Query

[Bundha]

As to the original query.

My relative who owns a clothing factory (don't they all !) once had a discussion with one of the workers who he was a friend with. The mussalman asked a delicate question about Sikhi which he aswsered truthfully,then he said now answer a question from me and answer truthfully, the guy said okay - Is there Kharamma of Guru Sahib Ji in the kabaa?

The Musallman said that Muslims will always deny this, but yes this is true. Not only this but there are statues of shivji also. This is because the ancient culture before the muslims came to that area worshipped Shivji, but the muslims build there own mosque over this as they were the conquerers, much in the same way they built a mosque over the birth place of Sri Ram Chandra Ji at Ayodhiya.

[dehodars]

Sikhism does not preach miracles. If a Sikh writes those slippers glow in the dark - like what happened to Krishna this is fake story. Bhai Bala Ji was a close companion of Guru Nanak Sahib and his stories may have been written out of anbhav and prem.

Go to the source the hymns of Guru Nanak ji. All blind rituals, rites, superstition is wrong. Another miracle written was that Guru Sahib rotated Mecca, to the average Hindu this would be a great story. Because the Vedas is full of myths, legends with morals. To the Sikh is to practice truth so the moral given to the Qazi that Allah is everywhere is the best guide.

[Bundha]

<<<< Another miracle written was that Guru Sahib rotated Mecca, to the average Hindu this would be a great story. >>>

Dehodars ,

Do you know who was the scribe who wrote the Adh Guru Granth Sahib Ji while Guru Arjun Dev Ji dictated it to Him?

Do you know this person was the contemporary of at least four Guru sahib Ji's?

Do you know his sanskaar was performed by Guru Hargobind Shahib Ji?

Could this person tell a lie? Could this person make up a story? and would Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji have allowed this to happen ?????

The person I refer to is Bhai Gurdaas Ji.

His compositions, the 40 vaars are most respected in the Sikh panth after Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth Sahib Ji and are regarded as the 'key' or kunji to understanding the gurbani.

In his // Bhai Gurdas Ji explicitly writes about the mecca kautack/incident and clearly shows that this is what happened, whichever way Guru Sahib Ji's charan were pointed to, there was mecca.

We ourselves in all our interlectual glory talk down our own faith, we are our own worst enemies, we dont need to look far, we oursleves are destroying our own glorious panth.

[Guest fordcapri]

a common Sikh may say that Guru Nanak jee spun the kaaba, but someone who knows sikhi wouldnt.

It was the people he had conversation with who were spun, when he said to them turn my feet in to a place where God is not.

Kaabaa spining is scientficaily imposible, if it had happned dont you think millions of Muslims would have known bout and it would have been documneted by them.

Its a myth, myths are always asscoited with Religious figures, this type of event is against silkh belives, as are bogus supertitions, rituals and miricales.

When you regard Guru Nanak Deve Ji, as you put it - as a man, then I suppose the kharmma will mean nothing to you and I guess you will only pay lip service to his gurbani also, as there is no piyare there.

If however you regard Guru Nanak Dev Ji as your true father then his Gurbani is sweeter then honey, but everything else associated with Him is also of the utmost importance. Just to glimpse something that has even been touched by Guru Sahib Ji will have a great significance for you.

This is not idol worship - it shows a great lack of thinking when these terms are banded out at every opportunity - it is a matter of intense piyare for your father.

Fordcapri, do a little test yourself. If you are married take a picture of your wife or kids, if not take a picture of your mother or father, place it on the floor and stamp on it and cures it. Can you do that ? it is only paper and ink right ? Even if you manage to do it there will be something pulling at your heart that what you are doing in not right, why ?

Because even if the link is tenuous, there is still a link and a piyare and love for that person in the picture. This is not idol worship but love. In the same way Guru Nanak Dev Ji is our father and whatever belonged to him should have an intense link for us becuase we LOVE our father.

so you are in love with shoes ???

[Bundha]

<<< so you are in love with shoes ??? >>>> - If those shoes belong to my true father, then YES absolutely !

<<<< a common Sikh may say that Guru Nanak jee spun the kaaba, but someone who knows sikhi wouldnt. >>>>

So, what you are saying is that Bhai Gurdas Ji was a common Sikh and didn't know Sikhi, for he says clearly that mecca spun,

and you know Sikhi, because you knows it didn't ......... nice.

