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in Gurbani "vedas" do not refer to hindu scriptures.

"In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons." (919)

the word "vedas" mean books that speak of truth and nothing else. but hindu vedas talk about hindu rituals like how to worship idols and how to sacrifice animals. also, these four vedas conflict with each other. so "vedas" means books of truth.

"I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh Ji )

So in my opinion, Guru Ji cannot reject krishna and then praise him, you know? I mean if Guru Nanak Dev Ji was krishna then why would Guru Ji reject himself now? there must be some other meaning at deeper level. Guru does not take birth. name Nanak is name of JOT not body. Guru Ji cannot be krishna because krishna took birth but Guru Ji is not in this cycle "Janam Maran Dohoon Mein Nahin". but thanks for your quotes and I will look into that and I will try to post if I find something different. post some more if you can including Bhai Sahib's work. it will help me learn the truth. Just to note, yesterday I was listening to katha and it was mentioned that Gurbani does not conflict with each other. We have to look at each shabad separately and see in what way and context was the shabad written and for what purpose. couple examples were given. I will give you one. This shabad is from Bhagat Naamdev Ji. He says:

"My Sovereign Lord King is Raam Chandra, the So

n of the King Dasrat'h; prays Naam Dayv, I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||4||4||" (973)

Now this shabad cleary means that Naamdev Ji regarded Raam Chand as his God. Now look at the next shabad.

"O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3||" (874)

This shabad rejects Raam Chand and Bhagat Ji talks about him like Ram Chand was just an ordinary man.

The reason for these two different shabads is because first Bhagat Ji used to worship God in Sargun form. After doing Bhagtee Bhagat Ji realized the truth that God's true form is Nirgun so he rejected all sargun forms because body perishes. One after another you will have to look for a new one. So Bhagat Ji says he only worships the Nirgun waheguru who never born and never dies.

Now read something from Puranas.

"In Hinduism the NARASINGA PURANA, Page 169 : Abithana Sinthamani, the Vedas and `holy' Puranas claim that the Earth is flat. Today it has been proven beyond a doubt by the scientists that the Earth is round. Yet the bigoted Brahmins refuse to believe this and have hence set up a `Jambudvipa Institute' in Gujarat which tries to `prove' the Vedic flat Earth theory ! The VISHNU PURANA says that sun is 800,000 miles and moon is 2,200,000 miles away from the Earth. Astronomy has now proved that the moon is nearer to the Earth, i.e. 240,000 miles and that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away from the Earth. MARKANDEYA PURANA says that the Earth has an area of 4,000,000,000 square miles. According to astronomy, it is only 190,700,000 square miles."

taken from www.searchsikhism.com

So again, I will study Bhatt Sawaiyaas. I have katha but it does not go upto Bhatt Saal. thanks again. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh

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Sat Sri Akal:

Truth be told, the only thing that keeps Hindus as a united community is the presence of Brahmins and the caste system. Besides this, every town has its own diety, every town has its own rituals and every town has its own culture in India. The only thing keeping these people united is:

"sikhaa kann charhaa-ee-aa gur baraahman thi-aa."

The Brahmin whispers the teaching "I am your Guru" into the ear.

(Asa Di Vaar)

or do whatever your guru brahmin says to do. It seems that the Barhmins wants to whisper this into everyone's ears nowadays, not just Hindus.

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thank u bunga ji then if gurbani does not refer to hindu scriptures then do you mann dasam granth as gurbani? 3 banis out of 5 come from there every day hunah? what about the qoutes of dasam bani you gave earlier which condemned vedas? did they mean the vedas here? but when their in favour their not talking about vedas? If vedas meant books of truth and nothing else then why mention vedas at all? and what about shabads where the quran and katebs is mentioned? does that not mean the katebs anymore?

If im not mistaken Guru Gobind Singh himself addresses himself as lowly too before God as well as hindu gods i get your point.

Normally singh i would agree with you that krishna would be condemned and thats final but the bhatt swayeh on krishna are giving us a different message two times. My understanding so far which maybe wrong is that krishna may have been something in a previous yug but kal yug the guru is Guru Granth sahib ji thats what i draw from the bhatt bani whilst krishna is rejected in parts of dasam bani and at the end of krishan chapter called God but i shoudnt say that until i give you bhai jodh singhs page number on the sgpc vols.

If a point meant one thing in 50 odd verses and thats that i would accept it as final, but when theres other shabads in lesser numbers saying something else my mind is rethinking. In some peoples thinking a contradiction is rude and offensive when applied to religion, im not saying all of bani does that, but perhaps it could mean that nothing in creation is fixed except for God himself. My interpretation is its not that its rude but maybe that message is theres deeper things behind a difference.

