Were Guru Nanak Dev Ji God Himself ?

[alias]

".... then I am ready to go to hell" (Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj)

mere jeea! mere veera!!!! mere soor-beera!!!!

u will be fighting with me on ur way to hell to get their first before me!!

WE CAN FIGHT THE ARMY OF HELL TOGETHER!!! MUHAHAHA!!!!

jai jai-kaar chadaavae!!!!!!! gajavo jaikaare!!!!!!!!! sat sri akaal ji bhabkaav jaikaare!!!!!

[VanHelsingh]

@ Alias - Okay, thank-you. I was preparing a long speech about how people are distorting scriptures but I understand (some) of your points now! Yes, the points you have made DO make sense such as when you refer to 'naari' as humanity rather than the literal meaning of 'woman' or 'wife'. It IS beautiful how poetic some (if not all) lines read.

You should've been as clear as your last post, brother!

But why don't these learned scholars correct themselves or even clarify their work to prevent confusion? Surely scriptures should not be contradictory as they are being portrayed by some learned scholars? (Note the scriptures are not contradictory, but (some) translations have made them appear to be so).

[alias]

ok.. am soz.. am just a nar.

gurbani has seemingly contradictory ststments like the ones everyone knows bout, nirgun sargun etc.. but also as i sez b4, paap and pun.. etc...

o another in japji sahib, ppl may say that these 2 bita are contradictory...

1. hukami utam neech

ans 2, naanak, utam neech na koi.

these are seemingly contradictory.. there are so many... but the thing is that these seemingly contradictory statments are not contradictory at all..

another,

guru ji sez familly is cursed, another, family is best.

another, do sanyaas, another dont do sanyaas..

these are not contradictory, but are correct in their own domain i.e. c what is said after and what guruji is talking bout...

then one finds that there is nothing contradictory bout these.. only that we were dum in not understanding guruji

:lol:

[sall]

WJKK WJKF

Gurbani and SGGS are NOT contradictory at all, it's us and our interpetation that is the

biggest issue.We are so quick to jump to SGGS , without taking into account historical

sakhis etc. For example sixth Nanak Guru Hargobind Singh Jee maharaj what was their

hukham to Baba Atul Jee who went had gone against Akal purkh's hukam of bringing

back his friend alive from death.Guru Jee instructed his own son that had gone

against the will of the lord either your friend stays or you have to go.Baba Atul

Jee as we know left this world for his friend to stay.In Baba Atul's memory there is a bunga in

Amritsar. What do we learn from this sakkhi on who is God and Guru Jee??

There are many historical instances as such.

[Only five]

WJKK WJKF

Gurbani and SGGS are NOT contradictory at all, it's us and our interpetation that is the

biggest issue.We are so quick to jump to SGGS , without taking into account historical

sakhis etc. For example sixth Nanak Guru Hargobind Singh Jee maharaj what was their

hukham to Baba Atul Jee who went had gone against Akal purkh's hukam of bringing

back his friend alive from death.Guru Jee instructed his own son that had gone

against the will of the lord either your friend stays or you have to go.Baba Atul

Jee as we know left this world for his friend to stay.In Baba Atul's memory there is a bunga in

Amritsar. What do we learn from this sakkhi on who is God and Guru Jee??

There are many historical instances as such.

Tell us how the above Sakhi says that Sri Guru ji is not Sri Waheguru ji? If Guru Sahib is not Sri Waheguru ji then who is Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib ji Maharaj to say that his son has to make a decision on who stays, what happened to treating all of humanity has one? This is going against Akal Purakh because only Akal can instruct on decisions like life and death. If you say Guru Sahib is not Sri Waheguru ji then the Sakhi does not make sense. Also take into account that Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj cut the heads off of the Punj Pyare and then brought them back out of the tent with all parts as one. Guru Sahib said i want heads and thats what he got and did. According to your understanding this did not happen or Guru Sahib is going against Akal Purakh.

In your Sakhi you do not present why Baba Atul brought back his friend to life. I believe the reason behind what he did is very important and is the key to why it was wrong. Baba Atul brought back his friend because he really missed him. Baba Atul was attached to his friend and this means to worldy relationships. Using his shakti, his friend was brought back. But then Baba Atul on the instructions of the Guru understood his grave mistake and out of love of Guru Sahib, not for his father( because Guru Sahih does not favor anyone), but Guru Sahib, he humbly bowed and choose the life Guru Sahib gave him to be taken away. When Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj cut the heads off the Punj Pyare, it was not for show or for miracles or any worldy attachments. He simply said to the sangat i need heads and he fullfilled that order.

Please present here the other historical instance that you believe, says Sri Guru ji is not Sri Waheguru ji. We can discuss them here.

[sall]

WJKK WJKF

only five, I haven't said anywhere that Guru is not Waheguru, just presented

it differently apologies for confusion. I'm fully aware of what you say about Guru Gobind Singh Ji and

infact I beleive there was NO tent either, since when and where else has

Guru Sahiban ever did anything in hiding?? However that is another discussion

point.

Your points are vaild.

