Sikhi In Uk And The Failure Of The Sikh Community

[Jeevan]

Bro/sis

It is ironic that you comment on awareness of sikhi and then identify with caste.

There is no such thing as jatt sikh or ravidassi sikh. Those who claim such title are, with respect, more appropriately and generally described as Hindoos.

BuddaSingh please look at the web links below and then state again if there is no such thing as castesism in Sikhi:-

http://www.4jat.com/print/print_media_detail.asp?id=5426

http://sikh.matrimonialsindia.com/jat-sikh...non-working.htm

http://www.4jat.com/print/print_media_detail.asp?id=5426

[apnepart2]

^ what is your caste?

[kuthaman]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I have recently come to the conclusion that Sikhism is a religion which we (the Sikhs) have failed to get across to the non asian community where we live. I talk of the UK where I live.

I mean I've seen brits and europeans who haven't heard of Sikhism..they dont know the basic tenants of Sikhism..ie that the males wear long turbans and grow long hair and beards.

Too many people view Sikhs as extremist muslims. This may be laughable to some but I am serious.

A vast majority of white people look at turbans as symbols of militant islam. As a community I think we have failed to address the isue of broadcasting Sikhi to the masses..just as Islam and hinduism have.

A small minority of whites know about Sikhism (and mainly only the british because they ruled over India and knew about the Sikhs). All we hear in the media is about muslim fundamentalists blowing up buildings etc..Sikhism isn't even mentioned among the main religions of the world (Christianity, Budhism, Hinduism and Islam) and this can be evidenced in the recent complaints received at the BBC radio 4 programme. I think I saw a link to that somewhere on this website.

I always go out of my way to tell people who are interested, about Sikhism and the basic beliefs of Sikhism. However, I notice that a lot of whites are looking at Sikhs in discust because they think we are associated with militancy and associate our turbans with Islam.

We as a community haven't managed to even tell our children about the tenants of Sikhism so small surpsie that we havn't managed to get across the message of our religion to others out there.

We focus on making bigger and better Gurdowaras...we focus on our own TV stations..but why cant we spend the funding on having programmes on Sikhism so that they can be aired on mainstream TV...so that we can share our history...our Guru's sacrifices with the other faiths.

Please share your views on this.

I totally agree with you. Its a sad state. I recently got so pssed off at current leadership I deiced to take action myself. Using my knowledge of Sikhi I have began preaching and spreading the message of Sikhi using craigslist. You may laugh but it really works in terms of getting people to the side and reading about sikhi.

[buddasingh]

Jeevan, stating again as you asked:

Those identifying as “jatt-sikhs” in the links are better described as Hindoos adhering to ancient Hindoo caste principles, just like those who attach to the identity of “ravidassi-sikhs”.

Both insult and show a total disregard for sikhi and live as part of ignorant cults.

BuddaSingh please look at the web links below and then state again if there is no such thing as castesism in Sikhi:-

http://www.4jat.com/print/print_media_detail.asp?id=5426

http://sikh.matrimonialsindia.com/jat-sikh...non-working.htm

http://www.4jat.com/print/print_media_detail.asp?id=5426

[RavidassiSikh]

Ji, I couldnt agree with you more.

Is anyone inside Sikhi let alone outside of Sikhi aware of the pillars of Sikhism??

- Kirat Karo - to live an honest family life & earning by the sweat of one's brow

- Vand Chhako - to share with the community through charitable giving

- Naam Japo - continual remembrance of Waheguru & focus on his name

It's a sad reflection when people say what's Sikh or "ahhh you're Sikh: you guys like a drink or you guys <insert Punjabi stereotype here>"

Too much time wasted on in-fighting & building monuments rather than to actually spread Gurbani.

Waheguru...Waheguru...Waheguru...

Why are you calling yourself a "ravidassia" Sikh?

You've just proven his point, no matter if he's a ravidassi, a sikh or neither.

...The fact that readers are questioning my Username & not referring to my post where I have explained the three key teachings from Shri Guru Nanak JI, is an example of the problem we have in Sikhi society.

All, I have mentioned my username on a few occasions & I am happy to copy & paste my answer from another topic & elaborate...