Singh did Not Guru

Nanak ji take birth like krishna? On your point about rGuru Ji rejecting himself Dasam Bani says Ram avtar created caste system in another part it says ram is god but in Guru Granth Sahib caste is rejected as well as incarnations. Rejection also occurs there. Perhaps im wrong but maybe the times conditions environment beliefs of the different yugs are not to remain the same such as people then did meditationf of thousands of years in seclusion according to bhai gurdas ji vara , but in sikhi in kal yug we r ment to work and meditate at home and not run away. krishna may have been something in that yug but in kal yug its Guru Granth sahib jis message. Like you said there maybe something deeper.

I feel i shouldnt carry on further on this topic as i maybe disrespecting gurbani by taking out one bit and then another maybe its my manmutt mind thats very small and needs to open up, forgive me this is my confusion i would like to withdraw from this. If as you said you heard katha that says bani does not conflict and theres a gianni with kamaiya behind that then my own understandings are failing me and i ask forgivness.

ms514 what makes you think hindus are united? bihar hindus murder each other over caste the low caste hindus have got their own fauj to ruck the bihari rajputs, the haryana and yadav pardeshi jatts oppress the low caste hindus in haryana, recently theres been wars between different hindu groups in some states because one lot migrated and settled in another the natives didnt like it resulting in killings. Indian society is not united by caste but split by it the way people identify with each other out there at the moment is by baradri clan and not even religion. I think the future this will break down due to western globalising and media bombardment.

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GuruFatehJi.

Don't get me wrong but I think we as Sikhs, a seprate religion, have done precious little to do anything to stand up againsts the RSS. They continue to pollute the Indian minds with their propaganda and some weaker minds are following them like sheep.

Just the other night, I was disheartened to see a news clip on ZeeNews about car sales companies who hire Pandits to do prayers on customers who have just purchased new cars, saving the customers the 'headache' of going to the temple. And guess who they show receiving the Aarti in the clip? A Sikh. A turbaned Sikh. Together with his wife and a patka son. Eat that. A Sikh being shown on a global network, receiving the Pooja froma Hindu Pandit, as he does the honours of cracking the coconut and getting the car blessed.

Now where do we stand and what have we done to denounce not only the propaganda of the RSS, but the actions of the few who are giving the Sikh religion a tag we are so trying hard to break? If a Sikh can be seen in public, acting like a Hindu, what face do we show the world? What are we trying to tell the world? If we just sit on our laurels, the RSS is going to win. Now who will stand up and seriously do something?

If the RSS is doing something wrong, so are we. What are we doing to undo what they are weaving? We need a revolution, somehow, somewhere and stop relying on Gurudwaras and SGPC to come out and defend us. How can they help us when they have been sold out to these elements?

:umm:

L*

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RSS Stand on Sikhs ( yes keep standing baandro...no seat for u to sit on )

We regard the Sikh religion as a separate religion ( barri meherbanni tuhaddi ), but we regard the Sikh people as belonging to our Samaj ( phittay mooh tuhadde). When we say that they are a part of the one great Hindu Samaj, we do not deny the existence of their separate religion and separate beliefs ( yes all u do is twist words when necessary...saaleyo tuhaddi te ). Hindu Samaj is a commonwealth of many religions ( fer asi ki kariye ). It includes idol worshippers as well as those that are against idol worship ( and it includes those idols as well ). It includes those who accept the authority of the Vedas as well as those who do not ( and it includes those who dont take bath and those who take bath twice a day, now where do i fit in :T: ). They are all included in the wider Hindu conceptualization ( kari jaao include ).

No RSS Invention ( yes only RSS intervention )

This is not an R.S.S. invention ( ikk vaari sunda nai, mai keha intervention ). It has been there for centuries ( yea lord indra was your 1st president ). This is recognized also by our constitution ( your constitution has ey

es? ). Explanation II given under Article 25 says, "In sub-clause (B) of clause (2) the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jain or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly ( not to forget a policy of assimilation that will target all minorities )." It should be noted that the Hindu Code Bill ( so now u make people pay bills in the name of religion? nice! ), though it contains the word 'Hindu', is applicable to Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists ( mai keha na, policy of assimilation, and did u note the "a$$" in the beginning of assimilation? ). We desire that it should be applicable to all, including the Christians and the Muslims ( and americans and russians and arabs and british and chinese and japanese ), as is envisaged in Article 44 of our constitution ( article 420 ).

