Dusshera

[sikhreality]

http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2010/05/dussherra-importance-in-sikhism.html

Benthi to all to listen to the beautiful katha by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji, student of Nihung Baba Karam Singh Rakba Vale [Jathedar of Damdama Sahib Patshahi 6 after Nihung Baba Mitt Singh Ji] and Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale

[Harinder_Singh]

http://sikh-reality....in-sikhism.html

Benthi to all to listen to the beautiful katha by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji, student of Nihung Baba Karam Singh Rakba Vale [Jathedar of Damdama Sahib Patshahi 6 after Nihung Baba Mitt Singh Ji] and Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale

Jwala Singh, u need to be careful as your last few posts are promoting hindu matt. U need to do vichar with some scholar like Bhai Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba before posting such stuff.

The subject of this Pauri is not Ramayana or Raam Chandar but using their example, Bhai Sahib is proving the Gurmat principle that one gets praised or condemned based on one's Karma. If we do good Karma, we would get praised and if we do bad Karma, we would get condemned and slandered. In Siri Asa kee Vaar there is a Pankiti that goes as follows:

ਜੇਹਾ ਘਾਲੇ ਘਾਲਣਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੋ ਨਾਉ ਪਚਾਰੀਐ ॥

(The kind of deed a person does, so the reputation of such person spreads)

This Pauri gives the example of Ravan and Raam who fought a battle. Ravan committed a bad act and incurred a black stain (ਕਾਲਾ ਟਿਕਾ) by taking away someone else's woman (ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਹਰਣਾ). Till this day people remember his bad deed. On the other hand Rama followed Dharma and till this day his deeds in form of Ramayana are remembered and many people treat Ramayana as a source of liberation or salvation.

This subject of this Pauri is not Rama or Ravana or Ramayana but Bhai Gurdaas jee is making the point that one's reputation depends on one's deeds.

[sikhreality]

Jwala Singh, u need to be careful as your last few posts are promoting hindu matt. U need to do vichar with some scholar like Bhai Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba before posting such stuff.

Typical response.

Did you even listen to the katha by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji?

The subject of this Pauri is not Ramayana or Raam Chandar but using their example, Bhai Sahib is proving the Gurmat principle that one gets praised or condemned based on one's Karma. If we do good Karma, we would get praised and if we do bad Karma, we would get condemned and slandered. In Siri Asa kee Vaar there is a Pankiti that goes as follows:

ਜੇਹਾ ਘਾਲੇ ਘਾਲਣਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੋ ਨਾਉ ਪਚਾਰੀਐ ॥

(The kind of deed a person does, so the reputation of such person spreads)

This Pauri gives the example of Ravan and Raam who fought a battle. Ravan committed a bad act and incurred a black stain (ਕਾਲਾ ਟਿਕਾ) by taking away someone else's woman (ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਹਰਣਾ). Till this day people remember his bad deed. On the other hand Rama followed Dharma and till this day his deeds in form of Ramayana are remembered and many people treat Ramayana as a source of liberation or salvation.

This subject of this Pauri is not Rama or Ravana or Ramayana but Bhai Gurdaas jee is making the point that one's reputation depends on one's deeds.

Interesting interpretation.

One question though, how do you translate, "Ram Chand Nirmal Purkh". Every traditional old school of thought, Sikh Sampradays, recognize or atleast understand that Ram was a Gurmukh. From Nihung Singhs, to Nirmala Sikhs, to Bhindran Taksal and other Taksals.

Like Giani Ji said, if you do not have Bharosa [faith] in Gurbani then all is lost.

Modern day people have a way of twisting and interpreting Gurbani anyway possible just to suit them, this is a tactic that has been mastered by Anti-Dasam Granth people, they twist words, meanings around very cleverly to oppose traditional Sikh thought.

[Harinder_Singh]

Jwala Singh, u need to be careful as your last few posts are promoting hindu matt. U need to do vichar with some scholar like Bhai Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba before posting such stuff.

