What Is True Nimrata?

[AK-47]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh

Sorry to take this off another thread, but I wanted to ask about one specific aspect of that thread.

People talk about what 'avastha' others should have, and say that true gursikhs should have nimrata etc, which is true! But sometimes our notion of what is nimrata does not seem to tie in what guru sahib tells us. Example, gurbani says that a sikh should maal (massage) the feet of a gursikh who sings the praises of vaheguru.

So how can this happen? If the gursikh has 'nimrata' then he would't let anyone touch his feet, or serve him in this way, so how do we comply with this shabad?

I dont know how to link the shabads on here, but guru sahib in one shabad says

Maajh, Fourth Mehla:

I meditate on the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe, and the Name of the Lord.

Joining the Sangat, the Holy Congregation, the Name comes to dwell in the mind.

The Lord God is our Lord and Master, Inaccessible and Unfathomable. Meeting the True Guru, I enjoy the Sublime Essence of the Lord. ||1||

Blessed, blessed are the humble servants of the Lord, who know the Lord God.

I go and ask those humble servants about the Mysteries of the Lord.

I wash and massage their feet; joining with the humble servants of the Lord, I drink in the Sublime Essence of the Lord. ||2||

The True Guru, the Giver, has implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within me.

By great good fortune, I have obtained the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan.

The True Essence is Ambrosial Nectar; through the Ambrosial Words of the Perfect Guru, this Amrit is obtained. ||3||

O Lord, lead me to the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, and the true beings.

Joining the Sat Sangat, I meditate on the Lord's Name.

O Nanak, I listen and chant the Lord's Sermon; through the Guru's Teachings, I am fulfilled by the Name of the Lord. ||4||6||

Here I am assuming that it is the feet of the humble servants of the lord that are being washed. But in our perception of what qualifies as nimrata, this act of having someone wash your feet would be considered hunkari and not an act of a humble person.

So why does maharajh say this?

Also Bhai Gurdas ji says http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=7149

Here he talks about how serving a gursikh is better then various rituals and pilgrimages etc. But then is bhai sahib just giving lip service, or is this actually instructions to sikhs to seve other sikhs? How can we follow this instruction if the person being served is getting hunkar?

Personally i dont think so. I thing true gursikhs/sants whatever you want to call them will know that worms like me NEED to serve them. Their daya/compassion allows them to be served so that perhaps i too can be saved. I dont think this affect their nimrata, because the true sant/gursikh/bhai/baba would be beyond the 'i' and as such ego and praise etc wouldnt effect them.

I guess the ultimate questions is, what is real nimrata.

Please share your vichars and correct me if im wrong.

[xHarinder_singh]

A genuine gursikh wont allow some one to wash his feet etc. but I feel massaging is not an issue, lol.

For example there have been occasions where I have done a long amritvela naam abhiyaas with gursikhs and afterwards we all massaged each other and put oil into each other's hair and did head massage.IT WAS GREAT.

If you have a gursikh wife, u can also do her head massage, nuthing wrong with it.

[Akaali]

Good topic.

[singh_1983]

A genuine gursikh wont allow some one to wash his feet etc. but I feel massaging is not an issue, lol.

For example there have been occasions where I have done a long amritvela naam abhiyaas with gursikhs and afterwards we all massaged each other and put oil into each other's hair and did head massage.IT WAS GREAT.

If you have a gursikh wife, u can also do her head massage, nuthing wrong with it.

bani is perfect....you cant disagree with what bani says mate....if bani says its ok then its ok...........think ak47's last paragraph sums it all up perfectly.....

"I thing true gursikhs/sants whatever you want to call them will know that worms like me NEED to serve them. Their daya/compassion allows them to be served so that perhaps i too can be saved. I dont think this affect their nimrata, because the true sant/gursikh/bhai/baba would be beyond the 'i' and as such ego and praise etc wouldnt effect them."

[JustME]

Gurfateh

A very interesting question..............i guess the first question we have to ask............what is a gursikh?

Gursikh/Gurmukh/Sant/Mahapursh/Braimgyani/ are given a very high darja by Guru Ji, but we seem to have this notion that every person who has taken amrit is automatically a GURSIKH............

