Raags Is A Hukam From Guru Ji

[Aparadhee]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4MZz1BB5A&...feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VtrKpb0WUjk

end of first video and start of second touches on the issue being discussed

khaalis has a point, raag vidiya is important and something special, but there is plenty of bani in guru sahib which is without raag aswell. what do we do in the case of this bani?

in the end just listen to what gives you anand. it is wrong to say kirtan outside of raag is manmat, as then how do we explain this to those who have experienced maha anand from such "manmat" kirtan. those who say raag is useless, have probably not experienced the anand from raag either. in the end perhaps a combination of both in ones jeevan is a just compromise.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=s5iKevff5aM

if we say the above kirtan is not parvaan in guru nanak dev jis house then we have not realised how to do kirtan from the heart. but i doubt anyone of us holds that view.

fateh

[Mr T]

vahiguroo u bhai sahib are a better Gursikh then me

but i havent said that sikhs shouldnt keep sarabloh bibek or do santhiya in larreevaar...in fact in slough the naujawan who have had santhiya are writting gurbaanee in lareevaar themselves...u should come see instead of attacking people on forums cos u dont like their views

and im pretty sure those youth having santhiya from baldeep singh are doing the same in midlands and a few of them are writing lareevaar

so our Guroo Sahibs didnt know what they were doing did they when they made taanti saaj??

and i fully support what Khalis said....raag isnt more important then the sabad but it is important... but i guess we all know more then our Guroos hunna....

waheguroo please tell me where ive attack peoples views i listen to kirtan done by tanti saaj, if you read my post i go "its funny how we pick and choose rehats" i was pointing out that hukam is to jap naam. Problem i see anougst youngster they put anything down they dont follow or understand down this isnt going to help your jeevan, you can have your view as along as it is in line with gurmat.

[simonsandhar]

VJKK VJKF

a wicked chardi kala taksali gursikh told me that Gurbani is like barfi, it doesnt matter from which direction you take a bite, it will always be sweet.

[Degh-Tegh-Fathe]

vahiguroo u bhai sahib are a better Gursikh then me

but i havent said that sikhs shouldnt keep sarabloh bibek or do santhiya in larreevaar...in fact in slough the naujawan who have had santhiya are writting gurbaanee in lareevaar themselves...u should come see instead of attacking people on forums cos u dont like their views

and im pretty sure those youth having santhiya from baldeep singh are doing the same in midlands and a few of them are writing lareevaar

so our Guroo Sahibs didnt know what they were doing did they when they made taanti saaj??

and i fully support what Khalis said....raag isnt more important then the sabad but it is important... but i guess we all know more then our Guroos hunna....

Bhenji, Guru Sahib did create SOME tanti saaj, but what about rabab...That was a afghan instrument, and sarod, and sitar, and sarangi was from nepal, and theres so many more...Just like the waja, and plus u sing in pyaar your gonna get the same affect hunna?

[Jagmeet]

I feel personally that the instruments our Guru's learnt, taught and even made should be 2nd nature to every Sikh in the world, but that doesn't mean its 'manmat' or wrong to do Kirtan on a harmonium. It just this instrument seems to have spread more across our community then the traditional string instruments.

I have and do get the following statements from people who don't listen or practice 'shud' Raag Vidya because:

'It's boring'

'Its hard listening and taking part'

'Its always slow'

'I fall asleep listening to it'

For people who practice it and don't use harmonium say the following:

'This is a European instrument, our Guru's did not use this instrument there fore Kirtan should not be sung on it'

'The harmonium instrument had a bad reputation for being used in places where prostitutes danced and now it's used in places like Sri Harmandir Sahib'

'Harmonium has only 7 sur and is limited, it doesnt posses the complexity that needs to be achieved in some raags.'

Sorry if this seems offensive, but it shows that a lot of the Sikh community aren't educated in Puratan Raag Vidya and istread follow the trend of playing only on the harmonium.

[Khaalis]

Most people find the genius of Mozart boring and instead prefer tu-pac. That is just the unsophisticated and inarticulate world we live in today.

"Bhenji, Guru Sahib did create SOME tanti saaj, but what about rabab...That was a afghan instrument, and sarod, and sitar, and sarangi was from nepal, and theres so many more...Just like the waja, and plus u sing in pyaar your gonna get the same affect hunna?"

Guru Nanak Dev Ji invented the ‘Sikh’ rabab. He had Bhai Mardanas rabab specially redesigned at Sultanpur Lodhi for the purpose of Shabd Kirtan– look into it. Thats aside, rabab is not an aghan instrument – one version of it exists in Afghanistan, there are many versions across many countires. I am not sure where you are getting your Nepalese info from, but it is wrong. Pick up any book on Indian instrument history. Sarod is a recent invention. Sarangi has been used in Rajastan for centuries and Sitar was said to be invented by 10^th Master alongside and Taus and Dilruba (latter under his supervision).

