ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ

[Bijla Singh]

Pal07, could you show me where I have written that I am more knowledgeable than Sant Ji? I highly respect him. I only stated that Gurbani interpretation is not limited to Taksal. Taksal does not support viyakaran which is very different than implying that they are wrong. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, Bhai Randhir Singh and Prof. Sahib Singh were great scholars also and their interpretations are not always in line with Taksal. This is a free message board and I will post whatever I want. It is unfortunate that today’s youth are so brainwashed by jatha mentality that they cannot see beyond their own “Sant”. If you want to prove my post wrong then do it based on Gurbani. You only weaken your case by saying I am wrong because Taksal says something else. Sant Ji and Giani Thakur Singh interpret word “Kahho” differently and Giani Ji is wrong because he does not know viyakaran. Taksal makes mistakes in interpretation and that is only because they do not study viyakaran. You need to answer my question first: Is Gurbani interpretation limited only to sampardas which have no historical record in puratan sources? Do they not make mistakes? If no then it clearly means that Gurbani can be understood 100% by human beings and therefore is limited. Interpretation I have provided is supported by Bhai Randhir Singh. Ask Taksalis if they consider him a "manmat" person.

Sunny, Shabad you quoted do not contradict. Metaphor and context of each Shabad varies but Gurbani’s underlying message will never contradict.

Gurbani is WAY ABOVE viakaran. But the viakaran meanings are never contradicted.

I think you fail to understand what viyakaran really is because I used to think the same way before I started to study it. Viyakaran is simply grammar rules which has verbs, nouns, pronouns, singular and plural words etc. No matter how high avastha meanings one comes up with, viyakaran will apply. What you mean to say is that Gurbani has no limits when it comes to spirituality and higher meanings but it doesn’t mean Gurbani is written without any grammar. Every language has grammar and a language without grammar does not exist. How ridiculous would it sound to use present verbs with past tense or masculine words with feminine etc. Viyakaran explains how a language is written; it doesn’t bind its interpretation to just one. I suggest you to study grammar first and you will see how it would help you to understand Gurbani better. Pick any pankti from Gurbani and I will show you viyakaran in it. Sihari, bihari, aunkars, horas, tippis etc are all part of viyakaran. Guru Sahib used them for a purpose.

Lastly, I do not claim to be a scholar or more knowledgeable than any scholar. I learn from them but I do not tend to follow just one person. We are lucky to have many different sources available to understand Gurmat. We have the right to agree or disagree with them which is not disrespect in any way. I post to do vichaar based on Gurbani not based on “taksal says this so this is correct”. I always keep two rules in mind when studying Gurbani: 1) It never contradicts 2) Interpretation always supports Gurmat principles. In the case of the Shabad being discussed, one can validate Taksal’s meanings using viyakaran but not without a great stretch but even then the meanings would contradict rest of Gurbani.

[sunny_love_kirtan]

ok

i apologize for using the word contradiction. u knw what i mean.

[Bijla Singh]

pal07, I don't think you have learned anything moral from sampardas of yours. Sending insulting pms is not an act of a person who pretends to know something about Gurbani. I can provide numerous examples from Gurbani rejecting Vedas and Katebas. I will say it openly. You are wrong about the interpretation and so is Taksal. Bhai Randhir Singh is correct. Deal with it.

[Trigger Happy]

I humbly disagree with their interpretation of the first pankti. Bhai Randhir Singh's interpretation is much better though not 100% correct. When I meet Giani Ji and other katha vaachaks I would surely ask them questions for veechar.

pal07, I don't think you have learned anything moral from sampardas of yours. Sending insulting pms is not an act of a person who pretends to know something about Gurbani. I can provide numerous examples from Gurbani rejecting Vedas and Katebas. I will say it openly. You are wrong about the interpretation and so is Taksal. Bhai Randhir Singh is correct. Deal with it.

Think theres definitely something wrong here however!...

Seems like all these internet Gianis also suffer from 5 vikkars too - only real Sant Gianis are exmept from this.

[Bijla Singh]

Seems like all these internet Gianis also suffer from 5 vikkars too - only real Sant Gianis are exmept from this.