Unfortunatly...............how we percieve such people and how Waheguru describes such people are very different..........the notion of a gursikh/gurmuth etc etc etc are so loosly thrown around now that they are seeming to lose their value.............. however if we go by wahegurus definitions....heres a few tuks that signify what exactly a gurmukh is............

gurmuiK jp qp sMjmI hir kY nwim ipAwru ]

guramukh jap thap sa(n)jamee har kai naam piaar ||

For the Gurmukh, the love of the Name of the Lord is chanting, deep meditation and self-discipline.

suK swgru hir nwmu hY gurmuiK pwieAw jwie ]

sukh saagar har naam hai guramukh paaeiaa jaae ||

The Name of the Lord is the Ocean of Peace; the Gurmukhs obtain it.

this shabad i guess realy sums it up

isrIrwgu mhlw 3 ]

sireeraag mehalaa 3 ||

Siree Raag, Third Mehla:

hir Bgqw hir Dnu rwis hY gur pUiC krih vwpwru ]

har bhagathaa har dhhan raas hai gur pooshh karehi vaapaar ||

The devotees of the Lord have the Wealth and Capital of the Lord; with Guru's Advice, they carry on their trade.

hir nwmu slwhin sdw sdw vKru hir nwmu ADwru ]

har naam salaahan sadhaa sadhaa vakhar har naam adhhaar ||

They praise the Name of the Lord forever and ever. The Name of the Lord is their Merchandise and Support.

guir pUrY hir nwmu idRVwieAw hir Bgqw Aqutu BMfwru ]1]

gur poorai har naam dhrirraaeiaa har bhagathaa athutt bha(n)ddaar ||1||

The Perfect Guru has implanted the Name of the Lord into the Lord's devotees; it is an Inexhaustible Treasure. ||1||

BweI ry iesu mn kau smJwie ]

bhaaee rae eis man ko samajhaae ||

O Siblings of Destiny, instruct your minds in this way.

ey mn Awlsu ikAw krih gurmuiK nwmu iDAwie ]1] rhwau ]

eae man aalas kiaa karehi guramukh naam dhhiaae ||1|| rehaao ||

O mind, why are you so lazy? Become Gurmukh, and meditate on the Naam. ||1||Pause||

hir Bgiq hir kw ipAwru hY jy gurmuiK kry bIcwru ]

har bhagath har kaa piaar hai jae guramukh karae beechaar ||

Devotion to the Lord is love for the Lord. The Gurmukh reflects deeply and contemplates.

pwKMif Bgiq n hoveI duibDw bolu KuAwru ]

paakha(n)dd bhagath n hovee dhubidhhaa bol khuaar ||

Hypocrisy is not devotion-speaking words of duality leads only to misery.

so jnu rlwieAw nw rlY ijsu AMqir ibbyk bIcwru ]2]

so jan ralaaeiaa naa ralai jis a(n)thar bibaek beechaar ||2||

Those humble beings who are filled with keen understanding and meditative contemplation-even though they intermingle with others, they remain distinct. ||2||

so syvku hir AwKIAY jo hir rwKY auir Dwir ]

so saevak har aakheeai jo har raakhai our dhhaar ||

Those who keep the Lord enshrined within their hearts are said to be the servants of the Lord.

mnu qnu saupy AwgY Dry haumY ivchu mwir ]

man than soupae aagai dhharae houmai vichahu maar ||

Placing mind and body in offering before the Lord, they conquer and eradicate egotism from within.

