Whats Wrong With Muslims In Uk

[Mehtab Singh]

West London Singh jee, very informative post!

Thanks for expressing yourself!

[West London Singh]

Are the Sikhs in US/Canada more aggressive than their brothers and sisters in UK? Is that why they don't dare to mess with us here but don't spare us in UK? Please don't take it personally or offensively, just trying to get to the root of the problem with each post.

I just answered that question in the post you just read before asking your question. I honestly feel I just wasted 10 minutes of my time.

btw.....my pooah ji lives in canada and I've got a massi ji in northern california....I know the areas well. My elderly relatives in canada have had kids throwing drinks at them whilst whizzing past in their cars and just how many Sikhs need to be murdered in the USA for being a sikh before you stop imagining that 'they' "don't dare mess with us" ?

[VanHelsingh]

This is what I was trying to figure out. So its the general local populations and thereby the governments that are unable to handle the issue. In a way it makes sense. USA and Canada are lands where besides Native Indians all the others pretty much are immigrants. That isn't the case in UK as the aborigines are whites themselves, and so if they try to propagate their identity they are seen as "racists" possibly, so they let non-white immigrants "do their thing"? Correct me if I am wrong. Here in North America on the other hand, every community can be proud of their ethnic identities and foster inter-cultural harmony.

Yes, that is - to me - the overriding factor in this particular aspect of the situation. Of course like I've said before, the situation is a lot more detailed and complicated. But yes I agree, for many years society (including the media, the press, etc) was hamstrung by this almost suffocating sense of political correctness which prevented people from expressing their true opinions in-case they were labelled as racist or intolerant. But as I said, with the advent of Islamic extremism - in terms of England when the UK itself was targetted by terrorists on the 7th of July - the previously silenced voices suddenly felt they could speak up without fear of recriminations of accusations of intolerance because, they could claim, they were speaking for the millions of brow-beaten English who had been silenced by the ruling classes and their attempts at manufacturing a multi-cultural society.

So there began this shift where almost casual discrimination (that is admittedly very subtle so that it doesn't cross the line into out-and-out racism) is gradually beginning to be accepted by the mainstream (or the easily influenced within the mainstream), and anyone that dare refutes these insidious moves by the right is immediately labelled as anti-English, and thus has no place in this country in their opinion.

I've found in the past 5 years or so the white population (egged on by the gradually increasing voice of the right-wing media exemplified by various right-wing social and political commentators like Nick Ferrari, Jon Gaunt, Richard Littlejohn) has begun to demand that immigrants abandon, or at least suppress, their own cultures and adopt the British way of life whatever that is. Only then do they feel that immigrants will not pose any threat to their country or their English way of life. IMO Its a wholly unreasonable demand because it doesn't cater to those who don't wish to cause any rucktions amongst the population of their adopted country whilst not wishing to relinquish their religious or cultural beliefs.

Now coming to their scripture. Having grown up all my life in the Middle East, I can say that you are absolutely spot on when you say "Extremist Muslims will never forsake their faith and their Quran for the benefit of the society they live in, so what will give? They won't change or challenge their faith but they will attempt to modify the world around them because their scriptures endorse such activities". But this then opens another box of troubles: How and who will attempt to convince Muslims to teach their coming generations about following Islam devotedly and at the same time being tolerant/accepting towards other faiths? What if the extremists are misunderstanding their own scriptures and interpreting them to suit themselves? I do know that there are sections in the Quran that talk about Kafirs and interpreted in a way that could shock anyone, just curious to know what if those interpretations are far from truth?

Maybe I'm guilty of not fully understanding the intricacies of Islamic scripture, and I too have fallen into the trap of believing the headline-grabbing exaggerations about the Quran that serve to illustrate how much Islam is against non-Muslims. But in these instances, I refer to our own bloodied history and I cannot keep justifying people's problem with Islam is because we've misinterpreted it incorrectly or we're somehow biased against Islam. History has given us many, many examples where Islam has ridden rough-shod over civilisations and people in the name of their Prophet and their scriptures. How many times can we use our own personal relationships with admittedly moderate Muslims in order to give Islam a bye, and say "Oh they're a misunderstood bunch. They're good lads at the end of the day"? Whilst I'm not as anti-Muslim as some on this site, I do keep them at arms length and I do not feel the need to foster any relationships with them anymore, whether they be Mirpuri, Panjabi, Balochi, Kurdish, Iraqi, etc. If that makes me a bad person, then so be it, but from personal experiences with all types of Muslims in my own life, I feel I'm not missing out on any valuable experiences.