Typical response.

Did you even listen to the katha by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji?

The subject of this Pauri is not Ramayana or Raam Chandar but using their example, Bhai Sahib is proving the Gurmat principle that one gets praised or condemned based on one's Karma. If we do good Karma, we would get praised and if we do bad Karma, we would get condemned and slandered. In Siri Asa kee Vaar there is a Pankiti that goes as follows:

ਜੇਹਾ ਘਾਲੇ ਘਾਲਣਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੋ ਨਾਉ ਪਚਾਰੀਐ ॥

(The kind of deed a person does, so the reputation of such person spreads)

This Pauri gives the example of Ravan and Raam who fought a battle. Ravan committed a bad act and incurred a black stain (ਕਾਲਾ ਟਿਕਾ) by taking away someone else's woman (ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਹਰਣਾ). Till this day people remember his bad deed. On the other hand Rama followed Dharma and till this day his deeds in form of Ramayana are remembered and many people treat Ramayana as a source of liberation or salvation.

This subject of this Pauri is not Rama or Ravana or Ramayana but Bhai Gurdaas jee is making the point that one's reputation depends on one's deeds.

Interesting interpretation.

One question though, how do you translate, "Ram Chand Nirmal Purkh". Every traditional old school of thought, Sikh Sampradays, recognize or atleast understand that Ram was a Gurmukh. From Nihung Singhs, to Nirmala Sikhs, to Bhindran Taksal and other Taksals.

Like Giani Ji said, if you do not have Bharosa [faith] in Gurbani then all is lost.

Modern day people have a way of twisting and interpreting Gurbani anyway possible just to suit them, this is a tactic that has been mastered by Anti-Dasam Granth people, they twist words, meanings around very cleverly to oppose traditional Sikh thought.

Jwala Singh, I do not want to go into the history or authenticity of present day Nihang, Nirmala Organizations. So stop using this tactic to prove your point.

http://www.sridasam....ction=Page&p=99

ਜਿਤੇ ਅਉਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥

जिते अउलीआ अमबीआ होइ बीते ॥ तितिओ काल जीता न ते काल जीते ॥

All the Prophets and saints of the past were conquered by Death (KAL), but none could conquer it (him).

ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਿਓ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਏ ॥੨੮॥

जिते राम से क्रिसन हुइ बिसन आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापिओ न ते काल घाए ॥२८॥

All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. 28.

If Ram was a Gurmukh, He would not have been destroyed by the Mighty Kaal. Basically, Ram did some good things and some not so good things and in the end had to face Dharam Rai. Regarding the tukk "raam chand nirmal purakkh", this means that due to the good action of Ram (of fighting Ravana for his wife), so many people consider him nirmal purakh, worship him and consider ramayana as a source of salvation.

If we go by your logic, then Ramayana shud be considered as a source of salvation, then what was the need of Guru Nanak Dev jee to come to this earth when Ramayana was already there. Gurbani says " gur bin ghor andhaar".

Shud present day sikhs start reading Ramayana as it can bring salvation ?????

In reality, this tukk just means that Ramayana and story of Ram is considered by holy by many people and Ram gets lots of praise in this world whereas Ravan gets bad name to this day for stealing some one else's wife.

[sikhreality]

Jwala Singh, u need to be careful as your last few posts are promoting hindu matt. U need to do vichar with some scholar like Bhai Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba before posting such stuff.

Typical response.

Did you even listen to the katha by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji?