The basic postulate is that 'Hindu' is not a religion but a way of life ( way to go thumbs_up.gif ), or more precisely a certain value-system or culture ( value da system? ah kado shuru kita :T: ). One of the basic tenets of this value system is to accept the validity of all faiths and religions ( and try level best to ASSimilate them ). If we deny this plurality, we will cease to be Hindus ( and lose our kursi ). Many Sikhs attend the R.S.S. Shakhas ( and yawn all the way through ), but nobody is asked to remove his beard or his pugree ( tu marna kehke? h

ain? khoteya! ). R.S.S. will never try to obliterate the identity of the Sikhs ( so that they can be watchmen on ur borders ). That will be against the very grain of the R.S.S ( give some grains to the starving population of india ).

o so we belong to hindu samaj? ohmy.gif they include idol worshippers and non idol worshippers? WOW. this is a group that will get along very well between the different views rolleyes.gif

:g :v :g :v

Even the constitution of Hindia categorizes us under Hinduism.
ohmy.gif

What are the Sikhs in punjab doin? sittin in the house with bangles in their arms? :umm: Why haven't they done something about this? WHy haven't the political pplz like captain amrinderpal the CM of punjab done something about this? or badal? or the pm's in punjab? what the heck was "gyani zail singh" doin when he was president of india?

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I have already stated that each shabad has a different meaning and we must look at in what context and for purpose it was written. One shabad might say "vedas" as "books speaking truth" but another shabad might mean something else. we need to look at the whole shabad esp rahao part. you are taking literal meanings ans this is why i told you to study the shabads if something doesn't make sense. i personally ask gyanis and clear my doubts cuz everyone has doubts. i gave one example regarding vedas but i did not say "vedas" have only one meaning in every shabad. the meanings applied only to that particular shabad. b4 you misunderstand me again, try to study each shabad separately and ask someone who has had santhiya.

I believe in Dasam Bani but you act like a fool when you compare it with Guru Granth Sahib's Bani. I already said that the purpose for writing Dasam Bani was different. when did i oppose dasam bani? Amrit Swayiaas were composed for different purpose and chaupai was composed for another purpose. chandi di vaar, chaubis avtaars and raam katha is for different purpose. chrittars are for different purpose. does not mean guru ji believed in this stuff. i wrote it many times and writing this again b4 you come up with some stupid stuff again go read piara singh padam's book cuz you are missing the whole point and the book is written for ppl like you who took the literal meaning. bhai kahan singh had to write hum hindu nahin cuz hindus and other ppl were taking the literal meanings of gurbani and misunderstanding it completely.

let me tell you about krishan and ram. i never wwanted to write this but you are making me. krishan had 16108 wives and eac

h gave birth to 10 sons and one daughter. full of lust. he was not married to radha. he seduced paarjaat gopi by cheating. when he was a kid he would steal the clothes of women while they were bathing in the river and did bajjar kurehats. now Guru Ji would never do such a thing like that. would he? if you say yes then you are a fool. Read rehatnamas to understand "Apnee istri jo ratt hoyee". krishan being the lustful guy can never be Jot Nanak. Guru JI's rejection of krishan "i do not meditate upon krishna" sums up everything. for other shabads, meanings are different from each other.

regarding raam. he was born not because of his father's union with his mother but because a brahmin gave a bowl of kheer to her mother which she ate and gave birth to ram. also, king dasrath gave all his three wives to brahmins so they could "purify" them. he killed king bali by attacking from behind. his wife seeta, enjoyed the pleasures of ravan's bed. he being the god himself could not free his wife alone, he had to get help from some monkey army. if this monkey hanuman could fly then why didn't he increase his size and took the whole army across the ocean? instead this god had to build a bridge which took him some 12 years compared to ravan who flew across the ocean in one year. so ravan the evil was more powerful than this god ram. anyways, he freed his wife, came back to his kingdom but then by listening to some washerman he kicks out his wife while she was pregnant. what a god? she gets kicked out and gives birth to ram's son in a jungle living with rishi vaalmick. but after few years she gives brith to another boy and quite surprisingly raam was not around. so who was the real father? i can go on but my point is these hindu gods did nothing but bajjar kurehats and what was their inspiring messahe to the humanity? they did idol worship and followed the brahmins. raam had to go with brahmins to get education. why did god need education? he had to beg from house to house for food for his brahmin teach

er.