[5abiSingh]

No, Guru Nanak Sahib were not Parmatma (God) but one with God. There is a difference between that.

Guru Sahib howhever knew The Truth since their birth. They uttered Bani since the age of 5. Whereas others such as Bhagat Ravidas, Bhagat Naamdev, Bhagat Jaidev, Bhagat Kabir, etc had to do Khoj to find Waheguru (God). This shows Guru Nanak Sahib were specially sent by God.

Some Tuks from Bani to back up the above:

Hao Dhadhi Bekaar Karai Laiyaa

Raat Dihai Kai Vaar Darahu Furmaiyaa

Dhadhi Sachai Mehal Khasam Bulaia

Sachi Sifat Salaah Kapra Paiyaa

Sacha Amrit Naam Bhojan Aiyaa

Gurmati Khadha Raaj Tin Sukh Paiyaa

Dhadhi Kare Pasao Sabad Vajaiyaa

Nanak Sach Salahi Puraa Paiyaa

I was a minstrel, out of work, when the Lord took me into His service. To sing His Praises day and night, He gave me His Order, right from the start. My Lord and Master has summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence. He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory. The Ambrosial Nectar of the True Name has become my food. Those who follow the Guru's Teachings, who eat this food and are satisfied, find peace. His minstrel spreads His Glory, singing and vibrating the Word of His Shabad. O Nanak, praising the True Lord, I have obtained His Perfection.

(M:1, 150, GGS)

Besides Guru Sahib were in direct contact with God - JAISI MEH AVI KHASAM KI BANI, TAISRA KARE GYAN VE LALO. (O Lalo, I narrate to you Bani the way it comes to me from God)

WJKK WJKF

[Only five]

No, Guru Nanak Sahib were not Parmatma (God) but one with God. There is a difference between that.

What is the difference? And if there is a difference what is Guru Sahib limited too? I believe you are too focused on the physical and have not focused on understanding the physical is a medium and not the formless lord in his perfect ultimate form.

Guru Sahib howhever knew The Truth since their birth. They uttered Bani since the age of 5. Whereas others such as Bhagat Ravidas, Bhagat Naamdev, Bhagat Jaidev, Bhagat Kabir, etc had to do Khoj to find Waheguru (God). This shows Guru Nanak Sahib were specially sent by God.

What do you mean they knew the truth? Also what was born and what died? Okay tell us what was exactly sent of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj, when the Shabad Guru was already on earth. The body of Guru Sahib was a medium used to tell humanity, who has limited abilities, about Sri Waheguru ji. Also can you explain why in Sri Mool Mantar Sahib ji that Guru Sahib say, By Guru Grace.

Some Tuks from Bani to back up the above:

Hao Dhadhi Bekaar Karai Laiyaa

Raat Dihai Kai Vaar Darahu Furmaiyaa

Dhadhi Sachai Mehal Khasam Bulaia

Sachi Sifat Salaah Kapra Paiyaa

Sacha Amrit Naam Bhojan Aiyaa

Gurmati Khadha Raaj Tin Sukh Paiyaa

Dhadhi Kare Pasao Sabad Vajaiyaa

Nanak Sach Salahi Puraa Paiyaa

I was a minstrel, out of work, when the Lord took me into His service. To sing His Praises day and night, He gave me His Order, right from the start. My Lord and Master has summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence. He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory. The Ambrosial Nectar of the True Name has become my food. Those who follow the Guru's Teachings, who eat this food and are satisfied, find peace. His minstrel spreads His Glory, singing and vibrating the Word of His Shabad. O Nanak, praising the True Lord, I have obtained His Perfection.

(M:1, 150, GGS)

In the above Shabad is it possible that Guru Sahib is refering to the minstrel as a part of the a humans's body or the body itself. That Satguru is thanking Sri Waheguru ji for taking up this form. In the Shabad, it gives us the answer that right from the start Sri Waheguru ji dressed the medium with the true praise.

Before you make up your mind, listen to the Shabads where, Shabad Guru is directly saying Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj took the form as the fifth Guru, Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj.

This Shabad is by Bhatt Sathaa & Balvand in Raag Raamkalee on Pannaa 968

cwry jwgy chu jugI pMcwiexu Awpy hoAw ]

chaarae jaagae chahu jugee pa(n)chaaein aapae hoaa ||

The four Gurus enlightened the four ages; the Lord Himself assumed the fifth form.

AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ]

aapeenhai aap saajioun aapae hee thha(n)mih khaloaa ||

He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

Awpy ptI klm Awip Awip ilKxhwrw hoAw ]

aapae pattee kalam aap aap likhanehaaraa hoaa ||

He Himself is the paper, He Himself is the pen, and He Himself is the writer.

sB aumiq Awvx jwvxI Awpy hI nvw inroAw ]

sabh oumath aavan jaavanee aapae hee navaa niroaa ||

All His followers come and go; He alone is fresh and new.

qKiq bYTw Arjn gurU siqgur kw iKvY cMdoAw ]

thakhath bait(h)aa arajan guroo sathigur kaa khivai cha(n)dhoaa ||

Guru Arjun sits on the throne; the royal canopy waves over the True Guru.

augvxhu qY AwQvxhu chu ckI kIAnu loAw ]

ougavanahu thai aathhavanahu chahu chakee keean loaa ||

From east to west, He illuminates the four directions.

ijn@I gurU n syivE mnmuKw pieAw moAw ]

jinhee guroo n saeviou manamukhaa paeiaa moaa ||

Those self-willed manmukhs who do not serve the Guru die in shame.

dUxI cauxI krwmwiq scy kw scw FoAw ]

dhoonee chounee karaamaath sachae kaa sachaa dtoaa ||

Your miracles increase two-fold, even four-fold; this is the True Lord's true blessing.

cwry jwgy chu jugI pMcwiexu Awpy hoAw ]8]1]

chaarae jaagae chahu jugee pa(n)chaaein aapae hoaa ||8||1||

The four Gurus enlightened the four ages; the Lord Himself assumed the fifth form. ||8||1||

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Gond on Pannaa 864

goNf mhlw 5 ]

go(n)add mehalaa 5 ||

Gond, Fifth Mehla:

guru myrI pUjw guru goibMdu ]

gur maeree poojaa gur gobi(n)dh ||

I worship and adore my Guru; the Guru is the Lord of the Universe.

guru myrw pwrbRhmu guru BgvMqu ]

gur maeraa paarabreham gur bhagava(n)th ||

My Guru is the Supreme Lord God; the Guru is the Lord God.

guru myrw dyau AlK AByau ]

gur maeraa dhaeo alakh abhaeo ||

My Guru is divine, invisible and mysterious.

srb pUj crn gur syau ]1]

sarab pooj charan gur saeo ||1||

I serve at the Guru's feet, which are worshipped by all. ||1||

gur ibnu Avru nwhI mY Qwau ]

gur bin avar naahee mai thhaao ||

Without the Guru, I have no other place at all.

Anidnu jpau gurU gur nwau ]1] rhwau ]

anadhin japo guroo gur naao ||1|| rehaao ||

Night and day, I chant the Name of Guru, Guru. ||1||Pause||

guru myrw igAwnu guru irdY iDAwnu ]

gur maeraa giaan gur ridhai dhhiaan ||

The Guru is my spiritual wisdom, the Guru is the meditation within my heart.

guru gopwlu purKu Bgvwnu ]

gur gopaal purakh bhagavaan ||

The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Primal Being, the Lord God.

gur kI srix rhau kr joir ]

gur kee saran reho kar jor ||

With my palms pressed together, I remain in the Guru's Sanctuary.

gurU ibnw mY nwhI horu ]2]

guroo binaa mai naahee hor ||2||

Without the Guru, I have no other at all. ||2||

guru boihQu qwry Bv pwir ]

gur bohithh thaarae bhav paar ||

The Guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean.

gur syvw jm qy Cutkwir ]

gur saevaa jam thae shhuttakaar ||

Serving the Guru, one is released from the Messenger of Death.

AMDkwr mih gur mMqRü aujwrw ]

a(n)dhhakaar mehi gur ma(n)thra oujaaraa ||

In the darkness, the Guru's Mantra shines forth.

gur kY sMig sgl insqwrw ]3]

gur kai sa(n)g sagal nisathaaraa ||3||

With the Guru, all are saved. ||3||

guru pUrw pweIAY vfBwgI ]

gur pooraa paaeeai vaddabhaagee ||

The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune.

gur kI syvw dUKu n lwgI ]

gur kee saevaa dhookh n laagee ||

Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone.

gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ]

gur kaa sabadh n maettai koe ||

No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

guru nwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9]

gur naanak naanak har soe ||4||7||9||

Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

Besides Guru Sahib were in direct contact with God - JAISI MEH AVI KHASAM KI BANI, TAISRA KARE GYAN VE LALO. (O Lalo, I narrate to you Bani the way it comes to me from God)

WJKK WJKF

Can you provide the ang for this Bani

[5abiSingh]

You yourself agree that GurBani is Nirankaar (God). Guru Nanak Sahib was a medium to utter Gurbani - they weren't God themselves.

I feel something is not correct in those translations - since the very mool mantar you quote states Ajooni. And the same Guru Arjan Sahib says So Mukh Jalo Jith Kahe Thakur Joni.

Then Gurbani from SGGS (which you say is Nirankaar) also says Satgur Mera Sada Sada, Na Avey, Na Jaaey.

[sall]

WJKK WJKF

Guys,

Both valid points of argument, and before we try to fine tune and find

the utmost true answer, lets get our own bearings correct. If the Guru Jees

are God- great , if they are the knower of God or medium -- great.

To mankind they were super human beings , the ultimate, the sacrfice

is nowhere to be seen, for us mere keree mortals , vishwaas ghaatis

to find the most true and correct answer here it would be as they say

in panjabi "kehtheee raaam raaam tee kethee teeehan teehan". I've come to a conclustion -Let's

try and accept they were Great and follow an iota of their contribution

in their footsteps would lead to successful life.-- period