Dnu gurmuiK so prvwxu hY ij kdy n AwvY hwir ]3]

dhhan guramukh so paravaan hai j kadhae n aavai haar ||3||

Blessed and acclaimed is that Gurmukh, who shall never be defeated. ||3||

krim imlY qw pweIAY ivxu krmY pwieAw n jwie ]

karam milai thaa paaeeai vin karamai paaeiaa n jaae ||

Those who receive His Grace find Him. Without His Grace, He cannot be found.

lK caurwsIh qrsdy ijsu myly so imlY hir Awie ]

lakh chouraaseeh tharasadhae jis maelae so milai har aae ||

The 8.4 million species of beings all yearn for the Lord. Those whom He unites, come to be united with the Lord.

nwnk gurmuiK hir pwieAw sdw hir nwim smwie ]4]6]39]

naanak guramukh har paaeiaa sadhaa har naam samaae ||4||6||39||

O Nanak, the Gurmukh finds the Lord, and remains forever absorbed in the Lord's Name. ||4||6||39||

This is what a TRUE gursikh is...........a gursikh has the sohjee and his enshrined the name of waheguru inside him/her...................THIS is the gursikh the GuruJi referes to and there im basing the assumption............

when in the company to such an amazing gursikh with such a high avasta, you serve them with utter love and devoution, because the are Rab Da Roop and the phal you must get from that is amazing kirpain itself

jn nwnk gurmuiK prgtu hoie ]4]2]

jan naanak guramukh paragatt hoe ||4||2||

O servant Nanak, the Lord is revealed through the Gurmukh, the Living Expression of the Guru's Word. ||4||2||

erm...............yeah thats it realy...........

bhul chuck maafi

Gurfateh

[AK-47]

Just me penji, i agree with your point that a person would get great phal from serving a true gursikh.

However, i guess what im after is, why would the gursikh let you serve them? By letting you do his/her seva are they agreeing that they are 'higher' then you and that you should serve them? As other brothers have suggested in various discussions, a gursikh is full of nimrata, so how can one filled with nimrata allow himself to be served?

(iv given my view, hoping others will give theirs)

also brother, you say massage etc is ok but not washing the feet? what about ironing their clothes, cooking their food, holding an umbrella for them, driving them around, heating up their ishnaan water (per history). Guru sahib talk about serving the gursikhs over and over. And yet if a person does serve a gursikh then often he is accused of worshipping another human etc. or the gursikh may be accused of allowing people to serve them and hence be acting in hunkar.

bit of a strange contradiction almost, being served as a gursikh versus keeping humble.

[SunSingh]

Gurmat marg is acharj - strange.

High avastha sikhs do kirpa on us by letting us serve them. Remember sakhi of Guru Gobind Singh ji not accepting water from rich boy who had done no seva in his life. service can be used to teach others about Gurmat seva, and to share naam kamai with them as we get some naam kamai from the person we serve. So a person can actually be doing kirpa on us by letting us serve (and letting us serve may be a kind of service in itself :gg: )

Whether a person gets haumai from this or not depends on the person. Some would, others are too humble. Others are completely beyond haumai itself. Baba Isher Singh ji fro example, allowed people to touch his feet, which gave them kirpa. Yet Baba ji had immense nimarta.

Gurbani in numerous places gives permission to serve and touch people's feet as a gesture of resepect. In the Q&A with Baba Jagjit Singh ji Baba ji says it's ok to metha tekh to sants, just like it's ok to metha tekh to parents, it's part of our tradition, so long as we don't do it with ischa (desire) to get something.

[japmans]

Well

In a subtle way, seeking out true gursikhs puts you, the seeker, on a pedestal over others too...

why not close your eyes, treat everyone like a mahaan gursikh, and do everyone's seva to the best of your ability... in order to become "neech tay neech", or "daasan daas", or so forth. why try to discriminate between gursikhs (after all, denoting someone as a 'true' gursikh implies such a thing as an 'untrue' gursikh)

blindly serve humanity?

[AK-47]

Bhai sahib if you look at the shabad i posted it says the 'humble servants of the lord' in other shabads it actually does say words like gursikh, etc and just me penji has given definitions of what maharajh considers a gursikh to be.

So while you are correct that we should serve humanity, at the same time gurbani and in particular the vaar from bhai gurdas ji which i hope everyone has read, specifically says to serve the sikhs of the guru, i.e. true gursikhs.

so in this respect it is good to go out and search for the true ashiqs of vaheguru and do their seva as well. A lot of people seem to assume that sangat will just come to them, or that the people they live around are sangat. But as bani says sangat is where the one naam is remembered. Sangat is only found with good karam i.e. not easily found, and sometimes we have no choice but to search for that virla diamond whose company is true sadh sangat.

sun singh i agree with you, if the great gursikhs didnt let anyone serve them, then the shabads which talk about serving such sikhs would be 'pointless' (sorry couldnt think of another word - obviously gurbani is never pointless, were the fools who dont understand it).

