Punjab Radio

[Guest confusingh]

In clarification, The Gurmukh (one who follows the ways of Guru Ji, one who controls their animal desires and lives according to Gurbani) knows the unstruck (strong flow of) bani, how rare (jani birlo) are those who (ko) understand (arthavai), again this urges Sikhs to gain gian from bani and attain an understanding of Gurbani also. I hope this helps you understand my point.

Confu singh ji

Inner desires or panch doot are not controlled just by saying or reading scriptures. These weaknesses are controlled or tamed only by bhagti. That is why our Gurus have stressed that essence of God relaization is naam simran.So those missionaries like ghagha etc who say naam jaap is a gorakh dhandha know nothing about sikh philosophy. That is the point i was making all along.

'Anhad bani gurmukh jani birlo ko arthavai.'

ARTHAVAI = understand, know and comprehend the meaning of, to intelligently (with a capacity of thought and reason) perceive, is conscious of.

Veer ji, this directly shows us that Guru ji did ask us to gain knowledge of Gurbani, Gian is highly important in our dharam because we should aim to base all our moral actions within the guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, and if we have no knowledge of the message of Guru Maharaj Ji, then how are we able to know how to implemenet moral values in to our everyday life. In order to stay away from the panj vikar we need to understand the messages Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj gives us and use this in our lives with sat, santokh, daya, nimrata and pyaar.

So we should always strive to gain Gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj's message to help us live a moral life and not look to ritualism and such, as this will not gain us mukti, read Guru Ji's ang 471, in reference to Brahmin rituals such as wearing threads the message is that there is no strength within rituals. Sikhi puts values upon good deeds and a person's morals principles and values rather than simply repeating prayers which does not make us moral... In reference to the muslim's 5 prayers in Guru ji's ang 141 it says...

'Karni kalma aakh kai ta musalman sadae.'

Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.

'Nanak jete kuriar kurhai kuri pae. ||3|| '

O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. ||3||

Further within this ang, it is written

'Tao Nanak sarab jia mihramat hoei ta musalman kahavai. ||1|| '

And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||

These quotes are quite self explanatory; they show us Guru ji guided us towards carrying out actions, and not just rely on us saying prayers meaninglessly, we can only carry out moral actions if we understand what these are, we understand what these are by reading Bani and understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and the meaning of Guru Ji's words. If we don't understand what Bani is saying to us then we wouldn't understand the need to be merciful as Guru ji tells us and we are only gaining falsehood.

My point is, Gian is essential within Sikhi as well as Simran, which helps us constantly maintain focus upon and remember who we are living for this is Waheguru, the one who graces every being on the earth. Control of the animal mind and spiritual consciousness is achieved through understanding, hence the term 'arthavai' being used in bani, if we have no understanding of Guru Ji's words then we are unable to effectively follow the message Guru Ji is giving us.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[ghorandhar]

Veer confusing jee, i read your comments about sants, but I dont understand how you would translate all the shabads in gurbani which mention Sants (plural). Sant is the singular is in referance to guru jee but who are all these sants in the plurar?

We all recite Barahmaaha and guru jee says, 'Chet Gobind Aradheeai, hovai anand ghana. Sant Jana mihal payai, rasana naam bhana'. Ang 133. Who are those sant jana? Even if you use Prof Sahib Singh jees translation and not the English ones, he says that the gift of reciting parmatmas naam is obtained by meeting the sants.

Then look in the vaisakh shabad, Vaisakh suhava taa lagai, jaa sant bhetai har sohee. Here its not referring to sants but in the singular. But how can you ignore all the shabads like the one in Chet?

As for science, Its not my subject and I dont have much knowledge of it. However If you want to prove things through through science, how would you prove dhurkee bani? how can Akal Purakh speak through the guru? jasaee mai avai khasam kee bani. If science wont agree with a head coming of a gurmukh and he is still able to continue to fight, what will science say about our belief that the shabad being a revelation? Some things are beyond our understanding and then we try to make the guru and sants like our own low level of spirituality. Science is a good thing to study, however its there to intepret gurbani or sakhia. If we are going to use science to understand gurbani then we have 100s of shabads like ganga kee lehar meri tutee janjeer...

I feel you are taking one aspect of Sikhi (shabad dee khoj) and trying say weigh it with other aspects (such as naam japna) when in fact they are all necessary for a Sikh. You are also guilty of the say crime as alot of other people who say all missionarys are nindaks by writing against all sants.

[Guest confusingh]

Veer confusing jee, i read your comments about sants, but I dont understand how you would translate all the shabads in gurbani which mention Sants (plural). Sant is the singular is in referance to guru jee but who are all these sants in the plurar?

We all recite Barahmaaha and guru jee says, 'Chet Gobind Aradheeai, hovai anand ghana. Sant Jana mihal payai, rasana naam bhana'. Ang 133. Who are those sant jana? Even if you use Prof Sahib Singh jees translation and not the English ones, he says that the gift of reciting parmatmas naam is obtained by meeting the sants.