Real ones are hard to find and I hardly doubt you will find one on the internet. This is a discussion forum where people can do veechar and share their thoughts in case you haven't noticed.

[Matheen]

Gurbani is beyond any limits hence being limitless...

Viyakaran can and should be used to interpret Gurbani but as soon as one says Gurbani can only be interpreted using viyakaran then one has limited Gurbani to that measure...

100% true. Especially seeing as the viyakaaran used today only made its appearance recently.

Gurbani is a Saroop of Akaal Purkh and it's true form can only be known through 'anubhav' as stated in the first pauri of Jaap Sahib and implied throughout Guru Sahib and Bhai Gurdas' Vaaran.

However, any study of Gurbani is good.

[Trigger Happy]

Seems like all these internet Gianis also suffer from 5 vikkars too - only real Sant Gianis are exmept from this.

Real ones are hard to find and I hardly doubt you will find one on the internet. This is a discussion forum where people can do veechar and share their thoughts in case you haven't noticed.

O touchy touchy... But there still remains something wrong in the highlighted statements, hahahah... :lol: You can't brush that one to the side so easily bhai sahib ji. The truth will always come out in the end and you've shown that here in this post jio.

Yep thats why the first part applies to internet gianis and the second part to REAL, maybe daas should of been more clear here to emphasise this point. The REAL ones are indeed very unlikely to be surfing the jam packed internet when they can be out surfing different realms without rush hour traffic.

Forgive daas for this mistake. So sorry internet savvy Giani Ji :WW: please do Ardaas for the betterment of daas's jeevan, internet knowledge and forum understanding, lmao...

Gurbani is beyond any limits hence being limitless...

Viyakaran can and should be used to interpret Gurbani but as soon as one says Gurbani can only be interpreted using viyakaran then one has limited Gurbani to that measure...

100% true. Especially seeing as the viyakaaran used today only made its appearance recently.

Gurbani is a Saroop of Akaal Purkh and it's true form can only be known through 'anubhav' as stated in the first pauri of Jaap Sahib and implied throughout Guru Sahib and Bhai Gurdas' Vaaran.

However, any study of Gurbani is good.

:goodpost: :vaheguru:

[Bijla Singh]

So sorry internet savvy Giani Ji worthy.gif please do Ardaas for the betterment of daas's jeevan, internet knowledge and forum understanding, lmao...

I am not a "Giani". I suggest you check its proper definition first. I do ardaas for gursikhi jeevan to Guru Sahib and you can do it for yourself too.

[N30S1NGH]

Mod Note: Your post is not being approved because its a personal attack, discuss the post not the poster.

Here is refined version of the post which was modified to avoid any personal attacks:

Here are some of the interesting observation in bijla singh post and topic on gurmat take on vedas:

1. People in this thread seems to make this is an vikayaran arths vs samparadiac arths issues when they talk about bijla singh post but this isn't seem to be case when you look at vikayaran arths done by prof sahib singh ji (master of vikayaran) you be suprised on this shabad, source- http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/1350.html

Prof sahib singh ji was considered vikayaran martand by tribal people living in the group/jathas etc, whenever his interpretation suited their mindset but when it doesn't they dump his interpretation, stick to their deep bigotry exist in their mind. This seem to be the case with bijla singh as well, one can search by his previous post.This has nothing to do vikayaran and samparadaic arths at all, but everything to do with this obsession with deep bigotry proving other dharam text wrong.

2. Bijla Singh seem to suggest that somehow gurbani rejects vedas on all levels, he seems to suggest or trying to prove that gurbani is consistent when it talks about status of vedas on all levels. During his attempts, he is actively looking for other teekakars gurbani interpretation of gur shabad listed above which matches with his mindset of outright rejection of vedas. I like to stress that inconsistency does not automatically constitutes as contradiction which he likes to claim. From scholarly perspective inconsistency may have negative con nations but from bhramgyani perspective it has do with dealing with gurbani meanings on different levels.

