Peaceful Rally At Ramgharia Sikh Temple Birmingham

[JalandharSher]

There is no denying that we are all overlaid in some form of hypocrisy but your attack feels more like a blanket condemnation. You have just made generalisations based on your own naive resentments towards regards Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, Gurmat Maryada, Akal Takht, Castes etc and dressed it up as an "evaluation" of the Panth.

Brother, please share your ucha sucha jeevan with us? How is your amrit vela going nowadays? Any problems with any arth of Gurbani? How's your santhiya going? How's your shaster training going?

Please evidence how my comment is a "blanket condemnation" when you are providing no evidence to the contrary??? Where have I made any generalisations about the Gurmat Maryada, Akal Takht or Caste??? I have provided factual discussion for debate, as opposed to your collective idiotic unsubstantiated ramblings.............and anything in my post that you deem idiotic, I can assure you is based as sarcasm based on an equal logic to your twisted ideas of faith for illustration purposes................

[JalandharSher]

JalandharSher,

I’m only going to pick out a few of your points.

Guru Gobind Singh Jee writes in Shaster Naam Mala…”As Kripan Khando Kharag Tupac Tubar Ar Teer, Saif Sarohee Saihthee, Yehai Hamre Peer”

Guru Jee lists a few shasters that he is a sacrifice to in it. I ask, what does “Tupac” mean? It means Gun, this indicates Guru Jee used guns on the battle field himself...else why would he praise the gun?

Also “Teero Tufango bado ramjango, Tamak Taar Aneear Kamand Korarar, Panj Shaster Parvaan”..here Guru Gobind Singh Jee refers to the panj shashter a tyaar bar tyar Khalsa should have in battle as a minimum. What is Tufango? It’s a rifle.

Now JalandharSher, are you going to tell me that you know more than Guru Gobind Singh Jee and can tell Guru Jee that he was wrong to use the gun or rifle?

According to the points listed above...there is no objection what so ever to use a gun/rifle to protect oneself or protect others according to Gurmat!

Regarding Sant Jarnail Singh, you are entitled to your opinion but the panth has accepted Sant Jarnail Singh as the Greatest Sikh of the 20th Century and up until now, no panthic jathebandi has challenged that. Also, Sri Darbar Sahib Museums contain paintings of Sant Jarnail Singh. If you have an objection with this all, then as a Sikh you have every right to take it up with Sri Akhaal Takht Sahib or are you just all talk?!?

Ok, so a partial evidence based response, and I respect you for that Ksingh, but whilst you say "the panth has accepted Sant Jarnail Singh as the Greatest Sikh of the 20th Century and up until now, no panthic jathebandi has challenged that" - Are you sure????? Moreso than Shaheed udham Singh? Moreso than Shaheed Bhagat singh? How many innocent people's death did they cause?? How many holy gurdwaras di they turn into battlegrounds??

Shall I take it up with the Shiromani prabandhak committee? The one that Jagir Kaur is a member of? The lady that decided that its ok to be religious and kill her own daughter at the same time? Sure, I will give her a call, and get her supreme insight on the path of a righteous sikh.

[JalandharSher]

Regarding Sant Jarnail Singh, you are entitled to your opinion but the panth has accepted Sant Jarnail Singh as the Greatest Sikh of the 20th Century and up until now, no panthic jathebandi has challenged that.

Are you sure?? I mean really sure? Are you sure that the relatives of those innocents that were in the harminder sahib complex on the day that it was turned into a seige by its own followers with their relatives martyred would agree??? I f you think so, then you are an insult to the sikh religion in my view.

[JalandharSher]

I only got as far as the Vishkarma bit. Sounds like you are really upset.

I have seen with my own eyes cigarette buds in the car park and all around the building at Leeds Ramgharia. This is within the boundary of the Gurdwara. Evidence? Why don't you just take a drive up there and have a look.

I have seen with my own eyes a picture of Vishkarma in Woolwich Ramgharia.

Do i need to read the rest of the post?

Jalandharsher i would suggest you make your way back into your kennel and stay there.

If only you knew the importance of the Khalsa Panth to this world. Maybe you should take a look at your own Jeevan before you start to cuss Sants.