Saranda – 5^th Master, Sarangi – introduced to Sikh darbar by 6^th Master for performance of dhadhi vaaran.

Vaja was an Austrian instrument used by vagabonds (still is) in Europe during the time it was introduced in India. It sounds prehistoric compared to Guru’s saaj and is unable to ‘sing’ like Guru’s saaj due to it’s microtonal and meend deficiency.

But like I said, Saaj are Guru’s tradition and Raag is Guru’s hukum (black and white in Gurbani). It’s hukum that is imperative, keeping Guru’s saaj alive is simply a matter of a Gursikhs pyaar and sharda towards his Sat-Gur. Those shabd that don’t have raag – well it’s common sense, they weren’t made to be sung to – but performed an important and unique function i.e. Jap Ji Sahib – the esoteric nucleaus and divine invocation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib – to be recited in a sombre fashion.

Again we see the childish comparison of pyaar/anand Vs raag. Why can’t they be one and the same?

Re the other apparent common comments re raag – well this is all changing as youth become educated. Thousands of Sikh youth are moving towards hukumi kirtan daily – the affects can be seen in every county today.

Veer/Bhen Ji, may be you should actually study history before making such ignorant statements.

[Jagmeet]

Again we see the childish comparison of pyaar/anand Vs raag. Why can’t they be one and the same?

Re the other apparent common comments re raag – well this is all changing as youth become educated. Thousands of Sikh youth are moving towards hukumi kirtan daily – the affects can be seen in every county today.

Veer/Bhen Ji, may be you should actually study history before making such ignorant statements.

Just to clarify, who are you replying to, could you add quotes from the individuals post, so we know in what context you are talking in.

Thanks.

[Sikh Answers]

Raag Kirtan in accordance to Gurmat Sangeet is excellent, but the tradition of simple tunes has been in the Panth since the beginning; hence the tradition of Chaunkees and JoTeean shabads. Similarly, Parbhaat Feree style Kirtan was initiated during the times of the Great Guru Sahibaans.

At Sri Darbaar Sahib, at certain times in the day, the Sangat go in the parkarma and sing Shabads together in simple tunes or JoTees. This is a puraatan (ancient) maryada and at certain times of the day it happens. This takes place at other historical Gurdwaras too. Is this wrong too?

At Nagar Kirtans, does Sangat sing together in 'Pukka Raags' (pure musical measures as prescribed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) or simple tunes? Are Nagar Kirtans a puraatan (ancient) phenomenon from the period of the 10 Gurus? Yes. Was this wrong too?

Finally, Guru Ji clearly states (using Professor Sahib Singh's translation as an aid):

ਸਭਨਾ ਰਾਗਾਂ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੋ ਭਲਾ ਭਾਈ ਜਿਤੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥

ਰਾਗੁ ਨਾਦੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਰਾਗੈ ਨਾਦੈ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਇਨੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੂਝਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਤਿਨਾ ਰਾਸਿ ਹੋਇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਹੋਇਆ ਜਿਉ ਤਿਸੈ ਦੀ ਰਜਾਇ ॥੨੪॥

"O Brother! Among all Raags (musical measures) that one is sublime, by which the Lord comes to abide in the mind (through Simran). The Raag (of Vahiguru's Simran) in which the Guru's Word is sung, are all true (for humans), and their worth cannot be told. (Union with) Vahiguru is beyond (the restriction of) Raags (musical measures) and Naads (vibrations). Merely through these, Vahiguru's Will cannot be realised. O Nanak! They alone are right, who realise their Lord's Will. It is they who are blessed with understanding by the True Guru. Everything comes to pass through Vahiguru, as per His will."

(SGGS – 1423)

The story of Bhai Satta & Balwand Ji reminds us not to get caught up into musical measures and entangled in ego. Guru Ji says:

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਗੀ ਨਾਦੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਭੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥

"Some sing of the Lord, through musical Ragas and the sound current of the Naad, through the Vedas, and in so many ways. But the Lord, Har, Har, is not pleased by these, O Lord King."

(SGGS – 450)

Many spiritually high Gursikhs enjoy listening to the Kirtan done by children. Simply because they don't have "kapat" (corruption) or "vikaars" (wickedness) or at least they aren't affected as much. Even Gurbani compares Akaal Purakh with hirdhaa (heart) of children because Akaal Purakh is also pure from vikaars.

Education and awareness of Raag should be supported by all the whole Panth, parallel with promoting Gurbani Santheya and knowledge of Sikh history. But whether Kirtan is done in Raag or non-Raag, the most important thing should be that the Sikhs does "Kirati" or praise of Akaal Purakh.

