In What State Does The Soul Come From According To Sikhi?

[Radhacharan Das]

Hare Krishna, wjkk wjkf, Pranaam

My name is Radhacharan Das, I am a Vaishnav (Hare Krishna). I am a friend of many singhs, mainly akj singhs. anyways i'm interested to find out about the concept held by sikhi about the origin of the soul (atma).

If i'm correct in understanding, sikhi teachings say that:

The soul has come from god, it was one with god in the past. we individual souls can be compared to being little drops (boondh) of water and the Lord can be compared to being the ocean (saagar). And the param gati (supreme destination/goal) of sikhs is to become one with god again.

From my understanding this would mean that we would become GOD, because we (the drop of water) would merge into the ocean (god). When the drop of water goes into the ocean, it no longer remains a drop of water, it loses its individuality. So according to sikhi, do we lose our individuality if we merge with Bhagavaan?

My next question which is also related to this is:

If we were God before, none different from Hari (God), then how did we ever become separated from him? Because from what I understand, the atma only comes to this world because the atma becomes covered and bewildered by illusion (Maya). But if we were god before, and god is (Gyaan Swaroop) in full knowledge, then how could god become affected by Maya (illusion)? Because maya is darkness, ignorance, illusion and God on the other hand is light and knowledge personified and can never come under maya, because he is the controller of Maya, Maya Devi is his servant (dasi).

I know this is quite deep and philosophical, but if anyone can answer and help me and others to understand, would be a great help.

Haribol

Radhacharan Das, Gurufateh Ji

[Radhacharan Das]

testing, sorry just checking something

[Paran-Singh]

Brother you are wiser than most, and so I shall try my best to answer you just as wisely.

You hold correct knowledge in the origins of the soul, and to answer your question we must look at that moment, if we can, where Waheguru did create all that is, was, and ever shall be; the start of this universe.

One who is as knowledgeable as you must know that this is not the first Aeon, nor will it be the last, for Waheguru uses an everlasting cycle, with which the ancient people used the zodiac to relate to, with intervals of approximately 2000 years, then next step of the cycle from Pisces into Aquarius is in the year 2150.

But before all of this, Waheguru sat in meditation for countless aeons, more time than man can ever conceive. At Waheguru's ordained time he with one breath emmitted the vibration which is the essence of all sub atomic particles, Ohm and gave out his energy to create the Universe as a small extension of his own being.

From science we know that mass is simply a form of energy, and the energy originated from the expansion of the universe in the "big bang" and so everything in the universe is part of that original release of energy, even me and you are simply pieces of Waheguru's energy. Our souls are separate from the energy which is mass, or maya, the illusion, it is the same unseen energy just as the vibration of atoms is unseen to the untrained eye, so the soul is invisible to the untrained eye.

Waheguru has tricked us into believing that we are separate and means to test us in our own ability to find the truth, when all we are given is lies. Just as science tells us that the expanding universe will one day retract back into nothingness, Sikhi teaches that Waheguru will, at the end of the age of Kaljug, bring his creation back into nothingness, he shall obliterate the Universe and his wondrous cycle shall start again.

In conclusion it can be consireded that the whole of creation and the universe, is simply an exersice of Waheguru, he is testing himself in his own power by seeing which parts of

his creation will return to him. In Sikhi we call this the World Drama.

ਜਗੁ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਬਾਜੀ ਬਨੀ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਾਇ ॥

जगु सुपना बाजी बनी खिन महि खेलु खेलाइ ॥

Jag supnā bājī banī kẖin mėh kẖel kẖelā▫e.

The world is a drama, staged in a dream. In a moment, the play is played out.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji

[Radhacharan Das]

Hare Krishna, Parnaam Bhaaji, thanks for the intelligent response, i liked the scientific content also. I think it's good when we can incorporate modern scientific thought (well some of it) and show how our own teachings/philosophy fit together etc.

You said

"Brother you are wiser than most" , "One who is as knowledgeable as you", thanks bhaaji but don't puff this arrogant animal (me) up anymore. But thank you for ur respect, I can see your good intentions.

Paran Singh Said:

"Waheguru has tricked us into believing that we are separate and means to test us in our own ability to find the truth, when all we are given is lies."

But why would the Lord trick us, because in essence he is tricking himself (because we were meant to be Waheguru in the past). If we are god, then why would god want to subject himself to so many sufferings/troubles and also indulge in things like kaam/lust, krodh/anger etc. Because in my understanding of Vedic and Sikhi Knowledge, God is beyond the 3 guna (qualities) such as sattvagun, rajogun, tamogun. Therefore the wise either call him nirguna (free of qualities/or free from material qualities) or that he is made up of Shuddh sattva (pure sattvagun).