Sure I can drive up to Leeds Ramgahria and have a look, but I could also make wild unsubstantiated claims about singh sabha gurdwara nairobi, and invite you to fly on over and have a look. No pictures? If you were so in shock you couldnt evidence it? And how do you know that the butts had anything to do with the hall? How do you know these werent flicked on by people walking past? And how does the gurdwara control this?

Speaking of kennels, you ignorant imbecile, I suggest you make your kennel welcome to all the other fools who share such a low level of intelligence as yourself.

[JalandharSher]

Jalandhar Sher, there are many points in your post but time restricts me to this quote only. I am sure that you havent read Aad Guru either as you have said above that langar is all about sitting at the same level, so it can be on the floor or tables. Eating at a equal level is only part of langar. Sitting on the floor is a sign of humility, and all the Guru's even though they were kings sat on the floor to take langar. Akbar took langar on the floor in our Gurus house.

Now if you take everyone being at a certain level as being the measure for pangat, why not do it in sangat, and raise Guru Ji's palki by 2 feet and have everyone sit on chairs in the Darbar? We will all being sitting at equal level on chairs and Guru Ji will be sitting at a higher level wont we?

Not being written in Guru Granth Sahib has no bearing on it, as there were Guru's who did not add to Gurbani, so if you say that 6th Guru did not write Gurbani should we abandon miri piri? Of course not.

Guru taught Sikhs to be humble always, and your post is quite full of ignorance and a little stupidity as well.

I would like to know how you know that only Dal roti was used in langar during Guru Ji's times? I know and you know that you dont because you havent read Aad Guru.

Ok, so this post I will treat with some respect, based on the fact that it is based on a rational argument, rather than caste bias or shocking ignorance based on the use of words such as "kennels".

That said, you have no idea what I have read, and a wild assumption to the contrary is pretty ignorant. So what you are saying is that even if it is not in SGGS, it is the interpretation that is "known". But what makes you think that YOUR interpretation is more correct rather than anyone else's? And what makes you more knowledgeable? Maharaja Ranjit singh had a number of wives, some of whom were not even sikh, and he built mandhirs, is this beadbi? Was he a blasphemous sikh? Was he not something for the sikh religion to be proud of? If not, why not? If so, this is contrary to your logic.

Akbar took langar on the floor in guru's house - correct. But what was the teaching of guru nanak behind it? It was that no matter who, all people taking langar will be at an equal level. Spin it how you want, that is what Aad Guru teaches.

"Guru taught Sikhs to be humble always, and your post is quite full of ignorance and a little stupidity as well. " Again, please evidence which part is ignorant or stupid, not interested in your ego or opinion, but evidence to support that ridiculous argument.

[JalandharSher]

"I have seen with my own eyes a picture of Vishkarma in Woolwich Ramgharia."

If you would be so kind as to post a photo of this, in your guru ka seva, we might be able to take this seriously.....................................

until hen I can only assume that these are delusions based on the lack of oxygen available in YOUR kennel...............

[GurSa Singh]

Unlike Jalandersher "who is not Ramgharia", I was born into families you openly promoted what I would term"Ramghariaism".

It's a common ethos about Baba Vishkarma that's propagated in many families that classify themselves as "Ramgharia". See this link on a very Ramgharia website http://www.ramgarhiakom.com/com/vishav_main.html

Many Ramgharia Gurdwaras do not discourage the worship of Baba Vishkarma and I witnessed Ramgharia Coventry around 7 years ago do a Gurdwara programme to celebrate Vishkarama Day (around diwali) which ironically fell on the same day as Baba Deep Singh's Shaheedi Purb. Sadly there was no remembrance of Mahan Baba Deep Singh on the day.

Reference to Nairobi (as per Jalendersher's previous posting), Ramgharia Gurdwara Pangani used to celebrate Vishkaram Diwas, certainly did in 1989 when I was in Nairobi.

Regarding Jalandershers references to Santji being the blame for the Genocide that the Indian Army/ Govt/Punjab Police carried out on civilians is just basede on the prejudices and theories that are pushed around in some pro-Congress/Ramgharia circles. I certainly grew up on those theories until I spent time and interacted with Mahapurshs and Gursikhs who gave me more Gian than the pardaan at the Ramgharia Gurdwara I grew up in did.

