Name Your Pinds

[chatanga]

i am from Doaba as well, my village is Gakhal, near Jalandhar city centre.

[californiasardar1]

Wow. I'm glad someone bumped this thread. Reading through all the posts this nis the conclusion I've got :

England, California and Vancouver = pends in Doaba.

Toronto = pends in Malwa.

Various cities and towns of america = from all over

?

Actually, I'd say California is a pretty good mix. Although Doaba is probably still overrepresented (compared to the proportion of population it is in Punjab), I don't think it's nearly as much as in England. There are lots of people in California with roots in Malwa.

[West London Singh]

Actually, I'd say California is a pretty good mix. Although Doaba is probably still overrepresented (compared to the proportion of population it is in Punjab), I don't think it's nearly as much as in England. There are lots of people in California with roots in Malwa.

You're probably right californiasardar, and you would obviously know more about it than me. But I was basing my observation about California more on the traditional old time communities of Yuba City etc. Since early childhood I have been visiting relatives there each summer and yes, you're right that lately there does seem to be plenty of people from both malwa and majha there. However all the old established community seem to be from doaba, particularly the hoshiarpur Bains clans and jalandhar Johal clans.

I do actually find the whole thing very interesting because its nice for us to know about each other and find out about each other as the Sikh diaspora. For example, I noticed on my travels that the Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysian and massive Indonesian Sikh communities seem to be overwhelmingly from Majha. This is of course reflected in the fact that they originally came to be there as soldiers in the army, and the majhail sikhs were traditionaly regarded as the best soldiers and thus the heartland of recruits. I found the original Sikhs of the banana plantations of Australia to be mostly from majha also but strangely found doaba to be dominant among the New Zealand Sikhs. I've found the Italian sangat to be a very good mix of doaba, malwa and majha, and the same for much of America. I found Toronto to be largely from malwa and vancouver a pretty even mix between both doaba and malwa. England, of course, is doaba central, and although there has increasingly, over the last 20 years been a steady stream of malwais also I've that both they and their children end up speaking the doaba dialect because it is so dominant.

[californiasardar1]

You're probably right californiasardar, and you would obviously know more about it than me. But I was basing my observation about California more on the traditional old time communities of Yuba City etc. Since early childhood I have been visiting relatives there each summer and yes, you're right that lately there does seem to be plenty of people from both malwa and majha there. However all the old established community seem to be from doaba, particularly the hoshiarpur Bains clans and jalandhar Johal clans.

I do actually find the whole thing very interesting because its nice for us to know about each other and find out about each other as the Sikh diaspora. For example, I noticed on my travels that the Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysian and massive Indonesian Sikh communities seem to be overwhelmingly from Majha. This is of course reflected in the fact that they originally came to be there as soldiers in the army, and the majhail sikhs were traditionaly regarded as the best soldiers and thus the heartland of recruits. I found the original Sikhs of the banana plantations of Australia to be mostly from majha also but strangely found doaba to be dominant among the New Zealand Sikhs. I've found the Italian sangat to be a very good mix of doaba, malwa and majha, and the same for much of America. I found Toronto to be largely from malwa and vancouver a pretty even mix between both doaba and malwa. England, of course, is doaba central, and although there has increasingly, over the last 20 years been a steady stream of malwais also I've that both they and their children end up speaking the doaba dialect because it is so dominant.

Yeah, it is interesting to learn about the migration patterns of the Sikh diaspora. For instance, I did not know that Majha Sikhs account for most of the diaspora in Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Australia.

It wasn't until relatively recently that I found out almost all Sikhs who settled in the UK have roots in the Doaba region (and, indeed, I don't think I've personally met a single Sikh from the UK with roots in Malwa). The explanations will vary depending on who you ask. People from Malwa often claim that landholdings were generally smaller in Doaba, so people from that region were forced to consider migration earlier (and due to immigration policy, the UK was the number one option at that time). Of course, people from Doaba would probably counter and claim that they were more educated and that their landholdings, while smaller, were of higher quality and value, so they had the resources to move. I don't know what the truth is, but it's probably somewhere in the middle.

I think you are right about the older Sikh communities in the Yuba City area. However, growing up in southern California, I encountered lots of people who (as I later found out) had surnames found primarily or exclusively in Malwa (Grewal, Sidhu, Brar, Dhaliwal, etc.).

I've often wondered how the different origins of the Sikh diaspora in various areas has translated to the religious practice and preservation in different parts of the world. I've heard people claim that Majha Sikhs are the most religious, Malwa Sikhs are most "culturally Punjabi," and Doaba Sikhs are the most western or "modern." I don't know if that's true, and I don't know where Sikhi is stronger in the west (USA, UK or Canada). It does seem on the surface to me that turbans are more stigmatized in America than in the UK (due to the ignorance of the American people, and the way they confuse us with Muslims). In England, turbans appear to be somewhat fashionable and maybe that's why there's a large population of "trim Singhs" who wear pags but have little or no facial hair ("trim Singhs" are basically nonexistent in the US).

[singher23]

I feel that the the Sangat is strongest in Canada, more in the Toronto area than in BC

[DailyMail]

Interesting thread!

We're originally from Hoshiarpur, now in West London.