[Khaalis]

Education and awareness of Raag should be supported by all the whole Panth, parallel with promoting Gurbani Santheya and knowledge of Sikh history. But whether Kirtan is done in Raag or non-Raag, the most important thing should be that the Sikhs does "Kirati" or praise of Akaal Purakh.

“but the tradition of simple tunes has been in the Panth since the beginning; hence the tradition of Chaunkees and JoTeean shabads. Similarly, Parbhaat Feree style Kirtan was initiated during the times of the Great Guru Sahibaans.”

Please provide an historic reference for the above claim. Nagar Kirtans are not a puratan sikh tradition.

Again you fall tap to the same childish agreement – Raag Vs Nimrata. Your quote of teh raag is out of context – Maharaj is talking about haumai of those that practice raag and raag not being a means to an end in itself. He is not saying it shouldn’t be used. I can quote equivalent Gurbani of Dasam Pita talking about those who feign meditation, does that mean that meditation is useless?

Re your selective 2^nd tuk, how do you reconcile this to Ad Guru Granth Sahib being structured around raag format? Obviously something lacking in your understanding of that tuk (maybe you should have posted the full shabd so the context could be seen).

Many people see ‘nimrata’ in following Maharajs kirtan maryada, rather than singing to bollywood and popular folk/bhangra tunes.

For the record, i don’t judge Mahapurkh who used simple reetan, they did what they did for a reason and we are not able to question their choices today, so it is futile even bringing them into the debate. What we should concentrate on is why Guru Sahiban structured the whole Guru Granth Sahib around a meaningful raag framework and why 10^th Master composed his bani in over 700 raags (genius musicologist) in his granths. Why were these raags put in sirlek – in a position before the bani – does this not signify something important? Also, why is that the raagi/rababi tradition existed in Guru Sahibs Dargah (full tanti saaj and raag maryada) until everything changed when SGPC/Singh Sabha took control?

The great kirtan maryada tradition ended in affect with the death of the 127 year old great Sevapanthi Mahapurkh Baba Shaam Singh Ji – after his death the reformists took control.

I don’t say that people with pure heart get no benefit from non-hukmi kirtan, as we know, it’s innocence and love that matters above all. But those diamonds are far and few between. For the rest of us, Guru has given maryada and hukum to keep our egos and subservience in check. It’s easier to follow Gurus instructions than jathaa trends.

[Degh-Tegh-Fathe]

Education and awareness of Raag should be supported by all the whole Panth, parallel with promoting Gurbani Santheya and knowledge of Sikh history. But whether Kirtan is done in Raag or non-Raag, the most important thing should be that the Sikhs does "Kirati" or praise of Akaal Purakh.

"but the tradition of simple tunes has been in the Panth since the beginning; hence the tradition of Chaunkees and JoTeean shabads. Similarly, Parbhaat Feree style Kirtan was initiated during the times of the Great Guru Sahibaans."

Please provide an historic reference for the above claim. Nagar Kirtans are not a puratan sikh tradition.

Again you fall tap to the same childish agreement – Raag Vs Nimrata. Your quote of teh raag is out of context – Maharaj is talking about haumai of those that practice raag and raag not being a means to an end in itself. He is not saying it shouldn't be used. I can quote equivalent Gurbani of Dasam Pita talking about those who feign meditation, does that mean that meditation is useless?

Re your selective 2^nd tuk, how do you reconcile this to Ad Guru Granth Sahib being structured around raag format? Obviously something lacking in your understanding of that tuk (maybe you should have posted the full shabd so the context could be seen).

Many people see 'nimrata' in following Maharajs kirtan maryada, rather than singing to bollywood and popular folk/bhangra tunes.

For the record, i don't judge Mahapurkh who used simple reetan, they did what they did for a reason and we are not able to question their choices today, so it is futile even bringing them into the debate. What we should concentrate on is why Guru Sahiban structured the whole Guru Granth Sahib around a meaningful raag framework and why 10^th Master composed his bani in over 700 raags (genius musicologist) in his granths. Why were these raags put in sirlek – in a position before the bani – does this not signify something important? Also, why is that the raagi/rababi tradition existed in Guru Sahibs Dargah (full tanti saaj and raag maryada) until everything changed when SGPC/Singh Sabha took control?

The great kirtan maryada tradition ended in affect with the death of the 127 year old great Sevapanthi Mahapurkh Baba Shaam Singh Ji – after his death the reformists took control.

I don't say that people with pure heart get no benefit from non-hukmi kirtan, as we know, it's innocence and love that matters above all. But those diamonds are far and few between. For the rest of us, Guru has given maryada and hukum to keep our egos and subservience in check. It's easier to follow Gurus instructions than jathaa trends.

YOUR BLOCKING OUT WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING AND JUST RAMBALING ON