It's a sad fact some of Ramgharia Gurdwaras today promote meat and alcohol in halls run and governed by the Gurdwara Committee. They even call them Ramgharia Halls. It's something even you Jalendersher cannot deny. If you want proof ring up the committee offices of Leeds, Coventry, Woolwich, Small Heath and book the hall for a party.

[K Singh 82]

Shall I take it up with the Shiromani prabandhak committee? The one that Jagir Kaur is a member of? The lady that decided that its ok to be religious and kill her own daughter at the same time? Sure, I will give her a call, and get her supreme insight on the path of a righteous sikh.

Bhagat Singh is a douta of my village ie his mum was from my village and i asure u that no-one is more proud of Bhagat Singh than the people of my village, particularly my family....every year a Sri Akhand Paath Sahib is done in hounour of his Kurbani by my village in UK. While i respect Shaheed Bhagat Singh very much, but for me and my family...Sant Jarnail Singh was a Grusikh...no he is not a Guru but he was a chardikala, rehitvaan, abhiyaasi, naam rasia Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Are you sure?? I mean really sure? Are you sure that the relatives of those innocents that were in the harminder sahib complex on the day that it was turned into a seige by its own followers with their relatives martyred would agree??? I f you think so, then you are an insult to the sikh religion in my view.

The only murderers of those innocent Sikhs are your masters, the Indian government. Tell me why is it that when the hundrends of Sikhs in the Indian army who came to "free" Sri Harmandir Sahib (as they were falsely told), actually ended up turning on the army themselves after they saw the loot, murder and rape of innocents people taking place by the very same Indian Army!

Dhan Guru, Dhan Hai Guru De Pyare

[JalandharSher]

Bhagat Singh is a douta of my village ie his mum was from my village and i asure u that no-one is more proud of Bhagat Singh than the people of my village, particularly my family....every year a Sri Akhand Paath Sahib is done in hounour of his Kurbani by my village in UK. While i respect Shaheed Bhagat Singh very much, but for me and my family...Sant Jarnail Singh was a Grusikh...no he is not a Guru but he was a chardikala, rehitvaan, abhiyaasi, naam rasia Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Good, at least we have established that. So photos of him along side real gurus in the gurdwara?? meaning??

The only murderers of those innocent Sikhs are your masters, the Indian government. Tell me why is it that when the hundrends of Sikhs in the Indian army who came to "free" Sri Harmandir Sahib (as they were falsely told), actually ended up turning on the army themselves after they saw the loot, murder and rape of innocents people taking place by the very same Indian Army!

I am not for one moment denying that the suffering of these innocent people was inflicted by the indian army, however, if he was so brave and so supreme, why hide in the gurdwara? Why not go openly in the streets and fight his "suva lakh"?

[JalandharSher]

Regarding Jalandersher’s references to Santji being the blame for the Genocide that the Indian Army/ Govt/Punjab Police carried out on civilians is just basede on the prejudices and theories that are pushed around in some pro-Congress/Ramgharia circles. I certainly grew up on those theories until I spent time and interacted with Mahapurshs and Gursikhs who gave me more Gian than the pardaan at the Ramgharia Gurdwara I grew up in did.

My opinions are not based on prejudices, as i have no need for any. My opinions are based on facts. Historical facts. Did he use the holiest place for sikhs as a military garrison? Yes. Did that directly result in the slaughter of hundreds who had done nothing wrong but to go the gurswara on a gurpbrub? yes. Where is the prejudice here?

It's a sad fact some of Ramgharia Gurdwaras today promote meat and alcohol in halls run and governed by the Gurdwara Committee. They even call them Ramgharia Halls. It's something even you Jalendersher cannot deny. If you want proof ring up the committee offices of Leeds, Coventry, Woolwich, Small Heath and book the hall for a party.

How come we are not talking about TOBACCO here too? Like some other imbeciles here tried to imply earlier that this is allowed by gurdwaras too? I am not advocating the serving of meat and alcohol. Lets be clear. Its your collective basis for debate that disgusts me. Your argument being that it happens because they are Ramgharia. And how about you? Are you vegetarian? Tee total? And you talk of heavy drinking meat events after weddings in the gurdwara - who has the most raucous events i.e. booze flowing, majority meat lucnhes, followed by a couple of fights int he car park? Jatts I think you will find. and YOU cannot deny that. Smacks of ignorance and hypocrisy.