I also noticed on my travels to Borneo Malaysia and Singapore that nearly all of the Sikhs were from Majha as well. They were well established communites from martial stock. Their ancestors were policemen who were recruited by the British to bring law and order on the streets of Malaya Singapore. Several gurdwara's in Kuala Lumpur and elsewhere are named "Gurdwara Polis" in recognition of this fact.

[S1khist]

Bharoli, Newanshaire

Nankey...Tahain....

I Live in Toronto, and I have not met anyone from there....loads in the UK though i think lol....

[West London Singh]

Excellent posts guys. Keep it up. It can only benefit us, as a worldwide diaspora, if we learn about each other and get to know each other.

Just to clarify what you said here though, californiasardar :

I think you are right about the older Sikh communities in the Yuba City area. However, growing up in southern California, I encountered lots of people who (as I later found out) had surnames found primarily or exclusively in Malwa (Grewal, Sidhu, Brar, Dhaliwal, etc.).

I've often wondered how the different origins of the Sikh diaspora in various areas has translated to the religious practice and preservation in different parts of the world. I've heard people claim that Majha Sikhs are the most religious, Malwa Sikhs are most "culturally Punjabi," and Doaba Sikhs are the most western or "modern." I don't know if that's true, and I don't know where Sikhi is stronger in the west (USA, UK or Canada). It does seem on the surface to me that turbans are more stigmatized in America than in the UK (due to the ignorance of the American people, and the way they confuse us with Muslims). In England, turbans appear to be somewhat fashionable and maybe that's why there's a large population of "trim Singhs" who wear pags but have little or no facial hair ("trim Singhs" are basically nonexistent in the US).

The Dhaliwals are roughly half half when it comes to malwa and doaba. And the same clan becomes Dhariwal when in Majha. But they all from the same family.

Sidhus do not exist in malwa. Just as Brars do not exist in doaba. Thats because the Sidhus and the Brars are the same. The same blood from the same clan. It is essentially the Brar family but the Brar family is called Sidhu when in doaba. The 2 surnames recognise this and that is why Brars and Sidhus never marry each other. They recognise themselves as the same blood.

[californiasardar1]

Excellent posts guys. Keep it up. It can only benefit us, as a worldwide diaspora, if we learn about each other and get to know each other.

Just to clarify what you said here though, californiasardar :

The Dhaliwals are roughly half half when it comes to malwa and doaba. And the same clan becomes Dhariwal when in Majha. But they all from the same family.

Sidhus do not exist in malwa. Just as Brars do not exist in doaba. Thats because the Sidhus and the Brars are the same. The same blood from the same clan. It is essentially the Brar family but the Brar family is called Sidhu when in doaba. The 2 surnames recognise this and that is why Brars and Sidhus never marry each other. They recognise themselves as the same blood.

You are probably right about the Dhaliwals.

However, you are absolutely wrong when you say Sidhus do not exist in Malwa. Malwa is filled with Sidhus! Brars are in fact a subset of Sidhus (Brar was a descendant of Sidhu). So all Brars are Sidhus, but not all Sidhus are Brars. I've known of Brars who use just Brar, some who use Sidhu-Brar (although the non-Brar Sidhus just use Sidhu, as you'd expect). It has nothing to do with whether they live in Malwa or Doaba. It is true that Brars do not exist in Doaba (which is what I asserted earlier). But there are LOTS of non-Brar Sidhus who live in Malwa (including some of my family). Places like Ferozepur, Muktsar, and Patiala are filled with Sidhus (who write "Sidhu" and not "Brar"). I think there are some Sidhus in Doaba, but there are far more in Malwa.

[West London Singh]

You are probably right about the Dhaliwals.

However, you are absolutely wrong when you say Sidhus do not exist in Malwa. Malwa is filled with Sidhus! Brars are in fact a subset of Sidhus (Brar was a descendant of Sidhu). So all Brars are Sidhus, but not all Sidhus are Brars. I've known of Brars who use just Brar, some who use Sidhu-Brar (although the non-Brar Sidhus just use Sidhu, as you'd expect). It has nothing to do with whether they live in Malwa or Doaba. It is true that Brars do not exist in Doaba (which is what I asserted earlier). But there are LOTS of non-Brar Sidhus who live in Malwa (including some of my family). Places like Ferozepur, Muktsar, and Patiala are filled with Sidhus (who write "Sidhu" and not "Brar"). I think there are some Sidhus in Doaba, but there are far more in Malwa.

Thanks for that. i had no idea. This is how we learn about each other. I can tell you though, Sidhu are a massive clan in doaba. Several Sidhu villages in several different clusters, so when you meet a Sidhu in the diaspora there's as much chance he's from doaba as there is him being from malwa. But of course, I'm only saying that because all the Sidhus i meet in England are from doaba. I'm glad you've told me about their large numbers elsewhere.

A couple of other points...to clarify some earlier points :

The doaba dominance in England actually has 2 different sources, totally by coincidence. Firstly you had the mass doaba emigration directly from Punjab in the 1950's. But then, in the 1970's you also saw a mass influx of east african Sikhs, mostly Ramgharia. As fate would have it, the anscestoral land of most of these east africans, a century earlier, was also in doaba....specifically the Gorya and Nakodar tehsils.

Also, when i mentioned the healthy mix of both malwais and doabites in Vancouver, I should have mentioned that the city also has a decent number of Majha Sikhs, who have come there by way of their homes in Fiji and the far east rather than from Punjab.