So how could someone who is totally situated in total knowledge,pureness be touched by the dirt of this material world and maya?

Also where does maya originate from? Does it make its appearance first within Waheguru or within the jeev (us) the separated atmas?

Paran singh said:

"Sikhi teaches that Waheguru will, at the end of the age of Kaljug, bring his creation back into nothingness, he shall obliterate the Universe and his wondrous cycle shall start again."

Sorry I'm not trying to be a smartguy here, but just wanted to point out that, Lord Hari/Waheguru doesn't destroy the Universe at the end of this Kaliyug. There are many many Satyugs,Tretayugs,Dvaparyugs and Kaliyugs that pass during the duration of the Universe. In Vedic understanding time is divided into 14 Manvantars also, and one manvantar has like for example maybe a couple of thousand Kaliyugs along with the other yugs. This understanding may be same as in Sikhi, I don't know. Anyways thanks for ur reply again.

Hari Hari!

Radhacharan Das

[Singh, Mahan]

Radhacharn Das , very good question and you already have answered most of the question your self.. However some concepts that your are applying are those of Hindu concepts. Guru Nanak Dev ji has used many words which were commonly used in the religious language at that time, but meaning is quite different from that of what is understood in Hindu Philosophy. S. Puran Singh has also supplied a very good answer. So my post is only to give a little bit of more insight ((as I have understood it)). Please, keep in mind that where as Sikhi is a way of life it also is a journey of a seeker – trying to understand – learning – seeking who we are. So every one is at a different stage of learning. I may not be at that stage as you gentlemen are, but I shall try to give my view from what I understand up to now.

Per Sikhi, God is infinite- Infinite continuum ( pervades everywhere), Creator, Timeless , ---, and Ultimate reality (SAT- Sat Naam). God is the Ultimate truth- ultimate reality because all that there is comes from the Infinite and when it gets destroyed it goes back into the Infinite God). So the attributes of SAT pervades everywhere. The universe has also been created within the Infinite - that is, it a part of the Infinite that has been wrapped within Maya and has become manifest as sarguna ( visible with the attributes of matter). The universe in its present form will get destroyed sometime – may be billions of years from now and will go back to the Infinite “SAT”. Till then it is reality with the attributes of matter. It will stay within the envelope of Maya till then. Concept of Maya in Sikhism is that which is ” transitory” and has the attributes of matter and energy. The universe is the field of matter, energy and time. That is what Maya is - per SIKHI . It is not illusion but a transitory phase in the Infinite. Universe has been created within an envelope of Maya. According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Formless and Tiimeless God has created Maya first (before creating the universe). As long Maya exists, all those things which are in its envelope and have shorter life span will see it as some thing REAL and of material attributes.

Now back to what soul is --

SAT pervades everywhere. So, SAT pervades in through out the universe also. An tiny—tiny- -tiny part of SAT wraps it self within envelope of Maya to be able to “operate” within the universe ( earth for purpose of our discussion) which itself exists within the field of “maya”. That is what SGGS seems to be saying that all forms of life (Jiva) are a minuscule bit of “SAT” wrapped in the veil of Maya. Each Jiva (life form) functions according to Hukam (Will of God - laws of Infinite God) assigned to them. Each life form is supposed to act according to Hukum. In this way we also become in part of material beings to work and do thing as per Hukam in the field of Maya. Amongst the Jiva, the human beings have attained a stage where it can understand who we are and how we are attached to this material world (maya). The human being also have the ability of removing the envelope (veil) of maya that surrounds the soul. Gurbani spends fair amount of emphasis that maya is not an illusion it is a transitory field of action. So if we want remove the veil of maya that surrounds us and become one with God again (merge back into God), it is not through renunciation, but with action that is in harmony with the Hukam ( walkin along the path of Hukam). Gurbani also tells us that what keeps the soul attached to field of maya, are the five things Kam, Kroth, Loh, Moh, Hankar ( Lust, anger, greed, holding tightly on to things we love- falling in love with things that are transitory in nature, and ego). If and when the veil of Maya is lifted, by the grace of God, the soul merges back into the original source (into SAT the ultimate reality). When the soul has completed its journey it merges into the infinite and no individuality is left. It becomes part of pure nirguna form of God.

[alias]

gurfateh jeeoz

Radhacharan Das, you have a beautiful name!! it touches me. but this aside.

you have a lot of questions.