""People from low castes who are Sikhs and have been for generations & generations are told that we are not real Sikhs because we are of Chamar or Dalit background.... But you have people saying they are Jat Sikh or Ramgarhia Sikh - when there should be no caste-ism in SIKHI. A point to note is that Guru Ravidass Ji cannot be compared with any caste or creed - he has gifted us with his teachings & life on earth as per Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. TO ME - 'Ravidassi Sikh' is a beautiful reference, taking the name of Ravidass Ji Maharaj. Why should people say we are not Sikhs OR why should we be Chamar Sikhs?? Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's Hukam was for the Khalsa to be one regardless of caste - oppression is the reason why some low-caste people prefer to be Hindu, some Ravidassia & some like me who will always stay behind the Sikh banner regardless. So in a perfect world I would be just "Sikh" - but discrimination in our Sikh society does not allow that.""

...Waheguru...Waheguru...Waheguru...

[apnepart2]

""People from low castes who are Sikhs and have been for generations & generations are told that we are not real Sikhs because we are of Chamar or Dalit background....

by whom? so are you Sikhs to prove a point to 'people' and not to 'guru'. you seem to think you are what you are because of what people think about you and not the guru. that is what you call low self esteem which gets instilled since when you are born and walk in society. another of your type, jason, put it quite plainly that you live in 'society' and not in 'sggs'. you guys would even grow tails in your backside if 'society' demanded it. no wonder you have been at the receiving end for thousands of years and will remain so unable to let go of the shackles that bind your soul and will stay on your pysche one way or another.

But you have people saying they are Jat Sikh or Ramgarhia Sikh

can you specifically point to those people in this Forum since i don't live in your society. you are doing same thing. you too identify with your caste and not your guru. so don't complain about it.

when there should be no caste-ism in SIKHI

then why the insistence on 'ravidasi sikh'? do you think guru gobind singh would approve of it?

'Ravidassi Sikh' is a beautiful reference

so is 'labrador'. have you seen how cute the dog is and obedient too. and why isn't 'chamar' a beautiful name too? it rhymes just about right. chamaar, what a beautiful name. derived from chamri, that is skin or leather. and it was there before bhagat Ravidas and you guys changed it. It is the treatment which was not beautiful, not the name. But has the treatment changed? What has changin names got you?

Why should people say we are not Sikhs OR why should we be Chamar Sikhs??

nobody said so here. only you have been screaming this since you came on this forum. and i bet calling yourself that does not get you better treatment either. you are the same person a change of name does not change it. either way you are just confiriming that you are 'chamar'.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's Hukam was for the Khalsa to be one regardless of caste

and since you are NOT Khalsa, the rule does not apply to you. right? therefore you are free to stick to being a chamar.

oppression is the reason why some low-caste people prefer to be Hindu

what oppression did you face in Britain? those chamaars who were protesting calling a ban on kirpan didn't look like they were being oppressed.

some like me who will always stay behind the Sikh banner regardless

without being a proper Sikh, just like so many.

So in a perfect world I would be just "Sikh"

and since the world is not perfect you can continue following 'Manmat' and not 'Gurmat'.

but discrimination in our Sikh society does not allow that

so is there no discrimination among Chamars? or any other place? what about your home?

[RavidassiSikh]

""People from low castes who are Sikhs and have been for generations & generations are told that we are not real Sikhs because we are of Chamar or Dalit background....

by whom? so are you Sikhs to prove a point to 'people' and not to 'guru'. you seem to think you are what you are because of what people think about you and not the guru. that is what you call low self esteem which gets instilled since when you are born and walk in society. another of your type, jason, put it quite plainly that you live in 'society' and not in 'sggs'. you guys would even grow tails in your backside if 'society' demanded it. no wonder you have been at the receiving end for thousands of years and will remain so unable to let go of the shackles that bind your soul and will stay on your pysche one way or another.

But you have people saying they are Jat Sikh or Ramgarhia Sikh

can you specifically point to those people in this Forum since i don't live in your society. you are doing same thing. you too identify with your caste and not your guru. so don't complain about it.

when there should be no caste-ism in SIKHI

then why the insistence on 'ravidasi sikh'? do you think guru gobind singh would approve of it?

