Brainwashing In Sikhi

[THE WARRIOR]

I actually think vamp has raised some valid points of examples of empty rituals. It’s thought invoking and unsettling, good stuff.

"Unsettling?"

if that combination of cliche and poorly thought out attempt to bait doesn't put you to sleep, nothing will.

i may even otherwise, agree with vamp on some issues, if it wasn't so disrespectfully put.

It's inconceivable that he would not know he is being divisive on this forum.

Hidden agendas and conspiracy theories are the flavour of this forum and the mentality of most of its users. The motive or the “bait” as you put it is irrelevant and even the attitude.

In regards to the statement what is relevant is people’s ability to debunk it, dismantle it constructively, people cant. Why? because there is an element of truth to it, so they cannot do it. People are settled because they have created these practices, falsehoods in order to address short comings within themselves and even to create social elite. If you where to remove all the labelling we give to these practices so there is no distinction between the practice and the belief system one would then realise emptiness of the rituals, but because now there is no relationship to the faith and practice it's open to criticism and we jump on it.

[Singhstah]

In regards to the statement what is relevant is people’s ability to debunk it, dismantle it constructively, people cant. Why? because there is an element of truth to it, so they cannot do it.

*ahem* second post in the thread.

[~Preeti~]

hmmm whats so special about eating from an iron plate?

[buddasingh]

I actually think vamp has raised some valid points of examples of empty rituals. It’s thought invoking and unsettling, good stuff.

"Unsettling?"

if that combination of cliche and poorly thought out attempt to bait doesn't put you to sleep, nothing will.

i may even otherwise, agree with vamp on some issues, if it wasn't so disrespectfully put.

It's inconceivable that he would not know he is being divisive on this forum.

Hidden agendas and conspiracy theories are the flavour of this forum and the mentality of most of its users. The motive or the “bait” as you put it is irrelevant and even the attitude.

In regards to the statement what is relevant is people’s ability to debunk it, dismantle it constructively, people cant. Why? because there is an element of truth to it, so they cannot do it. People are settled because they have created these practices, falsehoods in order to address short comings within themselves and even to create social elite. If you where to remove all the labelling we give to these practices so there is no distinction between the practice and the belief system one would then realise emptiness of the rituals, but because now there is no relationship to the faith and practice it's open to criticism and we jump on it.

Vamp was never “bunked” and poster above filled in the blanks to "debunk" him anyway.

To the extent that vamp “can’t be debunked”, it is not because of an element of truth. It is because he has not put forth a coherent argument. If I offer only the illusion of pushing you, I can then point to your inability to resist. There is no scientific rebuttal to thinly veiled insults, half cliché half fiction. The brilliance of what amounts to name calling is indeed difficult to debunk. Style aside, faith also does not adhere to theories of conventional science.

The motive is relevant on this forum. I don’t adhere to any camps that may exist here, but I don’t start a post baiting others with insults.

Warrior, I say you and I “argue on this form for the sake of empty ritual, to address shortcomings within ourselves and even to create a social elite” Debunk this to show there is no element of truth to it. You can’t, does this make our ramblings nothing more than empty ritual?

[Akal Purkh Ki Fauj]

I actually think vamp has raised some valid points of examples of empty rituals. It’s thought invoking and unsettling, good stuff.

Oh no look out here they come...................

[Akal Purkh Ki Fauj]

Is anyone aware if cranford school has burnt down, because all the rats seemed to be out for a another flutter. Either that or Giddars given theM a sevre beating and told them to go get more monkeys for him to batter.

[THE WARRIOR]

I actually think vamp has raised some valid points of examples of empty rituals. It’s thought invoking and unsettling, good stuff.

"Unsettling?"

if that combination of cliche and poorly thought out attempt to bait doesn't put you to sleep, nothing will.

i may even otherwise, agree with vamp on some issues, if it wasn't so disrespectfully put.

It's inconceivable that he would not know he is being divisive on this forum.

Hidden agendas and conspiracy theories are the flavour of this forum and the mentality of most of its users. The motive or the “bait” as you put it is irrelevant and even the attitude.