In this case, very very simple example for the sangat, no one is claiming vedas is higher than sri guru granth sahib ji. But please try to understand the concept. There are many shabads in gurbani which rejects rituals in vedas and many on same token which does upma or are neutral of vedas. For our friend bijla singh because of his black and white approach in sikhi- hows that possible? for him thats contradiction, but he goes out for mission. He tries to attempt misinterpreting gurbani which talks about netural or upma of vedas and push them as rejection by his vikayaran skills off course taken off from mish-mash set of scholars that he looked for and trying to push that as gospel truth by using vikayaran as his token. umm nice try but vikayaran martand- prof sahib singh which your tribal groups have run off to many times to suit their agenda have himself rejected such interpretation.

This is what it comes down to, no one is denying gurbani don't do rejection of baseless rituals in vedas but that does not automatically becomes outright/total rejection of vedas may be in your black and white sikhi world but not in actual sikh dharam. The very fact vedas also has tat/atamgyan which is similar to advait gurmat sidhant is very proof of this. Here is the link where i have discussed this with bhai kulbir singh ji of tapoban in very great detail - http://www.tapoban.org/forum/read.php?1,4508,page=1 (warning you will find views which is totally against vedas/vedant or totaly for vedas/vedant, i don't support any of them).

How could guru sahib reject vedas totally/outright when tatgyan of gurmat sidhant is same as tatgyan of vedas which talks about nirgun samaie, upma of nirgun vahiguroo, shabad surat marg.? I can fill up the forum where atamgyan/tatgyan of vedas is very similar with atamgyan/tatgyan of gurbani but i ll let people do their own khoj on this. Only people with deep bigotry, insecurity or taliban type mullahs when try to compare two religious text, look for differences first then get caught up it in and forget about similarities or tatgyan of both religious text and base their so called comparative study on this.

Gurbani rejects vedas based on low levels of shariat baseless rituals but on higher level, gurbani accepts vedas tatgyan not just vedas but all holy books may have all baseless rituals but essence is same like mystic traditions of other dharams- gnostics in christianity, Islam has sufism/shiaism, Buddhism have zen, trvide buddhism, hinduism have advait vedanta, Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka, Vallabha, Kashmiri Shaviasm, Gautamvaida.. what gives sri guru granth sahib bit of edge over them? few reasons - a) its very brand new dharam which gurbani being non altered compare to other scriptures despite of many failed attempted of internal bhausaria panthis. b) As some of other mystic traditions of dharams focus more on sargun upasana which only* sometimes can lead away from ultimate goal of nirgun, Gurmat straight focuses on nirgun via shabad marg and advait prem bhagti/gyan marg c) Gurbani have very straight- parchand tat gyan not clouded by shariat rules unlike other dharam scriptures which also have tat gyan but are clouded by shariat rituals( karam kaands).

All this above points we should be quite proud of, but having pride of above advantages of Gurmat over other mat is one thing but preserving this pride is another. Unfortunately, looking at the sad state of affairs of sikhs these days, it appears they are making the panth more in dubta whether its do with bhausaria panthis creating unnecessary doubts over gurbani in sri guru granth sahib ji and sri dasam granth sahib ji, bhai gurdas ji varan..sometimes even rejection or to do with idiolizing their tribalism over the ultimate goal.

At this point where it stands we are failing to preserve this pride of Gurmat but instead more interested in bhandi parchar, we have made putting down other dharams without reading their mystic traditions as our panthic mahan seva. I am sure Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is waiting for us to give us sairopa on the other end.

I ll post more detail response on his vikayaran arths in next couple of days. Thats it for now.

Anandmangal !

[Trigger Happy]

So sorry internet savvy Giani Ji worthy.gif please do Ardaas for the betterment of daas's jeevan, internet knowledge and forum understanding, lmao...

I am not a "Giani". I suggest you check its proper definition first. I do ardaas for gursikhi jeevan to Guru Sahib and you can do it for yourself too.

Nah, you dont say... Looks like your getting better at finding out things for 4 sure now. :lol:

Don't worry daas will do Ardaas for you Bhai Sahib Jio even if you dont want to do one for daas :D