Were Guru Nanak Dev Ji God Himself ?

[alias]

ma brother, im not disputing that there is a nirgun sarop. there is. and that (your bolded bit) is totally correct re your point.

you are totally correct in what you say! and your point! however there is another level..

within gurbani, nothing is fixed in that, nirgun saroop and sargun is a duality in and of it self!... god is past all duality.

if one were to read passages where guru ji says seemingly contradictory statments (such as nirgun and sargun are the same), then one will defo get confused..

in gurbani, so many opposite metaphors like paap and pun and tasty and tasteless etc come, and some just dont understand... others just leave it..

1 paap pun doe ek samaan

2 paap pun bhi sar na jaanai

3 kacha meetta eko jaan

4 kanchan loh samaan (to look on gold and sarabloh the same M:9 solrk)

5 then u got guru ji also saying >narak surag fir fir autaar< implying that even going to heaven is bad

6 and then u got guru gobind singh ji saying in jaap sahib, >ki narkang pranaas hai< and >ki narkang pranaam hai< saying even in hell god is pranaam (just like u do parnaam to sonthing i.e. simmar something). (ppl may start saying >hai? god in hell?? naa!!< etc etc.) another, P:10 >>kavan surag, kavan narak<< what is heaven and hel i.e. god is in everything.. bhoom akaas pataal rasaatal jach bhujang sabhai sir niyaavai. so even in hell, god is there. (i am trying to highlight that god is not restricted, amongst other things..i hope u get my point)

7 also hukam and benti are the only thing that exist and these are also the same thing as each other. :D

god is not restricted as per any definition.

and yes!, >ghat ghat viaapak antarjami< is the 7th pauri..!! beautiful! nand laal ji!

god is everywhere! and not limited to these definitions. these definitions are a restriction..

look, japji sabhib. akhri naam, salaaha, geet gun gaha, likhan bolan baan, sir sanjog vakhaan,>>>>>>>>but then, jin ehe likhe tis sir naahe..

this then means that yes, these are the akhar, but even the akhar will go away.

you are perfectly correct in what you say, but (hopefully!) as iv explained, there is so much more to guru..

again, ppl say kaal is death, and akaal is the one above death. but again!!!! these 2 are the same! so beautiful!

>>jin ek hi kaal, akaal sadha hai.!<< guru gobind singh ji.

lastly, the neti neti bit of the bolded bit, i dont get... such a silly translation... they translate nigam to mean vedas but what i think the real meaning is that nigam means marag (which is also another meaning of this word nigam). thus, the line means . >>net net jiha nigam uchare<< which means >which ever human, goes on the sucha marag i.e. on the hukam of god, then forever one stays with the ek roop of god< (further implications are where, because god is away from the tregun, >ek roop tihu gur te pare< {pare means away,} the you will also forever remain away from the tre gun just as god. I.E. one has re immersed into God himself.. such beauty.

so i think that that translation does no justice.. iv written a thing bout the word 'bhae' and how sikh schollars say that this meaning of the word bhae means awareness, which it just does not..

ill put it up on here...

another thing, y do u think that guru ji gives the concept of 'pati parameswar'? iv bin asking as many ppl as i can regarding this concept.. if u dont get this question it dont matter.. i just thought id asak u n c wot happns..

gurfateh

Does Not Simply Mean ‘Awareness of God’.pdf

[Only five]

nice. :rolleyes: :waheguru: :rolleyes:

i also came accross a shabad (i think) that was in guru maharaj that sed that eack achar (letter) is the rom of guru. which is.. again, real nice. (i say nice because thes no point in trying to find the right word to describe.. awsome, amazing... but naa even these words dont do justice! )

u no how u say dont bow to pictures, yes that is the case.. the picture is jus ink and stuff. but what are them ppl reely bowing to.. is not the picture.. the gurmukhs only see that ppl aare bowing to the picture when they are not - they bow to God. akaal..

It's my fault for just leaving it at, one reason why Gurmukhs say don't bow to pictures. I should have added, that those that are getting into Sikhi should avoid bowing to pictures, they will get stuck, there jeevan will get stuck, on the body form of Guru Sahib. They would have to do alot of paat to get the idea that Sri Waheguru ji is above his body form and is the formless. There is to a degree nothing wrong with bowing to pictures of the Gurus, I do it myself, but everytime have to remind myself this is the worldly form of Guru Sahib and I need, to understand Sri Waheguru ji is the formless Lord, in his ultimate form.

another thing about pictures, what do u say about charan amrit at the time of guruji then? because it can thus be said that the gur charan are going to go away. etc. i.e. a foot is flesh/ mitti. so an onlookermay question the same thing about the charan of the guru, just like people that see ppl bowing to 'pictures' question bowing to pictures.. i hope you see my point.. nirgun is nirgun. sargurn is sargun. sargun is also nirgun and nirgun is sargun also.. as a bundh, its all ek jot. its all what you see.. so the picture thing, is ok in my books premise to non moorti-like pooja..