<<<< It was the people he had conversation with who were spun, when he said to them turn my feet in to a place where God is not. >>>>

No, this is misinterpretation, read the Vaar. If the people were spun then there was no need for Bahi Gurdas Ji to say that Gurus feet were dragged around and each time the kaaba was there. the Vars are not metaphores and are a great wealth of knowledge of the life and times of the Gurus and the gursikhs of the time, they give historic events and are a wealth of sikh knowledge.

<<< Kaabaa spining is scientficaily imposible, if it had happned dont you think millions of Muslims would have known bout and it would have been documneted by them. >>>>

LOL, what does science know? If was only a little while that 'science' thought the earth was flat. They still don't believe there is life on other planets, yet Gurbani says that the whole universe praises the one Akaal Purkh.

Why don't you go see the place of Bhagat Ravidas Ji near Banaras. Ravidas Ji was of low caste and when he entered the Mandir the Brahmins wouldn't let him in so he went and sat at the back of the Mandir and meditated on God, when Akal Purkh saw this He physically moved the Mandir so it pointed to where Ravidas Ji was sitting, it is there now, pointing the wrong way, if don't believe then go and see.

Right, these are the same muslims who believe that we are all kuffirs, sure they are going to sing about this from their rooftops. When the Quazi dragged Guru Ji's charan four times each time when the people looked up they saw the kaaba still in the direction of Guru Ji's charan, however this happened it happened. Those who saw Guru Ji and recognised the divine light shining brightly fell at his feet, those who did not went on their way, mouthing off, as is the way of the world.

<< Its a myth, myths are always asscoited with Religious figures, this type of event is against silkh belives, as are bogus supertitions, rituals and miricales. >>>

I take it that you also do not believe in the separation of the Panj Piyarays heads , a myth was it ?

What about Baba Deep Singh Ji? just got a cut on his neck did he ?

What about when Guru Nanak Dev Ji entered the beni and went to the court of Akaal Purkh for three days? all in the mind was it ?

Don't go their yaar, I have this debate a hundred and one times before.

[HSD*^]

LOL, what does science know? If was only a little while that 'science' thought the earth was flat. They still don't believe there is life on other planets, yet Gurbani says that the whole universe praises the one Akaal Purkh.

woah woah, hold on there. science isnt our enemy. no scientist said the world was flat, that was the christians (to support their beliefs). and no scientist has conclusive proof alien life doesnt exist, so the jury is still out on that. we can use science to defend sikhi, something other religions have a hard time doing. lets not throw that advantage away due to hot-headedness.

[Guest fordcapri]

<<< so you are in love with shoes ??? >>>> - If those shoes belong to my true father, then YES absolutely !

<<<< a common Sikh may say that Guru Nanak jee spun the kaaba, but someone who knows sikhi wouldnt. >>>>

So, what you are saying is that Bhai Gurdas Ji was a common Sikh and didn't know Sikhi, for he says clearly that mecca spun,

and you know Sikhi, because you knows it didn't ......... nice.

<<<< It was the people he had conversation with who were spun, when he said to them turn my feet in to a place where God is not. >>>>

No, this is misinterpretation, read the Vaar. If the people were spun then there was no need for Bahi Gurdas Ji to say that Gurus feet were dragged around and each time the kaaba was there. the Vars are not metaphores and are a great wealth of knowledge of the life and times of the Gurus and the gursikhs of the time, they give historic events and are a wealth of sikh knowledge.

<<< Kaabaa spining is scientficaily imposible, if it had happned dont you think millions of Muslims would have known bout and it would have been documneted by them. >>>>

LOL, what does science know? If was only a little while that 'science' thought the earth was flat. They still don't believe there is life on other planets, yet Gurbani says that the whole universe praises the one Akaal Purkh.

Why don't you go see the place of Bhagat Ravidas Ji near Banaras. Ravidas Ji was of low caste and when he entered the Mandir the Brahmins wouldn't let him in so he went and sat at the back of the Mandir and meditated on God, when Akal Purkh saw this He physically moved the Mandir so it pointed to where Ravidas Ji was sitting, it is there now, pointing the wrong way, if don't believe then go and see.

Right, these are the same muslims who believe that we are all kuffirs, sure they are going to sing about this from their rooftops. When the Quazi dragged Guru Ji's charan four times each time when the people looked up they saw the kaaba still in the direction of Guru Ji's charan, however this happened it happened. Those who saw Guru Ji and recognised the divine light shining brightly fell at his feet, those who did not went on their way, mouthing off, as is the way of the world.

<< Its a myth, myths are always asscoited with Religious figures, this type of event is against silkh belives, as are bogus supertitions, rituals and miricales. >>>

I take it that you also do not believe in the separation of the Panj Piyarays heads , a myth was it ?