So are we saying that the bottom line is the issue being in their religion, scripture, and possibly a mindset arising out of that mix? Or is it a mentality which involves intolerance followed by crushing those who are not like them? Lastly, what is the best way to deal with all of this? The American dream as you said is something that has made people dilute their affiliations with their culture if needed. I am alright with that if that culture preaches hatred. But then it makes me wonder, when they come to UK, don't they have a "British dream" ? Howcome the affinity towards that lifestyle never made them dilute their affiliations with their culture? In fact, they become more of hardliners when they come to UK than they are probably even in the Middle East!

The 'British dream', more pointedly the philosophy behind such an idea, is non-existent in the UK. Although there have been attempts by British governments to create a similar ethos (for example, the last Labour government) these schemes have been unsuccessful. Some see it as a cynical attempt by the politicians to duplicate an American system which has no solid foundation in reality outside of Hollywood movies which romanticise the American way of life and its apparent opportunities.

Like West London Singh pointed out in his post, there is awareness on the part of socially and politically aware immigrants (and their offspring) about the British Empire's colonial past. Whilst these people don't walk around crying and shouting abuse about British colonial history, some do not have an affinity for Britain but merely see it as an opportunity to settle in a land of apparent freedom and financial opportunity. It may appear cynical and slightly cold to view Britian as purely a convenience for financial and social gain on the part of immigrants, but the attempts of the British media to guilt non-indigenous people into manufacturing this artificial sentimentality and affection for their adopted home does seem to be working.

For example, one particular case which illustrates my point above are the ever-increasing divisions amongst Sikhs in the UK, in terms of how those who are visually "Sikh" are viewed as backwards and archaic by those who describe themselves as Panjabi before Sikh. The issue of the Dudley cultural centre and how battle lines were drawn according to the respective groups adherence to Sikhi ('Sikh vs Panjabi') is a worrying development for us. You only had to listen to the language used by the Dudley centre supporters, i.e. "We're integrated" or "We're British" or "We live in the 21st century", i.e. implying those that do not share these sentiments - and were supporting the end of beadbi - are somehow anti-England and a threat to integration in this country. Its a very clever ploy by implying that those classic British past-times of chugging alcohol is what the chilled-out, "integrated" members of the Sikh community were promoting, whilst the Taliban-esque supporters of banning beadbi are no better than the extremist Muslims who are threatening the British way of life. Of course there's a danger I might be generalising.

[Inqlabi]

Firstly, my friend, don't believe the hype. Many of the brave strong sikh men here on this message board...are behaving like hysterical little girls when it comes to muslims. Fox News would gladly have them on as regular guests. They fit the profile well. The fact is I'm born and bred in the UK and I have recieved nothing but total kindness from every muslim I've ever met. Many, if not most, of the Pakistani muslims around this area of west London which houses the greatest numerical number of Sikhs in the UK are Pakistani Punjabis and they, just like their compatriots in Canada and America, get on with Sikhs like brothers and sisters. However.....many of the Sikhs on this message board live in areas to the north of London where the vast majority of Pakistanis, and muslims in general, are Mirpuris. In Paksitan itself the Mirpuris are looked upon as the very backward, lazy, criminal community. A Paksiatni Punjabi would much rather sit and talk to a sikh than a Mirpuri. In the UK as a whole, the Mirpuris make up the vast majority of Pakistanis.

Anyway, the above is the minor reason. The major reason is very simple and is tought in Sociology degree courses everywhere. Muslims.....and for that matter Sikhs and Hindus.....immigrate to America and Canada....for a better life....and become proud patriots of their new home...to which they are gratefull. That, my freind, is not the way things work here. For a start, here in Europe, where society has seen first hand the negative effects of nationalism and patriotism......proud patriotism is a dity word......and is seen as the natural abode of the extreme right wing. For example whenever you visit rural doaba you will always see many dozens of visiting families in each village from the UK, Canada and America respectively. The Canadian and American ones display their national flags with pride everywhere. On their clothing.....on their properties.....on their cars...everywhere. But you wil NEVER EVER EVER see a UK sikh proudly display the Union Jack flag. Never EVER !

So......what do University degree courses say is the reason for the difference in attitude between the musims in Europe and north America ? Well........a muslim youth (and our own youth for that matter) don't feel they owe any special favour to the UK, France etc. They....(and many of us for that matter) feel the UK owes us. Owes us for 300 years of slavery and theft. I'll give you an example...myself : as my family arrived in the 1940's we have, technicaly, been British continuously since 1848. Similarly, the French muslims, beimng Algerians and Morrocons etc, have been French citizens continously for hundreds of years. As such....immigrants in Europe don't tend to feel that they owe their host country any gratitude or thanks....or pride. In many ways..freedom of thought...is much stronger here in Europe than it is in America. Although America likes to tell itself it is the most free in the world, the fact is that it isn't really. It tells its people how to think and if anyone thinks any different he is instantly labelled as 'un-american' or unpatriotic. Here in Europe though, freedom of thought is real. You're allowed to make your own decision as to whether to like your country or hate your country. And the expansion of the open European border....the supremacy over parliament of eu law....and the non-relevance of national borders.....has further weakened any notion of seperate nationhood. On top of that you have the question of numbers. In america for example, the Spanish speakers are now big enough in numbers to be able to exhert their culture onto wider society in order to create a new national culture. South asians in north america are tiny in comparison and cannot create that kind of cultural phenomenon in wider society. In the UK....the phenonema is that south asians....but particularly Pakistanis....are strong and confident enough to say to society "No......why should we have to change for you ?.......why don't you change for us for a change ?" When you fight this sociological against your 'imperialists' it helps a great deal when you have a powerfull religious force behind you.....on which you can rally behind in numbers.