With pictures the ability of the drawer is protrayed and not the total beauty of Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib's beauty can't be put in a picture. When Charan Amrit was taking place it was Guru Sahib himself in that form giving the Amrit. When people would just look at Guru Sahib from a distant they would be taken away by Guru Sahib presence spirtiually and beauty. They (the people of that time) had Satguru Sri Waheguru ji standing before them in the flesh (this feeling can't be described) All you can say is Sri Mool Mantar Sahib ji. Satguru spoke with the person, hugged him, gave the person personal advice, caught him by the eyes. With pictures we can't acheive this connection. But when the Sikh goes deeper into Sikhi and learns about all the history they start to develop the eyes to see the picture of Guru Sahib in the form of the formless and bow to the picture in total respect for bring us the Shabad Guru and making us there Sikhs. So it's the Gurbani the history of the Guru's that opened up the eyes of the pyare Sikh and he's bowing to the total amazement of Guru Sahib's teaching and beauty. Like Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj say, If you want to see me then look to the Khasla. In the Punj Pyare I am present, they are the Saroop of me.

someone asked my y do we put guru ji to sleep if guru ji cant get tyred.

my answer is that it is our seva.. we are to do seva thus giving us more prem. so seva and prem are sakka bros. (killing is also seva so we are also to find out how to kill in daya).. in bhai nand laal ji rehetnama, it sez there are 3 forms of satguru. nirgun, sargun and gursabad. we do seva of nirgun via naam, sargun via seva, and gursabad via the seva (sukh assan) and recitation. so guru ji doesnt need us to do anything.. but we do seva because of the bhanva and sharda etc..

I agree it's the pyaare, plus if a person does not have that pyare to understand why it happens. Then, they need to look at Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj example where he would sleep on the floor and Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj would sleep in his bed. Look at the respect and pyaare Guru Sahib gave, when he, himself is Akal Purakh.

and bout the aarti, >>kaisee aarrti hoe, bhav khandana teri aarti<< :D

im sure u understand what point i mean to make.

My whole point here was to say that people are mixing up the nirgun saroop and the saroop, Guru Sahib is in now. They say the world is doing the Aarti like it says in Sohila, but they fail to understand that this aarti is of the Nirgun Sarrop, where the world is doing it. What about Sargun Saroop of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. Who is doing the aarti of Guru Sahib? It's the Sikhs duty out of total pyaare and respect for Guru Sahib.

which shabad? ang? :happy:

I don't know off the top of my head. I will surely look for the Shabad when i have time and present it here.

[alias]

yea, reely nice posting and totally agree with you.. ppl can get stuck in sargun and not see past that. the nirgun saroop of guruji is the hardest form of guru to meditate on so sumtimes sargun is needed for the sutri!

yea. nirgun, sargun and gursabad are the three forms of guru that P:10 sez. nand laal ji rehernama.

guru is byaapak and antarjami, and is both nirgun and sargun at the same time..

aarti is of the ek jot. all, nirgun, sargun and gursabad, (and everyone else!) all rolled into 1.

bhav khandana teri aarti.

[Only five]

Nand Lal speaks :

You have told me of three forms, Master: the invisible, the visble, and the Guru's Word . The invisible form we cannot see, and the visble is the obedient Sikh. (17)

Chaupai

How can we comprehend the infinity of your invisible form? The universe is your form, you whom we call Master , and your presence mystically pervades every heart . (How then can we perceive you ?) 18

The Guru Speaks :

You are a devout Sikh , Nand Lal . Hear this divine message which I impart to you. See the Guru as visible presence in his Sikhs and first you must serve me by diligently serving them (19)

Next you must serve me by singing the divine Word , accepting it as truly a sign . He who accepts the scriture as the (Guru's) Word shall come to an understanding of (his) infinite being . (20)

And so I conclude this homily , Brother. He who reads or hears it and pays careful heed to it will find himself the object of much admiration, his spirit mystically blended in Mine .

This message of comfort and joy was delivered on the ninth day of the waxing moon in the month of Maghar, S. 1752 (4 December 1695 CE ) . Let the Guru's praises be eveywhere sung declares Nand Lal . (22)

Sikha, Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj gives us the answer on how to see the invisible Lord. Here are the two steps:

1)"See the Guru as visible presence in his Sikhs and first you must serve me by diligently serving them (19)"

2)"Next you must serve me by singing the divine Word , accepting it as truly a sign . He who accepts the scriture as the (Guru's) Word shall come to an understanding of (his) infinite being . (20)"

And this is the result of following the above two:

"And so I conclude this homily , Brother. He who reads or hears it and pays careful heed to it will find himself the object of much admiration, his spirit mystically blended in Mine ."

After a person does this, they can see the invisible Lord. Don't make too much of the word "see". In my writing it's used in a way to say realize Sri Waheguru ji.