The subject of this Pauri is not Ramayana or Raam Chandar but using their example, Bhai Sahib is proving the Gurmat principle that one gets praised or condemned based on one's Karma. If we do good Karma, we would get praised and if we do bad Karma, we would get condemned and slandered. In Siri Asa kee Vaar there is a Pankiti that goes as follows:

ਜੇਹਾ ਘਾਲੇ ਘਾਲਣਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੋ ਨਾਉ ਪਚਾਰੀਐ ॥

(The kind of deed a person does, so the reputation of such person spreads)

This Pauri gives the example of Ravan and Raam who fought a battle. Ravan committed a bad act and incurred a black stain (ਕਾਲਾ ਟਿਕਾ) by taking away someone else's woman (ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਹਰਣਾ). Till this day people remember his bad deed. On the other hand Rama followed Dharma and till this day his deeds in form of Ramayana are remembered and many people treat Ramayana as a source of liberation or salvation.

This subject of this Pauri is not Rama or Ravana or Ramayana but Bhai Gurdaas jee is making the point that one's reputation depends on one's deeds.

Interesting interpretation.

One question though, how do you translate, "Ram Chand Nirmal Purkh". Every traditional old school of thought, Sikh Sampradays, recognize or atleast understand that Ram was a Gurmukh. From Nihung Singhs, to Nirmala Sikhs, to Bhindran Taksal and other Taksals.

Like Giani Ji said, if you do not have Bharosa [faith] in Gurbani then all is lost.

Modern day people have a way of twisting and interpreting Gurbani anyway possible just to suit them, this is a tactic that has been mastered by Anti-Dasam Granth people, they twist words, meanings around very cleverly to oppose traditional Sikh thought.

Jwala Singh, I do not want to go into the history or authenticity of present day Nihang, Nirmala Organizations. So stop using this tactic to prove your point.

http://www.sridasam....ction=Page&p=99

ਜਿਤੇ ਅਉਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥

जिते अउलीआ अमबीआ होइ बीते ॥ तितिओ काल जीता न ते काल जीते ॥

All the Prophets and saints of the past were conquered by Death (KAL), but none could conquer it (him).

ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਿਓ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਏ ॥੨੮॥

जिते राम से क्रिसन हुइ बिसन आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापिओ न ते काल घाए ॥२८॥

All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. 28.

If Ram was a Gurmukh, He would not have been destroyed by the Mighty Kaal. Basically, Ram did some good things and some not so good things and in the end had to face Dharam Rai. Regarding the tukk "raam chand nirmal purakkh", this means that due to the good action of Ram (of fighting Ravana for his wife), so many people consider him nirmal purakh, worship him and consider ramayana as a source of salvation.

If we go by your logic, then Ramayana shud be considered as a source of salvation, then what was the need of Guru Nanak Dev jee to come to this earth when Ramayana was already there. Gurbani says " gur bin ghor andhaar".

Shud present day sikhs start reading Ramayana as it can bring salvation ?????

In reality, this tukk just means that Ramayana and story of Ram is considered by holy by many people and Ram gets lots of praise in this world whereas Ravan gets bad name to this day for stealing some one else's wife.

The above quotation from Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in Bachittar Natak, and is it doing Ustat of Kaal. It is showing that eventually, everything gets consumed by Kaal, and that includes all the Avatars. Everything that is Sargun saroop passes away, even Guru Nanak Dev ji till Guru Gobind Singh Ji were born and passed, because they were Sargun Saroop of Parmeshvar.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ॥

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ॥

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ॥

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ॥

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

<a class="dict" href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80" onmouseover="ddrivetip('iSarī /i Shri, a world used for respect. 2. Lakshmi. 3. manifestation of beauty, quality, praise, wealth etc.', 250)" ;="" onmouseout="hideddrivetip()">ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

Like Baba Ji said in his katha, and the previous Avatars have their place, they were for the previous yugs [ages], but in this age for us Sikhs, we focus on Guru Nanak Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj .

[singhfauja]

Like Baba Ji said in his katha, and the previous Avatars have their place, they were for the previous yugs [ages], but in this age for us Sikhs, we focus on Guru Nanak Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj .

sikhreality Ji,

That's exactly the point. They were avtaars of PREVIOUS Yugs, they are NOT avtaars NOW.

ONLY Guru Nanak-Guru-Gobind Singh Ji is the Puran Avtaar of our current yug- Kal-Yug.