Then look in the vaisakh shabad, Vaisakh suhava taa lagai, jaa sant bhetai har sohee. Here its not referring to sants but in the singular. But how can you ignore all the shabads like the one in Chet?

As for science, Its not my subject and I dont have much knowledge of it. However If you want to prove things through through science, how would you prove dhurkee bani? how can Akal Purakh speak through the guru? jasaee mai avai khasam kee bani. If science wont agree with a head coming of a gurmukh and he is still able to continue to fight, what will science say about our belief that the shabad being a revelation? Some things are beyond our understanding and then we try to make the guru and sants like our own low level of spirituality. Science is a good thing to study, however its there to intepret gurbani or sakhia. If we are going to use science to understand gurbani then we have 100s of shabads like ganga kee lehar meri tutee janjeer...

I feel you are taking one aspect of Sikhi (shabad dee khoj) and trying say weigh it with other aspects (such as naam japna) when in fact they are all necessary for a Sikh. You are also guilty of the say crime as alot of other people who say all missionarys are nindaks by writing against all sants.

I have not in any of my posts said there is no need for Naam Japna, in fact in my last post I said it should go alongside Shabade Dee Khoj in order to keep a Sikh focused upon what they are attempting to obtain which is Mukti, to reach Waheguru. I have also not used a scientific approach at all, scientifically speaking I wouldn't have faith in God at all if I was to go according to science, it just the words and vocabulary I have chose to use which has led some sangat to believe I am taking a scientific approach to Sikhi; although several people do claim that Sikhi and science can go together and that Sikhi is very logical, I believe Sikhi is logical and makes alot of sense, but I'm not an atheist therefore I cannot take a scientific approach to my dharam.

The term and set up of Sants as we know it now, of equal beings promoted as Sants is one which has a Bhakti influence within it, this is prominent within the Bhakti movement, I cannot be conclusive in regards to meaning, however Sant as a singular, as you said is in reference Guru ji, the plural of Sant could be in relation to true Gurmukhs, I am not ruling that out by any means, all I am saying is the common translation in English of Sant which we use is a wise, considerate, judicious and knowledgeable person, however nowadays this is rather being used as a title and ahankar is being obtained also by these people, as they use it as a pedestal, rather than remaining spiritually detached, well knowledge and tirelessly doing seva, parchaar is not a method of sharing their gian, it is a method of using people as a means of personal gain, perhaps a large dera, several greatly significant 'donations' and these are not the acts of 'sant' as described in Gurbani, i'm sure you'll agree with me.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[ghorandhar]

In clarification, The Gurmukh (one who follows the ways of Guru Ji, one who controls their animal desires and lives according to Gurbani) knows the unstruck (strong flow of) bani, how rare (jani birlo) are those who (ko) understand (arthavai), again this urges Sikhs to gain gian from bani and attain an understanding of Gurbani also. I hope this helps you understand my point.

Confu singh ji

Inner desires or panch doot are not controlled just by saying or reading scriptures. These weaknesses are controlled or tamed only by bhagti. That is why our Gurus have stressed that essence of God relaization is naam simran.So those missionaries like ghagha etc who say naam jaap is a gorakh dhandha know nothing about sikh philosophy. That is the point i was making all along.

'Anhad bani gurmukh jani birlo ko arthavai.'

ARTHAVAI = understand, know and comprehend the meaning of, to intelligently (with a capacity of thought and reason) perceive, is conscious of.

Veer ji, this directly shows us that Guru ji did ask us to gain knowledge of Gurbani, Gian is highly important in our dharam because we should aim to base all our moral actions within the guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, and if we have no knowledge of the message of Guru Maharaj Ji, then how are we able to know how to implemenet moral values in to our everyday life. In order to stay away from the panj vikar we need to understand the messages Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj gives us and use this in our lives with sat, santokh, daya, nimrata and pyaar.

So we should always strive to gain Gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj's message to help us live a moral life and not look to ritualism and such, as this will not gain us mukti, read Guru Ji's ang 471, in reference to Brahmin rituals such as wearing threads the message is that there is no strength within rituals. Sikhi puts values upon good deeds and a person's morals principles and values rather than simply repeating prayers which does not make us moral... In reference to the muslim's 5 prayers in Guru ji's ang 141 it says...

'Karni kalma aakh kai ta musalman sadae.'

Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.

'Nanak jete kuriar kurhai kuri pae. ||3|| '

O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. ||3||

Further within this ang, it is written

'Tao Nanak sarab jia mihramat hoei ta musalman kahavai. ||1|| '

And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||

These quotes are quite self explanatory; they show us Guru ji guided us towards carrying out actions, and not just rely on us saying prayers meaninglessly, we can only carry out moral actions if we understand what these are, we understand what these are by reading Bani and understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and the meaning of Guru Ji's words. If we don't understand what Bani is saying to us then we wouldn't understand the need to be merciful as Guru ji tells us and we are only gaining falsehood.