1. our soul is from god, it is our job to merge that soul with god/ find a way to merge this soul with god. in doing so, we ourselves dissolve into god, in one sense we do become god, but mroe correctly, we mearge/dissolve into god. just as a grain of salt dissolves in the crystal clear water and is indistinguishable with the water, so do we dissolve and become one with god. the naad is what we dissolve into. the vibration. as far as my understanding goes(even i havent understood this metephor fully) god is the vibration that the entire srist is standing on. this is what we are supposed to vibrate on through becoming spiritually charged. i hope this answers your first 2 questions of >becoming god< , and whether we >loose our individuality<.

2. how the 'separation' happened.

swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie ]

saachae thae pavanaa bhaeiaa pavanai thae jal hoe |

From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.

jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie ]

jal thae thribhavan saajiaa ghatt ghatt joth samoe |

From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.

inrmlu mYlw nw QIAY sbid rqy piq hoie ]3]

niramal mailaa naa theeai sabadh rathae path hoe |3|

The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained. ||3||

after creating the world, god created the air (hydrogen and oxygen) then came the water (H2O) then came the 'three worlds', then life. in this life, god installed his jot/light inside all. without the light of god installed, the body becomes a corpse. i.e. dead, therefore, all life have the light of god. this is the GAME of god. so as he wishes the world to be/ come about, so it will. i look at this as god taking a part of himself and installing it in us. this is how we come into this world.

once we are here, born in this world, somtimes even still in the womb(smokers/alcoholics), we get polluted and maya pulls the wool/curtian over us. this is how much maya has grown. it gets you very early on.

maya is an entity that is also created by god. from what i remember, maya is an entity that wishes to get emancipated as well but, because this is gods GAME, he made it so that maya cant earn any naam itself. it must therefore steel from the week minded and so on.. but, one day, maya will get emancipated as well, that will be the end of kaljug, (then satjug forever from what i remember). god cannot get tainted, hence we must clense ourselves before we can unite with god. (we got tainted in the first place by temptation with maya.)

from the lord through the void came the word, then air, water... so on... ether comes in it somehere.. forgot where...

god has not 'tricked' us into anything but god tests us throught the temptation of maya leading us away from the path to god,therfore making it harder for us to unite into infinity/god, to see if we stay steadfast.

god has gave us the power of choice, this is what separates us from the animals and stops us from being beasts.

therefore, he wants to see, if we choose temptation over his light that he has installed in us. over time due to giving into temptation, people become "blind to the light". (this phrase i feel explains the thing best). this being blind to the light/themselves/god gives rise to evil.(from within the the person himself).

god is beyond all. he is the TIMELESS LORD OF THE WORLD. vah. muslims frequently say/dont understand that how god can be nirgun and sargun. (i had a debate with an imaam, and won. he was all about converting..) this nirgun and sargun virtue means that god can be formless and take form. i.e. he is in all. and he surpasses all, ALL duality. even good and bad! iv written an article about nirgun and sargun. anyway.

the maya origination is explained as per above..

the light if god is taintless. it is impossible to put a black spot on that light. the dirt from lifetimes of bad deeds have obscured that light to us. it stands in the way of enlightenment. it has been said by high up spiritual people that the dorway to heaven is thinner than an onion skin. but because of all the dirt stuck and solidified on the thin film, we find it hard to see the light.

this whole world is a wanderous play.thats it..

as stated above, after kaljug, satjug will be forever due to the etrenal guru.

hope iv answered your qz jeeo.

i hope you foward this knoledge to the sikhs that dont know it. they may just be impresed if they hear this from a hindu! :lol: .

gurfateh

[valli singh]

the 'Creation' section of Anurag Sagar by Kabir

explains it quite well.

Basically the individual soul is an emanation from God,

so the soul can be seen as being the image of God,

these monads of individual consciousness came under the sway

of mayavic illusion and willfully parted from their source.

While some of these souls stayed in the region of God as seperate entities.

Upon liberation the soul can merge into God

and 'feel what God feels',

it can also withdraw itself from God an traverse other

planes of being while still remaining absorbed in that same bliss,

this is all possible when one forsakes duality by merging in the Shabd of God

which will transport him to the region of the Lord.

Guru's Grace

[Paran-Singh]

my friend you seek knowledge that no man can give to you, the knowledge you seek must be found directly from Guru Ji, please read from www.srigranth.org and quench your thirst for knowledge by reading the Guru's Bani. Within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib you find the answers to your questions and answers to the questions you never knew existed.