What about Baba Deep Singh Ji? just got a cut on his neck did he ?

What about when Guru Nanak Dev Ji entered the beni and went to the court of Akaal Purkh for three days? all in the mind was it ?

Don't go their yaar, I have this debate a hundred and one times before.

No way do i belive that Panj Piyare heads sepertaed..i take it you mean 1699, i belive Guru Gobind Dingh Jee selected the 5, and no heads were asked for.

Baba Deep Singh is a sheed thats all i need to no regarding the shaeedi.

the last one im sure about, as would have look in to it further.

[saint-soldier]

a common Sikh may say that Guru Nanak jee spun the kaaba, but someone who knows sikhi wouldnt.

It was the people he had conversation with who were spun, when he said to them turn my feet in to a place where God is not.

Kaabaa spining is scientficaily imposible, if it had happned dont you think millions of Muslims would have known bout and it would have been documneted by them.

Its a myth, myths are always asscoited with Religious figures, this type of event is against silkh belives, as are bogus supertitions, rituals and miricales.

your post reminds me of a katha by i think baba hari singh ji in relation to kaaba spinning, ill send you a link soon, listen to it and it'll change your view on the topic coz it changed mine.

[Tony]

Fateh . . . .

I did put a note in my original post requesting not to highjack this thread; I am glad I that this proves that SIKHS just dont listen (including me) and will try to prove our point where ever we can; regardless if it is the right place or not.

My query was merely on finding facts on the historic basis; there seems to be evidence of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Kharavan (Slippers) being in Kabba; over many years. There seems to be evidence that Kabba has been rebuilt over time. There also seems to be written evidence of this in many books and illustrations that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Kharavan were / are in Kabba. However in my little research I have been unable to find any of the books or the illustrations. Many Katha Vachak also seem to provide relations to this; and also in general there is enough second hand information available from word of mouth.

My mere reason for posting this question here was to see if the intellectual beings can relate some positive comments and may lead me to the right links - but alas not! May be if some one has access to the Biritish Library can shed some light on this.

I will appreicate if you have solid links to any books (E.g. Nanak My Master); any ISBN Numbers; or if anyone has any such material; then appreciate if they can provide me links to it.

On a seprate note; we are all individuals. We all have different habits, values, abilities. If someone has interest in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Slippers then let it be. If someone is of a very high spiritual value then I respect them for it. Let people be what they are; as long as they are on the right track lets encourage them. If they are on the right track lets educate them and bring them to the right track.

However with my little thought; If you love Bani - Gur Bani - then you will love the Guru's. And everything about them. Remeber the sakhi about Peer Budhu Shah. When Guru Gobind Singh ji asked him what do you want. He asked for Guru ji's hair from Guru Ji's Khanga (comb). Why did he do that. Apparently he could have asked for anything!

Fateh . . . .

[kuthaman]

Fateh . . . .

I did put a note in my original post requesting not to highjack this thread; I am glad I that this proves that SIKHS just dont listen (including me) and will try to prove our point where ever we can; regardless if it is the right place or not.

My query was merely on finding facts on the historic basis; there seems to be evidence of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Kharavan (Slippers) being in Kabba; over many years. There seems to be evidence that Kabba has been rebuilt over time. There also seems to be written evidence of this in many books and illustrations that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Kharavan were / are in Kabba. However in my little research I have been unable to find any of the books or the illustrations. Many Katha Vachak also seem to provide relations to this; and also in general there is enough second hand information available from word of mouth.

My mere reason for posting this question here was to see if the intellectual beings can relate some positive comments and may lead me to the right links - but alas not! May be if some one has access to the Biritish Library can shed some light on this.

I will appreicate if you have solid links to any books (E.g. Nanak My Master); any ISBN Numbers; or if anyone has any such material; then appreciate if they can provide me links to it.

On a seprate note; we are all individuals. We all have different habits, values, abilities. If someone has interest in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Slippers then let it be. If someone is of a very high spiritual value then I respect them for it. Let people be what they are; as long as they are on the right track lets encourage them. If they are on the right track lets educate them and bring them to the right track.

However with my little thought; If you love Bani - Gur Bani - then you will love the Guru's. And everything about them. Remeber the sakhi about Peer Budhu Shah. When Guru Gobind Singh ji asked him what do you want. He asked for Guru ji's hair from Guru Ji's Khanga (comb). Why did he do that. Apparently he could have asked for anything!

Fateh . . . .

Here is the Gurdwara the Sandals were supposedly brought back to.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurdwar...ara_Sahib_(Uch)