My point is, Gian is essential within Sikhi as well as Simran, which helps us constantly maintain focus upon and remember who we are living for this is Waheguru, the one who graces every being on the earth. Control of the animal mind and spiritual consciousness is achieved through understanding, hence the term 'arthavai' being used in bani, if we have no understanding of Guru Ji's words then we are unable to effectively follow the message Guru Ji is giving us.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

You talking about the last avaasta (brahmgian) when most of us are on the first avaasta.

Gian Dhain Kich Karam na jana, sar na janaa tere, sabh tee vaada satgur nanak, jin kal rakhi mere.

Gian Dhain Kich karam na jana, nahin nirmal karnee.

Sadh Sangat ki anchal lavoo, bikham nadee jaih tarnee.

Daavaa karna of having gian is not something guru jee taught us.

gurbani tells us to contemplate on the shabad (shabad guru, surat dhun chela) but guru jee noo ardas kar that guru jee will save us because if we contemplate on the shabad, guru jee is saying, maan karoo tudh oppar merai preetam piyari, ham aparadi sad bhool ti tum bakshan hari (raag Bilawal).

With guru jees bakshsish can we be saved from the panj vikar. Contemplation of shabad actually teaches us that I know nothing and the only thing we can do is naam japna and ardas to guru jee that we will be saved. Our own samarat, maat, soujee, soch etc will do nothing even if you wish to call it gian. If our own soch would save us from vikara then the bhaats would not have to write:

Ikh Ardas bhat keerat kee gur ramdas rakho sarnahee.

[ghorandhar]

Veer confusing jee, i read your comments about sants, but I dont understand how you would translate all the shabads in gurbani which mention Sants (plural). Sant is the singular is in referance to guru jee but who are all these sants in the plurar?

We all recite Barahmaaha and guru jee says, 'Chet Gobind Aradheeai, hovai anand ghana. Sant Jana mihal payai, rasana naam bhana'. Ang 133. Who are those sant jana? Even if you use Prof Sahib Singh jees translation and not the English ones, he says that the gift of reciting parmatmas naam is obtained by meeting the sants.

Then look in the vaisakh shabad, Vaisakh suhava taa lagai, jaa sant bhetai har sohee. Here its not referring to sants but in the singular. But how can you ignore all the shabads like the one in Chet?

As for science, Its not my subject and I dont have much knowledge of it. However If you want to prove things through through science, how would you prove dhurkee bani? how can Akal Purakh speak through the guru? jasaee mai avai khasam kee bani. If science wont agree with a head coming of a gurmukh and he is still able to continue to fight, what will science say about our belief that the shabad being a revelation? Some things are beyond our understanding and then we try to make the guru and sants like our own low level of spirituality. Science is a good thing to study, however its there to intepret gurbani or sakhia. If we are going to use science to understand gurbani then we have 100s of shabads like ganga kee lehar meri tutee janjeer...

I feel you are taking one aspect of Sikhi (shabad dee khoj) and trying say weigh it with other aspects (such as naam japna) when in fact they are all necessary for a Sikh. You are also guilty of the say crime as alot of other people who say all missionarys are nindaks by writing against all sants.

I have not in any of my posts said there is no need for Naam Japna, in fact in my last post I said it should go alongside Shabade Dee Khoj in order to keep a Sikh focused upon what they are attempting to obtain which is Mukti, to reach Waheguru. I have also not used a scientific approach at all, scientifically speaking I wouldn't have faith in God at all if I was to go according to science, it just the words and vocabulary I have chose to use which has led some sangat to believe I am taking a scientific approach to Sikhi; although several people do claim that Sikhi and science can go together and that Sikhi is very logical, I believe Sikhi is logical and makes alot of sense, but I'm not an atheist therefore I cannot take a scientific approach to my dharam.

The term and set up of Sants as we know it now, of equal beings promoted as Sants is one which has a Bhakti influence within it, this is prominent within the Bhakti movement, I cannot be conclusive in regards to meaning, however Sant as a singular, as you said is in reference Guru ji, the plural of Sant could be in relation to true Gurmukhs, I am not ruling that out by any means, all I am saying is the common translation in English of Sant which we use is a wise, considerate, judicious and knowledgeable person, however nowadays this is rather being used as a title and ahankar is being obtained also by these people, as they use it as a pedestal, rather than remaining spiritually detached, well knowledge and tirelessly doing seva, parchaar is not a method of sharing their gian, it is a method of using people as a means of personal gain, perhaps a large dera, several greatly significant 'donations' and these are not the acts of 'sant' as described in Gurbani, i'm sure you'll agree with me.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee i made the comment about naam japna because i wonder the impression from your previous post you was not happy with some people doing this in the gurughar you go.

Veer jee, if you visit the pinds in Punjab you will find that majority of the people who are Sikh, visit the large deras you refer to. The rest of the people padhar. Of course there are pakhandi, if there was during guru jees time there will be now aswell. However all we do is concentrate on the pakhandi. If they have maya is that a bad thing and does that make them pandhandi? If you visit Jwadi Taksal in Ludhiana you will see what Sant Sucha Singh jee has done to preserve gurmat sangeet. You cant carry out these projects without money. But soon as a sant has money he is a pakhandi. If the sant sits in a puragh to do bhagati then people start complaining that he is doing what Hindu Sadhus do... So people just contine to find things to complain about. How many Khatavacikhs go to Pinds like the Sants? however no one attacks them.