[Koi]

I believe that Guru Ji taught us the path for God, but Guru Nanak Dev Ji weren't God because the Mool Mantar clearly defines that God can not be in any form. Yes we can say that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had God's Jot but since God is formless and cannot be inside a mother's womb, then Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj weren't God. The gurbani tuk that was presented can be interpreted in different ways. My interpretation is, that God is our teacher or Guru and there is no differenct between God and a spirtitual teacher, but that does not mean that Guru Nanak Dev Ji were God. I know many people will disagree but its up to everyone's own interpretations and beliefs.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji had the same Jot of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but Guru Ji states; "

"Those who call me God, will fall into the deep pit of hell.

Regard me as one of his slaves and have no doubt whatever about it. I am a servant of the Supreme Being; and have come to behold the wonderful drama of life." - Guru Gobind Singh Ji

Guru Gobind Singh Ji also write that God ordered Guru Sahib to go down to earth in his previous Janam, when Guru Sahib was Dusht Daman.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

"If by calling Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji 'Waheguru' himself, one has to go to hell, then I am ready to go to hell" (Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj)

[Koi]

"Guru Gobiind Gobind Guru Hai Nanak Bhed Na Paaee"

Guru is God, God is the Guru

"Kabeer Gur Gobind Dou Kharre, Ka Ke Laago Paai

Balihari Gur Aapne, Jin Gobind Deo Bataai" (Salok NOT of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but still relevant)

My Guru and GOd are both standing in front of me, whom shall I bow down to first?

I am a sacrifice to my GURU, who showed me the way to God.

[VanHelsingh]

If Guru Gobind Singh Ji has clearly stated that those who call him God will go to hell, then I think I'll err on the side of caution.

To those taking quotes from other (admittedly highly respected and venerable) sources to DISSPROVE what Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself clearly said??!? Have a look at yourself! If somebody did something similar to make a point about something you disagreed on, you'd be up in arms. You can't have it both ways.

[alias]

If Guru Gobind Singh Ji has clearly stated that those who call him God will go to hell, then I think I'll err on the side of caution.

To those taking quotes from other (admittedly highly respected and venerable) sources to DISSPROVE what Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself clearly said??!? Have a look at yourself! If somebody did something similar to make a point about something you disagreed on, you'd be up in arms. You can't have it both ways.

didnt u read my post about the wrong translaion??! of this >call me god, go to hell< thing??

..!:wacko:

[VanHelsingh]

didnt u read my post about the wrong translaion??! of this >call me god, go to hell< thing??

..!:wacko:

Instead of posting 'amusing' emoticons, why don't you explain what you mean?

EDIT: Apologies as I've just read your posts above, but I'm sorry but you seem to be coming up with a lot of unsupported theories off your own back. Can I ask what authority you have to make such bold statements about what scholars and other learned people have stated, and what makes your definitions the one's that I should be trusting?

[alias]

Instead of posting 'amusing' emoticons, why don't you explain what you mean?

EDIT: Apologies as I've just read your posts above, but I'm sorry but you seem to be coming up with a lot of unsupported theories off your own back. Can I ask what authority you have to make such bold statements about what scholars and other learned people have stated, and what makes your definitions the one's that I should be trusting?

all for the amusment and happiness of the sangat.:rolleyes:

its not unsupported. its standard gurbani grammer - exactly what learned schollars should be using. the word hum is bahu bachan. this thereofre means guruji is not talking about themselves. but saying those that call themselves.. i do admit, i have a problem with 0-rated translations that distort the meanings of gurbani.

these, i reiterate, are not 'my' definitions. this is not personal to me (well it is but my point is..). that anyone can see it. its plainly what guruji is saying.. just like some ppl readthe line, >anand karhu mil sundar naari< and see >anand karhu< meaning take the bliss, and >mil sundar nari< meet with the beautiful nari aka ladies. ppl like this, (<--) distort the meaning of gurbani. what nari (in this context) is reffering to is humanity. we are all wives of god. those that dont understand this, will translate this very wrongly. just as other translations that 'schollars' have made.. such as the word 'dara' and 'bigam' and 'bhae' and other such words.

gurbani says, dar marau meaning >in the midst of death< but the schollars hide this true meaning. just read sahib singh's teeka. i have found (2 so far i think) descrepencies in it.. there is one, where he makes a statment, but then further explains the shabad, and contradicts his own statments, and does not explain it, implying that he as a schollar does not know everything. (this was regarding the meaning of 'ghar').

guru ji accepted the praise as hak hak aagaha while they were in pure akaaal roop form.

thus, to say guruji will send all those that call guru ji guruji/god will go to hell, is just totally wrong... this just occured to me, guru gobind singh ji says paatshahi 10. the word paatshaha means god. its another name of god. like bharam and gobind and madhav etc etc.. endless.

bak in the day (and now obviously), guruji uses words like 'hau' the plural of this word is 'hum'. its basic gurbani grammer. aka viakaran.

again, these are not my definitions. however i can only say what i see. as can any other human.

i hope that u se that what i type is not 'not supported', but that is based on gurbani. else, u had better strike me down!!! (but not too hard.. am only naram!! )

which bits did u think were not supported?? so i no which bits seem made up..

thanks jeo

:ph34r: