up my blanket and went back,

dyhurY pwCY bYTw jwie ]2]

dhaehurai paashhai bait(h)aa jaae ||2||

to sit behind the temple. ||2||

ijau ijau nwmw hir gux aucrY ]

jio jio naamaa har gun oucharai ||

As Naam Dayv uttered the Glorious Praises of the Lord,

Bgq jnW kau dyhurw iPrY ]3]6]

bhagath janaa(n) ko dhaehuraa firai ||3||6||

the temple turned around to face the Lord's humble devotee. ||3||6||

Why o why take that literally?

Lots of shabads use analogies and metaphors from my limited understanding. But that aside, could this possibly be Bhagat Nam Dev explaining how in effect religion found him, despite being discouraged and turned away from religious institutes? Also, reference to discrimination he faced over caste in his own life and the change that occurred as became an accepted religious leader?

As Naam Dayv uttered the Glorious Praises of the Lord,

the temple turned around to face the Lord's humble devotee.

These lines could possibly be reference to an appreciation of Bhagat Nam Dev's kirtan abilities which were/are important considering that is the central focus of worship in many temples and Gurdwaray today. This may have helped break some of the barriers? My point is that it doesn't necessarily need to be taken literally, which I think many people do, and frankly is dangerous. But as I have generally gone by the English translation I recognise the limitations and danger of misinterpretation by myself and the interpretor. Thanks though, it is a very very interesting short shabad.

As regards Bhai Gurdas. I've tried reading his vaars. One conspicuous thing that strikes me is the heavy and creative use of analogies and metaphors (amongst other things) in his poetry. His work is a treasure trove of the use of various poetic devices. He also uses examples drawn from wider contemporary Panjabi folklore a number of times at least. He is clearly communicating to his audience with stories/concepts that they may be familiar with.

So, when you say you assume I don't believe the vaars, I presume you mean literally? I try and contextualise what I read, I think it is more rewarding that way. Hell yes, I avoid reading ANYTHING literally like that. That is what pindus do. I thought Sikhs were supposed to do vichaar on Gurbani.

Someone please tell me what vichaar means EXACTLY because I am baffled now. Have I got it all wrong?

[Mehtab Singh]

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji stated in Undithi Duniya that Gurbani is not a fairy tale that it would have to use metaphors.

[dalsingh101]

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji stated in Undithi Duniya that Gurbani is not a fairy tale that it would have to use metaphors.

Why bring "fairy tales" into it. Who is saying Gurbani is fairy tales?

[ISDhillon]

When I used to be a member of the islamic board I remember debating about various lectures given by zakir, his debating style is always loaded, I remeber he gave a lecture once about halal versus jhatka, and he used scientific evidence to a certain point in the discussion to state the method was more ethical as the animal felt no pain, when someone mentioned that certain enzymes are secreted in the body as a response to fear in the animal when being cut he diverted away from the topic and used dentistry records to prove that humans have canine teeth which have the function of cutting through meat, yet no one asked him about the ethics of eating meat, the crowd did not realise he diverted from answering the question about halal vs jhatka but because he added a bit of science and recalled a surplus of religious texts from memory his error went unnoticed, examine him carefully. His lectures are foolish clappingfest.

[Mehtab Singh]

Why bring "fairy tales" into it. Who is saying Gurbani is fairy tales?

My point is that the Kaaba revolving or the temple turning are not fairy tales, nor are they metaphors.

[ISDhillon]

Why bring "fairy tales" into it. Who is saying Gurbani is fairy tales?

My point is that the Kaaba revolving or the temple turning are not fairy tales, nor are they metaphors.

does anyone here really think that proving a massive religion wrong in the central place of worship is gonna be remembered by the devoted of muslims, i doubt it, throughout history man protects his ego at all costs, to let people know the truth would throw a spanner in the works, what would they do with the kaaba if they knew it was pointless, can you imagine all the travel agents reimbursing all the hajjis for the great scam of gods house.

simple we do not need to engage in these debates if their religion was worthy they would not need to defend it using science they would be contributing to society and loved in turn by the same society.

[Revolutionary]

Lots of shabads use analogies and metaphors from my limited understanding.

Flaw: Sweeping Generalisation

But that aside, could this possibly be Bhagat Nam Dev explaining how in effect religion found him, despite being discouraged and turned away from religious institutes? Also, reference to discrimination he faced over caste in his own life and the change that occurred as became an accepted religious leader?

he didnt desire to become a religous leader of any sort (sorry for picking on your words now lol)

I see your point though

But as I have generally gone by the English translation I recognise the limitations and danger of misinterpretation by myself and the interpretor. Thanks though, it is a very very interesting short shabad.

:TH:

Someone please tell me what vichaar means EXACTLY because I am baffled now. Have I got it all wrong?

OK, mandirs in India are all built in such a way that the entrance HAS to face sunrise - in respect to Surya dev, Indra, the God of Sun, the God of Gods. However, if you go to that one mandir in Bhagat Naam Dev's pind, the entrance is facing sunset! 180degrees

However, gurbani is such a... *sighs*... that it also has a deeper meaning to it.. Maybe you are right about the meaning of Gurbani - you can take that tuk however you want. .Gurbani is personal, as personal as a Guru is to his Sikh. Understand Gurbani according to your avastha(spiritual level) and as you grow, spiritually, the meanings of that same tuk will begin to change. Not just that tuk, any Gurbani!

When you look back and see the difference only then you'll realise how far you've come :s

[OhTwadi]

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[Guest SatwantBeantKehar]

Yet another puerile argument for why places of worship other than mosques are not allowed in islamic countries.