'Ravidassi Sikh' is a beautiful reference

so is 'labrador'. have you seen how cute the dog is and obedient too. and why isn't 'chamar' a beautiful name too? it rhymes just about right. chamaar, what a beautiful name. derived from chamri, that is skin or leather. and it was there before bhagat Ravidas and you guys changed it. It is the treatment which was not beautiful, not the name. But has the treatment changed? What has changin names got you?

Why should people say we are not Sikhs OR why should we be Chamar Sikhs??

nobody said so here. only you have been screaming this since you came on this forum. and i bet calling yourself that does not get you better treatment either. you are the same person a change of name does not change it. either way you are just confiriming that you are 'chamar'.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's Hukam was for the Khalsa to be one regardless of caste

and since you are NOT Khalsa, the rule does not apply to you. right? therefore you are free to stick to being a chamar.

oppression is the reason why some low-caste people prefer to be Hindu

what oppression did you face in Britain? those chamaars who were protesting calling a ban on kirpan didn't look like they were being oppressed.

some like me who will always stay behind the Sikh banner regardless

without being a proper Sikh, just like so many.

So in a perfect world I would be just "Sikh"

and since the world is not perfect you can continue following 'Manmat' and not 'Gurmat'.

but discrimination in our Sikh society does not allow that

so is there no discrimination among Chamars? or any other place? what about your home?

Again 'someone', i.e. yourself, ignored my original post about the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev JI & chose to argue about my views on caste-ism creating divides. 'Ravidass JI' is not caste-ism or a caste, I could easily change my Username to 'Guru Nanak Ji's Sikh' or 'Guru Gobind's Sikh' or Kabir Ji's Sikh!!! There would be no difference & no-one would even mention it.

Also how in the world can you even compare Guru Ravidass Ji's name to that of a labrador!!!!!!!! THIS is an example of the ignorance & provocation that divides all backgrounds in Sikhi & creates divisions and silos.

I think you have also proven my point, by making offensive comments associating people from so-called low backgrounds with "low self-esteem & manmat".

A Panji asked about by Username & I responded. On the otherhand I think your post is offensive, divisive & inherently looking for an argument. I will not stoop to this level & make any further responses but I urge you to at least understand why I am disagreeing with you & leave you to decide. I wish to put my focus in positive Sikhi actions.

Waheguru...Waheguru...Waheguru...

[apnepart2]

bro i wasn't comapring bhagat ravidas with a dog !!!!!! OMG. i was comparing the term 'ravidasi sikh' with another beautiful species, if it is not human that does not make it no-worhty. Why are you comapring yourslef with a dog? sorry , i was not trying to offend you. And it is you who is clearly dividing by calling urself as ravidasi sikh, seperating yourself from all other Sikhs. Tell me why can't a jatt be called ravidasi sikh? why do you have to be born a chamaar to be called that?

'Ravidass JI' is not caste-ism or a caste,

u r right about that. but the term 'ravidasi Sikh' is pure casteism, nothing else.

THIS is an example of the ignorance & provocation that divides all backgrounds in Sikhi & creates divisions and silos.

i guess hanging on to your caste brings you closer to the ideals of guru gobind singh. You derive your identity NOT from following Guru Nanak Dev but by being a a Sikh of Chamaar background which you call 'ravidasi sikh'. You are exploiting name of Bhagat Ravidas which should not be allowed. You are using his name just as RSS used Ram's name before demolishing Babri Mosque.

I wish to put my focus in positive Sikhi actions.

i guess that would include taking amrit too.

[laala gola]

Oh dear.

Looking at the posts on this thread really has made me think that we are in a dire situation.

If we dont hold castism openly on our tongues, we dwell on it subconsciously.

In Islam caste is not predominant to the extent as in Hinduism.

In Judaism there is no dominance of caste.

People appear to have missed on the essence of the post and pay more attention to trivial things and waste their time arguing over these trivialities.

This is a prime example of why we have failed. This is just one reason..there are countless more which I've come across.

May God help us. May the Guru have mercy on us.