Regarding the Baraahmaah shabad and sants, i used the following translation: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0133.html

Here is the English one:

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=133

[Guest confusingh]

In clarification, The Gurmukh (one who follows the ways of Guru Ji, one who controls their animal desires and lives according to Gurbani) knows the unstruck (strong flow of) bani, how rare (jani birlo) are those who (ko) understand (arthavai), again this urges Sikhs to gain gian from bani and attain an understanding of Gurbani also. I hope this helps you understand my point.

Confu singh ji

Inner desires or panch doot are not controlled just by saying or reading scriptures. These weaknesses are controlled or tamed only by bhagti. That is why our Gurus have stressed that essence of God relaization is naam simran.So those missionaries like ghagha etc who say naam jaap is a gorakh dhandha know nothing about sikh philosophy. That is the point i was making all along.

'Anhad bani gurmukh jani birlo ko arthavai.'

ARTHAVAI = understand, know and comprehend the meaning of, to intelligently (with a capacity of thought and reason) perceive, is conscious of.

Veer ji, this directly shows us that Guru ji did ask us to gain knowledge of Gurbani, Gian is highly important in our dharam because we should aim to base all our moral actions within the guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, and if we have no knowledge of the message of Guru Maharaj Ji, then how are we able to know how to implemenet moral values in to our everyday life. In order to stay away from the panj vikar we need to understand the messages Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj gives us and use this in our lives with sat, santokh, daya, nimrata and pyaar.

So we should always strive to gain Gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj's message to help us live a moral life and not look to ritualism and such, as this will not gain us mukti, read Guru Ji's ang 471, in reference to Brahmin rituals such as wearing threads the message is that there is no strength within rituals. Sikhi puts values upon good deeds and a person's morals principles and values rather than simply repeating prayers which does not make us moral... In reference to the muslim's 5 prayers in Guru ji's ang 141 it says...

'Karni kalma aakh kai ta musalman sadae.'

Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.

'Nanak jete kuriar kurhai kuri pae. ||3|| '

O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. ||3||

Further within this ang, it is written

'Tao Nanak sarab jia mihramat hoei ta musalman kahavai. ||1|| '

And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||

These quotes are quite self explanatory; they show us Guru ji guided us towards carrying out actions, and not just rely on us saying prayers meaninglessly, we can only carry out moral actions if we understand what these are, we understand what these are by reading Bani and understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and the meaning of Guru Ji's words. If we don't understand what Bani is saying to us then we wouldn't understand the need to be merciful as Guru ji tells us and we are only gaining falsehood.

My point is, Gian is essential within Sikhi as well as Simran, which helps us constantly maintain focus upon and remember who we are living for this is Waheguru, the one who graces every being on the earth. Control of the animal mind and spiritual consciousness is achieved through understanding, hence the term 'arthavai' being used in bani, if we have no understanding of Guru Ji's words then we are unable to effectively follow the message Guru Ji is giving us.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

You talking about the last avaasta (brahmgian) when most of us are on the first avaasta.

Gian Dhain Kich Karam na jana, sar na janaa tere, sabh tee vaada satgur nanak, jin kal rakhi mere.

Gian Dhain Kich karam na jana, nahin nirmal karnee.

Sadh Sangat ki anchal lavoo, bikham nadee jaih tarnee.

Daavaa karna of having gian is not something guru jee taught us.

gurbani tells us to contemplate on the shabad (shabad guru, surat dhun chela) but guru jee noo ardas kar that guru jee will save us because if we contemplate on the shabad, guru jee is saying, maan karoo tudh oppar merai preetam piyari, ham aparadi sad bhool ti tum bakshan hari (raag Bilawal).

With guru jees bakshsish can we be saved from the panj vikar. Contemplation of shabad actually teaches us that I know nothing and the only thing we can do is naam japna and ardas to guru jee that we will be saved. Our own samarat, maat, soujee, soch etc will do nothing even if you wish to call it gian. If our own soch would save us from vikara then the bhaats would not have to write:

Ikh Ardas bhat keerat kee gur ramdas rakho sarnahee.

From the ang 273 of Guru ji

'Brahm giani ka bhojan gian.'

Knowledge is the food of the God-conscious being

This is again a clear example of how Guru ji instructs us to gain knowledge in order to come closer to Waheguru, we are to gain GIAN.

In saying shabad teaches us we know nothing, you have totally dismissed all of the quotes from Maharaj ji I used, which are clear that one has to ACT in a moral way in order to achieve mukti aswell as this, there is so much emphasis on Waheguru being within everybody, and there is also reference in bani to those who find Waheguru within themselves are true. The steps to becoming a moral Gurmukh is to obtain gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj at all possible time, naam japna, tireless and continous seva and vandh shakna.