Just a shame that the 'sant bashers' of the modern age seem to accuse the gursikhs of having hunkar if people serve them, even though this is what guru sahib has told us to do. If im getting the wrong end of the stick with understanding the shabads which talk about this, please let me know!

[JustME]

Gurfateh

If we look at the avasta of a sant/braimgyani............we need to look no furthur that ashpadi 7-8 of sukhmani sahib and in itself tells the qualities and vitues of such enlightened souls.....

Here lies the problem.............when people reach such an avasta................the tests that a person who has such a high avasta are very hard.............for example...........a papi like me who loved Snickers chocolates before she took amrit........Maharajs test for me may be on day coming to work and find a massive box of sickers minis in the staffroom table........ :lol: and my test is to ensure i dont give into temptation and eat them (cos they got egg in, for those who dnt know )

But someone doing bhagti for example, there tests are like next level..........they may start to get a following of people around them......and they start bowing down to him...........he has two choices.........1. maya creeps in but he look to waheguru and ask for protection against maya and pray that he does not get hankaar/haumai because and this and realsie that it is not him they are bowing to but waheguru himself.................2. maya creeps in and he starts enjoying the facts that people are bowing to him and in that moment forgets waheguru and starts considering himslef something...................unfortunatly some/most of these fake babeh probably at one stage were doing bhagti..........but bcos kaljug da pehra is so bad, they give into maya and hence theres so many of the fakers running around cos they've lost their kamai.........

But the trues ones see waheguru everywhere...........so when its coming to letting people doing the sewa..............if they are seeing waheguru in everyone..............to them.........its waheguru doing it............if that makes sense...............they dont see, you, me, him, her, them, they see in the jot inside you thats realy doing the sewa..............that being waheguru...........

jh Awpn aUc Awpn Awip nyrw ]

jeh aapan ooch aapan aap naeraa ||

When He Himself was lofty, and He Himself was near at hand,

qh kaun Twkuru kaunu khIAY cyrw ]

theh koun t(h)aakur koun keheeai chaeraa ||

then who was called master, and who was called disciple?

ibsmn ibsm rhy ibsmwd ]

bisaman bisam rehae bisamaadh ||

We are wonder-struck at the wondrous wonder of the Lord.

nwnk ApnI giq jwnhu Awip ]5]

naanak apanee gath jaanahu aap ||5||

O Nanak, He alone knows His own state. ||5||

jh ACl ACyd AByd smwieAw ]

jeh ashhal ashhaedh abhaedh samaaeiaa ||

When the Undeceiveable, Impenetrable, Inscrutable One was self-absorbed,

aUhw iksih ibAwpq mwieAw ]

oohaa kisehi biaapath maaeiaa ||

then who was swayed by Maya?

Awps kau Awpih Awdysu ]

aapas ko aapehi aadhaes ||

When He paid homage to Himself,

iqhu gux kw nwhI prvysu ]

thihu gun kaa naahee paravaes ||

then the three qualities were not prevailing.

jh eykih eyk eyk BgvMqw ]

jeh eaekehi eaek eaek bhagava(n)thaa ||

When there was only the One, the One and Only Lord God,

qh kaunu AicMqu iksu lwgY icMqw ]

theh koun achi(n)th kis laagai chi(n)thaa ||

then who was not anxious, and who felt anxiety?

I guess the point im trying to make is.............what is that thing that makes us hesitate before serving someone who is considered having a high avasta? its OUR Haumai..........we need to work on our own kamai and bhagti by doing as much path, simeran, sewa to build our jeevans...............if we do this is a pure heart..............Nimerata comes naturally.........

Sorry if ive gone off topic...........lol im just a useless babbler.....

bhul chuck maafi!!

Gurfateh!