Avtaars of previous Yugs have not part to play in this yug or in Sikhism.

They are part of His Creation, just like the millions and billions and trillions of other creatures He created.

Just as the rest of His creation gets destroyed so do they. Gurbani references them as examples only of good and bad.

ਤੋਮਰ ਛੰਦ ॥ (ਅਕਾਲ ਉਸਤਤ) :

ਜਿਹ ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਨ੍ਰਿਪਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਸਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥

ਕਈ ਰਾਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਰਸੂਲ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤ ਕੋ ਨ ਕਬੂਲ ॥ ੮॥੩੮॥

ਕਈ ਸਿੰਧ ਬਿੰਧ ਨਗਿੰਦ੍ਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਫਨਿੰਦ੍ਰ ॥

ਕਈ ਦੇਵ ਆਦਿ ਕੁਮਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ੯॥੩੯॥

ਕਈ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਾਰ ਬੁਹਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਬੇਦ ਅਉ ਮੁਖਚਾਰ ॥

ਕਈ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਛੱਦ੍ਰ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਕਈ ਰਾਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਅਨੂਪ ॥ ੧੦॥੪੦॥

He who created myriads of Indra Kings. He created many Brahmas and Vishnus after consideration.

He made many Ramas, Krishnas and Prophets (Mohammeds). But none is accepted (in His Court) without devotion.(8)(38)

He created numerous oceans, Bindhiachal hills and highest Himalayas mountains. He made numerous Fish and Tortoise Incarnations (of Vishnu) and many Sheshnags (snake lords).

He created numerous deities and Sanak, Sanandan etc. (sons of Brahma). He made numerous Krishnas and many Incarnations of Vishnu.(9)(39)

Many Indras (Lords of deities) sweep at His, door. Many are Vedas and Brahmas having four faces

Many are Shivas with trivial appearance. And there are many Ramas and Krishnas with incomparable complexion.(10)( 40)

[singhfauja]

Question : If there were millions of Rama created by Akal Purakh Sahib, how many Dusehraas are we to observe in a year?

Answer: Every day for a Sikh is Dusehraa, or a Christmas. These days hold no special meaning for the KHALSA. The KHALSA worships the IMMORTAL AKAL PURAKH, not mortals like Ram, Krishan and Mahesh.

[khalistan_zindabaad]

dusehra mahatam paat was done in leeds a few months ago, it take approx 4 hours i think and mainly judh bani from sri dasam granth sahib jee is recited, including jaap sahib, chandi di vaar, bachitar natak, bits of krishna avtaar etc, i cant remember the full bania read but there were several

[Harinder_Singh]

Jwala Singh, How do u interpret this tukk which is part of our daily nitnem from tav prasad svayiye

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥

The word 'jamm' is used here. If vishnu cannot escape jamma, how can the incarnations of Vishnu be called Gurmukh ?

Now, have a look at this tukk from Sri Guru Granth Sahib

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=82

gurmuKw min prgwsu hY sy ivrly kyeI kyie ]

guramukhaa man paragaas hai sae viralae kaeee kaee ||

The minds of the Gurmukhs are illuminated and enlightened; they are so very rare.

Gurmukhs are RARE people whereas Vaheguru jee has made millions of Rams.

[Harinder_Singh]

sikhreality Ji,

That's exactly the point. They were avtaars of PREVIOUS Yugs, they are NOT avtaars NOW.

ONLY Guru Nanak-Guru-Gobind Singh Ji is the Puran Avtaar of our current yug- Kal-Yug.

This is not true. Guru Nanak Dev jee is the Guru of all the 4 yuggs.

Ram and Krishan were sent to this earth to fight the evil of Ravana and Kans. Along with fighting evil, Ram and Krishan made mistakes too.

Its very wrong to compare Ram and Krishan with the Guru Avataar because Guru is ABHULL and does not committ mistakes.