You are saying that all we can do is ardas, and that there is no need to understand any meaning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and all we can do is naam japna, this is not correct you cannot neglect either shabad gian or naam japna in doing so you are not living according to gurmat, you cannot do ardas if it is not true to you, therefore it is by reading bani and understanding the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj that one can understand in which way they become a Gurmukh, you are speaking about ardas as it as well as this you need to keep in mind that Guru ji denounced divine incarnation when thinking about ardas, which can only be answered if we are focused on the one Waheguru.

We can forever more post each other quotes to say one thing or another, however Veer ji I think you need to use the quotes that you have posted and look at them in context of Gurbani and other shabads not as isolated quotes, then it is quite evident that emphasis IS placed upon gaining Gian, and not just doing nothing or knowing nothing as you put it. If we were to not learn anything from Shabad or if shabad taught us we know nothing then within Bani why would there be reference to controling ones minds. I agree we without Bani we know nothing, but Shabads teach us to gain Gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj so we do know, they do not say we cannot gain gian from Maharaj ji, that wouldn't make any sense. I again will have to say (as some posters may jump on a bandwagon and claim I am anti-naam japna) that Naam Japna should also be a key part of a GurSikhs life in order to remember and maintain focus upon Waheguru, for who you are living and carrying out Gurmat.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Guest confusingh]

Veer confusing jee, i read your comments about sants, but I dont understand how you would translate all the shabads in gurbani which mention Sants (plural). Sant is the singular is in referance to guru jee but who are all these sants in the plurar?

We all recite Barahmaaha and guru jee says, 'Chet Gobind Aradheeai, hovai anand ghana. Sant Jana mihal payai, rasana naam bhana'. Ang 133. Who are those sant jana? Even if you use Prof Sahib Singh jees translation and not the English ones, he says that the gift of reciting parmatmas naam is obtained by meeting the sants.

Then look in the vaisakh shabad, Vaisakh suhava taa lagai, jaa sant bhetai har sohee. Here its not referring to sants but in the singular. But how can you ignore all the shabads like the one in Chet?

As for science, Its not my subject and I dont have much knowledge of it. However If you want to prove things through through science, how would you prove dhurkee bani? how can Akal Purakh speak through the guru? jasaee mai avai khasam kee bani. If science wont agree with a head coming of a gurmukh and he is still able to continue to fight, what will science say about our belief that the shabad being a revelation? Some things are beyond our understanding and then we try to make the guru and sants like our own low level of spirituality. Science is a good thing to study, however its there to intepret gurbani or sakhia. If we are going to use science to understand gurbani then we have 100s of shabads like ganga kee lehar meri tutee janjeer...

I feel you are taking one aspect of Sikhi (shabad dee khoj) and trying say weigh it with other aspects (such as naam japna) when in fact they are all necessary for a Sikh. You are also guilty of the say crime as alot of other people who say all missionarys are nindaks by writing against all sants.

I have not in any of my posts said there is no need for Naam Japna, in fact in my last post I said it should go alongside Shabade Dee Khoj in order to keep a Sikh focused upon what they are attempting to obtain which is Mukti, to reach Waheguru. I have also not used a scientific approach at all, scientifically speaking I wouldn't have faith in God at all if I was to go according to science, it just the words and vocabulary I have chose to use which has led some sangat to believe I am taking a scientific approach to Sikhi; although several people do claim that Sikhi and science can go together and that Sikhi is very logical, I believe Sikhi is logical and makes alot of sense, but I'm not an atheist therefore I cannot take a scientific approach to my dharam.

The term and set up of Sants as we know it now, of equal beings promoted as Sants is one which has a Bhakti influence within it, this is prominent within the Bhakti movement, I cannot be conclusive in regards to meaning, however Sant as a singular, as you said is in reference Guru ji, the plural of Sant could be in relation to true Gurmukhs, I am not ruling that out by any means, all I am saying is the common translation in English of Sant which we use is a wise, considerate, judicious and knowledgeable person, however nowadays this is rather being used as a title and ahankar is being obtained also by these people, as they use it as a pedestal, rather than remaining spiritually detached, well knowledge and tirelessly doing seva, parchaar is not a method of sharing their gian, it is a method of using people as a means of personal gain, perhaps a large dera, several greatly significant 'donations' and these are not the acts of 'sant' as described in Gurbani, i'm sure you'll agree with me.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee i made the comment about naam japna because i wonder the impression from your previous post you was not happy with some people doing this in the gurughar you go.

Veer jee, if you visit the pinds in Punjab you will find that majority of the people who are Sikh, visit the large deras you refer to. The rest of the people padhar. Of course there are pakhandi, if there was during guru jees time there will be now aswell. However all we do is concentrate on the pakhandi. If they have maya is that a bad thing and does that make them pandhandi? If you visit Jwadi Taksal in Ludhiana you will see what Sant Sucha Singh jee has done to preserve gurmat sangeet. You cant carry out these projects without money. But soon as a sant has money he is a pakhandi. If the sant sits in a puragh to do bhagati then people start complaining that he is doing what Hindu Sadhus do... So people just contine to find things to complain about. How many Khatavacikhs go to Pinds like the Sants? however no one attacks them.