all this compared to the lives of the Gurus is nothing. Guru Ji did totally opposite things. rejected adultery and idol worship. rejected begging for food and taught sikhs to earn their living by working hard. taught sikhs to never turn his back in the battlefield and never attack from behind. Gurus taught to respect women and "nagan na dekhay naeka". Ram created caste system but Guru Ji denounced it but why would Guru Ji create something and then say "oh i made a mistake, now don't practice it anymore." Guru Ji rejecting his own message? i don't think so. Guru Ji do not make mistakes. writing raam katha and stuff is for very different purpose [admin-cut: please avoid such unfounded accusations on Sikhsangat.com members - 8] if Guru Ji were krishan or raam then why didn't He start SIkhism then and give equality to women? you are very misteken . bhatt bani talks about something else. each shabad has different meaning and different purpose. and i did give you one example of bhagat naamdev ji. did that not make sense or what? i've had it enough. go read "Dasam Granth Darshan" first and go to any taksal or anyone else to find the real meanings. web sites containing english translation do very poor job when it comes to these shabads. i can't give you the meeanings of every single shabad. that is something you should do on your own. you can carry this further but i won't reply cuz i have said everything i wanted to. you can keep questioning. sorry for rude language but you repeated many things over and over. waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

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i already told you in my previous post i want to withdraw from this topic . i dont want to bring up one bani against the other i realised i could be doin beyadbi of guru ji. even after i wrote that you come back insulting me. this is where i loose respect even after admitting your points are technically right on religion.

[admin cut - profane, insulting -8] to call me a fool and rss? name the time and place look me in the eye and say that to my face im in the uk. i already told you im withdrawing from this topic and you dare come running back and insult me. if someone is wrong they are wrong i was wrong end of i faced it. you still didnt have the heart to see that.

I was questioning i realised my gulti many times i asked to leave this. you got no right to call people rss here just because they dont have knowledge you have. You call me a fool and and rss? i didnt even have it in me to call you pakhandi. you call me rss? just because i had a literal interpretation. if your excuses is repeating then why dont you just back off after saying it?

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RSS Stand on Sikhs ( yes keep standing baandro...no seat for u to sit on )

We regard the Sikh religion as a separate religion ( barri meherbanni tuhaddi ), but we regard the Sikh people as belonging to our Samaj ( phittay mooh tuhadde). When we say that they are a part of the one great Hindu Samaj, we do not deny the existence of their separate religion and separate beliefs ( yes all u do is twist words when necessary...saaleyo tuhaddi te ). Hindu Samaj is a commonwealth of many religions ( fer asi ki kariye ). It includes idol worshippers as well as those that are against idol worship ( and it includes those idols as well ). It includes those who accept the authority of the Vedas as well as those who do not ( and it includes those who dont take bath and those who take bath twice a day, now where do i fit in :T: ). They are all included in the wider Hindu conceptualization ( kari jaao include ).

No RSS Invention ( yes only RSS intervention )

This is not an R.S.S. invention ( ikk vaari sunda nai, mai keha intervention ). It has been there for centuries ( yea lord indra was your 1st president ). This is recognized also by our constitution ( your constitution has

eyes? ). Explanation II given under Article 25 says, "In sub-clause (B) of clause (2) the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jain or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly ( not to forget a policy of assimilation that will target all minorities )." It should be noted that the Hindu Code Bill ( so now u make people pay bills in the name of religion? nice! ), though it contains the word 'Hindu', is applicable to Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists ( mai keha na, policy of assimilation, and did u note the "a$$" in the beginning of assimilation? ). We desire that it should be applicable to all, including the Christians and the Muslims ( and americans and russians and arabs and british and chinese and japanese ), as is envisaged in Article 44 of our constitution ( article 420 ).

The basic postulate is that 'Hindu' is not a religion but a way of life ( way to go thumbs_up.gif ), or more precisely a certain value-system or culture ( value da system? ah kado shuru kita :T: ). One of the basic tenets of this value system is to accept the validity of all faiths and religions ( and try level best to ASSimilate them ). If we deny this plurality, we will cease to be Hindus ( and lose our kursi ). Many Sikhs attend the R.S.S. Shakhas ( and yawn all the way through ), but nobody is asked to remove his beard or his pugree ( tu marna kehke

? hain? khoteya! ). R.S.S. will never try to obliterate the identity of the Sikhs ( so that they can be watchmen on ur borders ). That will be against the very grain of the R.S.S ( give some grains to the starving population of india ).

:umm: I love your remarks in there . Great job man keep it up! :D

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