So..........in conclusion...your question needs a 3 year degree course to answer. And the subject will be sociology rather than theology. The difference between the muslims of the UK and the USA is the same as the difference between the Sikhs of the Uk and the USA. I'm sure you've noticed from this very forum how so many of the UK sikhs feel absolutely no afinity with the land of their birth ; the UK.

I agree that Mirpurias are worst . But what so special about Mirpur that all these criminals come from that region ?

[Mehtab Singh]

My elderly relatives in canada have had kids throwing drinks at them whilst whizzing past in their cars and just how many Sikhs need to be murdered in the USA for being a sikh before you stop imagining that 'they' "don't dare mess with us" ?

Singh jee, I thought we were discussing about Sikh-Muslim relationships? Were the drink-throwing kids whites or Muslims?

Kaljugi, another brilliant post, thanks!

[Londonlass]

Hi all

Hope you don't mind me chiming in with my opinion on this sensitive topic, I speak as a white Christian British person and can only say how I see it from my point.

For many years since the first wave of immigration to this country from Asian countries most communities have lived a cohesive life, have intergrated well and work hard for the country as a whole, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews et al ALL live peacefully side by side with the indigenous folk creating a wonderful melting pot of different cultures, food, beliefs, holidays which is open for all to enjoy, I could quite happily walk in many Sikh communities wearing whatever attire I so choose (which is always decent but stay with me here), I can have a drink with the locals, enjoy their customs and generally feel warmed by the hospitality. Now if I were to walk in various parts of the UK where there is a large muslim populus ie: Tower Hamlets, Bradford, Burnley etc etc wearing a skirt, a vest top and my hair swinging freely there is every chance as a woman I would be heckled and lorded over by some members of that community that live by an archaic informal law, who believe that I as a female should be covered from head to toe in a Burka/Niquab, the only butchers shops in those areas are the ones that sell cruelly sourced Halal meats, the other butchers shops having been driven from the area through lack of custom, If I were to want a glass of wine or take a stroll with my male freinds who are gay again under some barbaric form of Sharia Law we would be made in no uncertain terms to feel very uncomfortable in those areas.

Why is it only Muslims that choose to live under informal apartheid, refusing to assimilate with other faiths and cultures? Why is it only the Koran that preaches death to the kaffur/non believers? Why do Muslims feel they have more rights in the UK than any other citizen?

Most white folks I know are very able to distinguish between sikhs, muslims and Hindus, it does not take a rocket scientist to see who the bad apples are in this bunch, and we must bear in mind that Muslims come in all shades it is not necessarily a race issue. I along with many others are proud to have the sikh community on side with this issue, we as Brits have to fight for the right to keep OUR laws in force, to be able to co-exist peacefully, to appreciate that yes we may all have differing faiths and beliefs but we can still be friends, something Muslims need to be taught before civil war does break out on our streets.

Thanks for listening x

[SunSingh]

i'm reminded of reading about police chiefs in the the USA and their varied attempts to deal with inner city crime. The ones who were successful were so b/c they actually applied the law to those inner city residents. When the inner city residents called for help, the police actually went to their aid. The ones who were not successful, the cities where inner city crime grew, were unsuccessful b/c the police didnt' do their job. When the inner city residents themselves called for help police often would not go. When gang members violated relatively minor laws like drinking in public or loitering, police wouldn't enforce those laws. this emboldened the gangs and their harassment of the public increased. the reason cops did nothing was b/c they cared more about how they were viewed than actually helping people. if you ask me, the actions of those police was distinctly racist since their informal policies deliberately harmed minority communities so that they could build up a good reputation. anyways, that was what they claimed, who knows, perhaps they didn't respond b/c of dislike of minorities.

now look at the situation in britain and europe. didn't the police in many areas not enforce the law with regard to muslims? doesn't the media as well use the word 'asians' instead of muslims when they cause problems? The issue of the targetting of girls of non-muslim descent for grooming (along with the poor police response) is particularly salient when examining this issue.