Regarding the Baraahmaah shabad and sants, i used the following translation: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0133.html

Here is the English one:

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=133

Veer ji,

In regards to Naam japna, even Bani tells us we cannot solely rely on this as a journey in mukti and we do not learn how to implement morals and values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj in our everyday lives by Naam Japna, but by Shabads, Kirtan and reading and understanding the message of Mahara ji, we are not supposed to neglect either Gian or Naam Japna, that is what my point is.

I am also not saying that seva of the panth should not be applauded and praised, but I do not feel there should be segregation, if one does alot of sewa and kirtan parchar, does that make them a Sant... we should not use Sant as a title such as Sir or Lord in Western terms, but rather as a person who is detached and impartial, this is not the case with many modern day Sants.

I did no say anything in regards to funding of projects, I said personal gain, this is seen with many of the 'sants' they have beautiful choley whilst realistically Singhs in Panjab do not have these, a true Sant would not allow others to call them Sant they would remain humble within their mind; even Gurbani tells us this. IF we cannot put vishwaas in Guru Maharaj we should not then put it in humans, we should look to gain guidance and knowledge from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, if we are not to do so then we do become manmukhs as we are not independent, impartial and detached.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Matheen]

Veer Confusingh, going back on topic, Bhai Jasvir Singh and other presenters on Punjab Radio HAVE said there is no need for simran, ALL Sants are fake, all Dasam Bani is fake and other ridiculous statements calling everything they don't understand 'bhamanvaad'.

That is the issue with them, I'm sure everyone here will agree that we need to do vichaar of Gurbani etc. That was never the issue - it just seems that are a mouthpiece for the heretic Singhsabha Canada movement.

As for Mahapursh, my experience with the real ones is that they do all they can to join us with Gurbani, not themselves.

[ghorandhar]

In clarification, The Gurmukh (one who follows the ways of Guru Ji, one who controls their animal desires and lives according to Gurbani) knows the unstruck (strong flow of) bani, how rare (jani birlo) are those who (ko) understand (arthavai), again this urges Sikhs to gain gian from bani and attain an understanding of Gurbani also. I hope this helps you understand my point.

Confu singh ji

Inner desires or panch doot are not controlled just by saying or reading scriptures. These weaknesses are controlled or tamed only by bhagti. That is why our Gurus have stressed that essence of God relaization is naam simran.So those missionaries like ghagha etc who say naam jaap is a gorakh dhandha know nothing about sikh philosophy. That is the point i was making all along.

'Anhad bani gurmukh jani birlo ko arthavai.'

ARTHAVAI = understand, know and comprehend the meaning of, to intelligently (with a capacity of thought and reason) perceive, is conscious of.

Veer ji, this directly shows us that Guru ji did ask us to gain knowledge of Gurbani, Gian is highly important in our dharam because we should aim to base all our moral actions within the guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, and if we have no knowledge of the message of Guru Maharaj Ji, then how are we able to know how to implemenet moral values in to our everyday life. In order to stay away from the panj vikar we need to understand the messages Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj gives us and use this in our lives with sat, santokh, daya, nimrata and pyaar.

So we should always strive to gain Gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj's message to help us live a moral life and not look to ritualism and such, as this will not gain us mukti, read Guru Ji's ang 471, in reference to Brahmin rituals such as wearing threads the message is that there is no strength within rituals. Sikhi puts values upon good deeds and a person's morals principles and values rather than simply repeating prayers which does not make us moral... In reference to the muslim's 5 prayers in Guru ji's ang 141 it says...

'Karni kalma aakh kai ta musalman sadae.'

Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.

'Nanak jete kuriar kurhai kuri pae. ||3|| '

O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. ||3||

Further within this ang, it is written

'Tao Nanak sarab jia mihramat hoei ta musalman kahavai. ||1|| '

And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||

These quotes are quite self explanatory; they show us Guru ji guided us towards carrying out actions, and not just rely on us saying prayers meaninglessly, we can only carry out moral actions if we understand what these are, we understand what these are by reading Bani and understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and the meaning of Guru Ji's words. If we don't understand what Bani is saying to us then we wouldn't understand the need to be merciful as Guru ji tells us and we are only gaining falsehood.

My point is, Gian is essential within Sikhi as well as Simran, which helps us constantly maintain focus upon and remember who we are living for this is Waheguru, the one who graces every being on the earth. Control of the animal mind and spiritual consciousness is achieved through understanding, hence the term 'arthavai' being used in bani, if we have no understanding of Guru Ji's words then we are unable to effectively follow the message Guru Ji is giving us.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

You talking about the last avaasta (brahmgian) when most of us are on the first avaasta.

Gian Dhain Kich Karam na jana, sar na janaa tere, sabh tee vaada satgur nanak, jin kal rakhi mere.

Gian Dhain Kich karam na jana, nahin nirmal karnee.

Sadh Sangat ki anchal lavoo, bikham nadee jaih tarnee.