In regards to the statement what is relevant is people’s ability to debunk it, dismantle it constructively, people cant. Why? because there is an element of truth to it, so they cannot do it. People are settled because they have created these practices, falsehoods in order to address short comings within themselves and even to create social elite. If you where to remove all the labelling we give to these practices so there is no distinction between the practice and the belief system one would then realise emptiness of the rituals, but because now there is no relationship to the faith and practice it's open to criticism and we jump on it.

Vamp was never “bunked” and poster above filled in the blanks to "debunk" him anyway.

To the extent that vamp “can’t be debunked”, it is not because of an element of truth. It is because he has not put forth a coherent argument. If I offer only the illusion of pushing you, I can then point to your inability to resist. There is no scientific rebuttal to thinly veiled insults, half cliché half fiction. The brilliance of what amounts to name calling is indeed difficult to debunk. Style aside, faith also does not adhere to theories of conventional science.

The motive is relevant on this forum. I don’t adhere to any camps that may exist here, but I don’t start a post baiting others with insults.

Warrior, I say you and I “argue on this form for the sake of empty ritual, to address shortcomings within ourselves and even to create a social elite” Debunk this to show there is no element of truth to it. You can’t, does this make our ramblings nothing more than empty ritual?

We move away from the topic to analyse motive and intent. The motive may well have been that of insult and consciously motivated with that intention, so what?

The argument is easy to see, vamp in a nut shell asks some simple questions about the behaviour and practices of some who consider them the practices of the elite, so far from what I can see they have not been addressed. The questions have not had coherent answers, but there are coherent answers to what is being questioned by vamp, historically, socially, culturally etc etc. So why don’t I answer them I hear you say! simple I don’t practice them.

The umbrella question would have to be the motive and intent of the practitioners who blindly have developed much a mentality and practice such rituals without awareness of the root cause of such actions, in which also is imbedded the answer.

“faith also does not adhere to theories of conventional science”

I would say devotion does not adhere to theories of conventional logic. Because devotion is more powerful than any religion, faith, science or logic …the question being what part is devotion and what part is deception. Devotion is limitless the others have limitation to some degree or another.

“Warrior, I say you and I “argue on this form for the sake of empty ritual, to address shortcomings within ourselves and even to create a social elite” Debunk this to show there is no element of truth to it. You can’t, does this make our ramblings nothing more than empty ritual?”

Consciously there is no motive on my part to create any elitist personality, society, group jatha or whatever. My motive? There are plenty of conspiracy theorists here that could tell you my motive. Essentially my motive is provocation of mind.

[JustME]

erm............yeah thats all very nice and dandy but instead of wasting server space and our/ur time and using Big fancy words and twisting the argument and debate and moulding it into something greater than it actually is....................heres my two cents.................

Religion is perfect......................God is Perfect

WE mess it up........our karams mess it up...............Look for God in yourself first, then look to the rest of the world.....cos if you cant see God in your self then you cant see God in anything..........

Religion will always be under scrutiny and people will have faith in their "own" notion of what is right and wrong.................amongst this God's Way...............God's Law are lost............peoples way to God are different like each person is different..............why try and quantify the "goodness" and "holiness" of an action? when all is Waheguru's Bhana...................this concept holds no value............

Love God....................Live God.............Fall into God...................

Everything else will take care of itself..............

[sunny_love_kirtan]

vamp..

<admin-profanity filter activated> it is?

and same thing again...

eh brian wash nahi but tusi loki hand wash kar ke AKJ de piche pai gaye aa ... lol

and if only naam is the only thing that matters and not the amrit then why did Guru Gobind Singh ji took amrit from panj pyares?

[fresh singh]

Some examples.

Guru Granth Sahib Ji saying that in order to achieve emancipation one must be blessed with Naam.

But lot of Amritdhari's say that you need Naam but also Amrit. Some even say Amrit is Naam and distort bani phrases like 'Amrit Naaam nidhan hai'.

So are u saying we do not need Amrit just Naam ? :gg:

There has been an amrit ceremony since Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s time- charan pahul.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji just changed the ceremony from charan pahul to khande bat di pahul.

"the first injunction of the rahit, you understand, is to take khande bat di pahul."

- Bhai Desa Singh Rahit-nama

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that it is the Rahit what is beloved to him not the sikh. the first injunction of the Rahit is to take khande bat di pahul. so u do not agree with khande bat di pahul therefore u have not taken Amrit, so u are not a beloved of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.