Daavaa karna of having gian is not something guru jee taught us.

gurbani tells us to contemplate on the shabad (shabad guru, surat dhun chela) but guru jee noo ardas kar that guru jee will save us because if we contemplate on the shabad, guru jee is saying, maan karoo tudh oppar merai preetam piyari, ham aparadi sad bhool ti tum bakshan hari (raag Bilawal).

With guru jees bakshsish can we be saved from the panj vikar. Contemplation of shabad actually teaches us that I know nothing and the only thing we can do is naam japna and ardas to guru jee that we will be saved. Our own samarat, maat, soujee, soch etc will do nothing even if you wish to call it gian. If our own soch would save us from vikara then the bhaats would not have to write:

Ikh Ardas bhat keerat kee gur ramdas rakho sarnahee.

From the ang 273 of Guru ji

'Brahm giani ka bhojan gian.'

Knowledge is the food of the God-conscious being

This is again a clear example of how Guru ji instructs us to gain knowledge in order to come closer to Waheguru, we are to gain GIAN.

In saying shabad teaches us we know nothing, you have totally dismissed all of the quotes from Maharaj ji I used, which are clear that one has to ACT in a moral way in order to achieve mukti aswell as this, there is so much emphasis on Waheguru being within everybody, and there is also reference in bani to those who find Waheguru within themselves are true. The steps to becoming a moral Gurmukh is to obtain gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj at all possible time, naam japna, tireless and continous seva and vandh shakna.

You are saying that all we can do is ardas, and that there is no need to understand any meaning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and all we can do is naam japna, this is not correct you cannot neglect either shabad gian or naam japna in doing so you are not living according to gurmat, you cannot do ardas if it is not true to you, therefore it is by reading bani and understanding the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj that one can understand in which way they become a Gurmukh, you are speaking about ardas as it as well as this you need to keep in mind that Guru ji denounced divine incarnation when thinking about ardas, which can only be answered if we are focused on the one Waheguru.

We can forever more post each other quotes to say one thing or another, however Veer ji I think you need to use the quotes that you have posted and look at them in context of Gurbani and other shabads not as isolated quotes, then it is quite evident that emphasis IS placed upon gaining Gian, and not just doing nothing or knowing nothing as you put it. If we were to not learn anything from Shabad or if shabad taught us we know nothing then within Bani why would there be reference to controling ones minds. I agree we without Bani we know nothing, but Shabads teach us to gain Gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj so we do know, they do not say we cannot gain gian from Maharaj ji, that wouldn't make any sense. I again will have to say (as some posters may jump on a bandwagon and claim I am anti-naam japna) that Naam Japna should also be a key part of a GurSikhs life in order to remember and maintain focus upon Waheguru, for who you are living and carrying out Gurmat.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee when I said ardas and naam japna in order to save us, I was referrring to your comments regarding gian and it saving us from viakara. Gian itself can give you an understanding, that does not mean you will act morally. Muaaf karna but even without gian a person can reach parmatma. If you look at the Shabad: Deeva Phana tareeali, ram khehat jan kas na tari (Raag Gauri Cheti). Can you tell me which gian Ugarsain, ganka, kubijaa, ajaamaal etc which gian did they have? Then why did guru jee say Ram khet jan kas naa tari? The answer is in first and last line of the shabad. Im not discounting gian, all Im saying is that by reading gurbani the gian we get is 'maih nahee prabh sabh kich tera'. From your previous post you were inferrring that gian itself will save us from vikara, ... you said the following:

'order to stay away from the panj vikar we need to understand the messages Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj gives us and use this in our lives with sat, santokh, daya, nimrata and pyaar'.

I was therefore referring to the above. If you referrred to naam, seva etc I would not have said anything, but you were trying to prove gian itself with make us act morally correct, now you are adding other things to the list which I do not disagree with. Where did I say that there is no need for understanding Guru granth Sahib jee? I said that by understanding Gurbani our hands go up because gian dhian kich karam naa jana... but you are now starting to talk about bramhgianis.

You refer to bhram giani, but when i read the whole sukmani sahib my hands go up, 'Brahm giani sad jeevai nahi marta' (sukhmani sahib)... if you have reached that level of avasta congratulations. However you cannot translate the shabads on sants and now you are talking about brahmgianis.

I never said you dont need gian, all im doing is disagreeing with is the way you use gian. If gian was to make us act morally then there was not many people with more gian than Prithi Chand, Ram Rai etc. This is why Guru Agai ardas vee karee daa.

[ghorandhar]

Veer confusing jee, i read your comments about sants, but I dont understand how you would translate all the shabads in gurbani which mention Sants (plural). Sant is the singular is in referance to guru jee but who are all these sants in the plurar?

We all recite Barahmaaha and guru jee says, 'Chet Gobind Aradheeai, hovai anand ghana. Sant Jana mihal payai, rasana naam bhana'. Ang 133. Who are those sant jana? Even if you use Prof Sahib Singh jees translation and not the English ones, he says that the gift of reciting parmatmas naam is obtained by meeting the sants.

Then look in the vaisakh shabad, Vaisakh suhava taa lagai, jaa sant bhetai har sohee. Here its not referring to sants but in the singular. But how can you ignore all the shabads like the one in Chet?

As for science, Its not my subject and I dont have much knowledge of it. However If you want to prove things through through science, how would you prove dhurkee bani? how can Akal Purakh speak through the guru? jasaee mai avai khasam kee bani. If science wont agree with a head coming of a gurmukh and he is still able to continue to fight, what will science say about our belief that the shabad being a revelation? Some things are beyond our understanding and then we try to make the guru and sants like our own low level of spirituality. Science is a good thing to study, however its there to intepret gurbani or sakhia. If we are going to use science to understand gurbani then we have 100s of shabads like ganga kee lehar meri tutee janjeer...

I feel you are taking one aspect of Sikhi (shabad dee khoj) and trying say weigh it with other aspects (such as naam japna) when in fact they are all necessary for a Sikh. You are also guilty of the say crime as alot of other people who say all missionarys are nindaks by writing against all sants.

I have not in any of my posts said there is no need for Naam Japna, in fact in my last post I said it should go alongside Shabade Dee Khoj in order to keep a Sikh focused upon what they are attempting to obtain which is Mukti, to reach Waheguru. I have also not used a scientific approach at all, scientifically speaking I wouldn't have faith in God at all if I was to go according to science, it just the words and vocabulary I have chose to use which has led some sangat to believe I am taking a scientific approach to Sikhi; although several people do claim that Sikhi and science can go together and that Sikhi is very logical, I believe Sikhi is logical and makes alot of sense, but I'm not an atheist therefore I cannot take a scientific approach to my dharam.

The term and set up of Sants as we know it now, of equal beings promoted as Sants is one which has a Bhakti influence within it, this is prominent within the Bhakti movement, I cannot be conclusive in regards to meaning, however Sant as a singular, as you said is in reference Guru ji, the plural of Sant could be in relation to true Gurmukhs, I am not ruling that out by any means, all I am saying is the common translation in English of Sant which we use is a wise, considerate, judicious and knowledgeable person, however nowadays this is rather being used as a title and ahankar is being obtained also by these people, as they use it as a pedestal, rather than remaining spiritually detached, well knowledge and tirelessly doing seva, parchaar is not a method of sharing their gian, it is a method of using people as a means of personal gain, perhaps a large dera, several greatly significant 'donations' and these are not the acts of 'sant' as described in Gurbani, i'm sure you'll agree with me.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee i made the comment about naam japna because i wonder the impression from your previous post you was not happy with some people doing this in the gurughar you go.

Veer jee, if you visit the pinds in Punjab you will find that majority of the people who are Sikh, visit the large deras you refer to. The rest of the people padhar. Of course there are pakhandi, if there was during guru jees time there will be now aswell. However all we do is concentrate on the pakhandi. If they have maya is that a bad thing and does that make them pandhandi? If you visit Jwadi Taksal in Ludhiana you will see what Sant Sucha Singh jee has done to preserve gurmat sangeet. You cant carry out these projects without money. But soon as a sant has money he is a pakhandi. If the sant sits in a puragh to do bhagati then people start complaining that he is doing what Hindu Sadhus do... So people just contine to find things to complain about. How many Khatavacikhs go to Pinds like the Sants? however no one attacks them.

Regarding the Baraahmaah shabad and sants, i used the following translation: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0133.html

Here is the English one:

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=133

Veer ji,

In regards to Naam japna, even Bani tells us we cannot solely rely on this as a journey in mukti and we do not learn how to implement morals and values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj in our everyday lives by Naam Japna, but by Shabads, Kirtan and reading and understanding the message of Mahara ji, we are not supposed to neglect either Gian or Naam Japna, that is what my point is.

I am also not saying that seva of the panth should not be applauded and praised, but I do not feel there should be segregation, if one does alot of sewa and kirtan parchar, does that make them a Sant... we should not use Sant as a title such as Sir or Lord in Western terms, but rather as a person who is detached and impartial, this is not the case with many modern day Sants.

I did no say anything in regards to funding of projects, I said personal gain, this is seen with many of the 'sants' they have beautiful choley whilst realistically Singhs in Panjab do not have these, a true Sant would not allow others to call them Sant they would remain humble within their mind; even Gurbani tells us this. IF we cannot put vishwaas in Guru Maharaj we should not then put it in humans, we should look to gain guidance and knowledge from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, if we are not to do so then we do become manmukhs as we are not independent, impartial and detached.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee I disagree with you the way you are looking at gurbani and gian. I understand you are saying gian is important and I agree. But what im trying to refer to is where is what is that when we read the shabad what gian have we taken away? I believe in Guru dee kirpa, Apnaa mat chadnaa, this what I understand.

I used to think that we could not put this title on put there are hundreds of shabads talking about Sant jaana mil har jas gaiooo. If some person is called sant, I dont have a problem with it, I cant see how it affects your life and why it causes you such stress. If someone calls a person Sant, baba, giani, Bhai etc they have satkar for that person. If a sant has personal gain why is that wrong? should he starve and where ripped clothes. I cant see where you are going with this topic.

I dont know which sant you have met who tells you to call them a sant.