A Buddhist Can Immolate Himself Peacefully To Protest Oppression ... Is This A Proof Of Their Kamaai

[chatanga]

en we have precedents in our older and more modern itihass Marjeeva sikhs like Bibi Anup Kaur and Fateh Singh of their self scarifice.

i was thinking exactly thre same thing about the sakhi of Bibi Anup Kaur.

.Why do we have a hard time understanding that he was a Buddhist, and he stayed true to his dharm? Just a question, do you believe only Sikhs can attain Atam Gyan?

This is the key issue here.

[Mat Pulo Rai]

.Why do we have a hard time understanding that he was a Buddhist, and he stayed true to his dharm? Just a question, do you believe only Sikhs can attain Atam Gyan?

According to Gurbani anyone with enough will and effort can reach levels of Ridh Sidh also lower level of Unhadh Shabad (ones which are heard in Dev Loog)

This is the same avasta the Sidhs had which Guru Nanak Dev Jee met in the mountains (written in Sidh Ghoast) but they are not mukth as you can only achieve mukti once you reached Unhadh Bani which is heard from the gates of Vaheguru. Mukti is the 1st stage of Bhagthi, there is much more after. You can listen to Sant Isher Singhs Jees Audios he explains what stages he went through before he Met Vaheguru.

[chatanga]

yes but can only Sikhs achieve that?

have there ever been any non-Sikhs who have acheived that Unhad Bani from the gates of Waheguru?

[Mat Pulo Rai]

yes but can only Sikhs achieve that?

have there ever been any non-Sikhs who have acheived that Unhad Bani from the gates of Waheguru?

Mind has no cast color creed and is the player which Vaheguru has sent to Earth to play the Game vs Kaam Kroad Lob Mou Hankar, so the answer is anyone can win this Game and return to there true home (Nihj Kaar) but whos going to tell you how defeat these Punj, Gurbani says only Sat Guru and his Sants/Gurmukhs/Brahm Giaanis know the full Piadh (Knowledge) how to defeat these vices also, Naam (unhand bani) which is the only way to get mukthi is obtained from Sat Guru, and Sat Gurus are instated by God

bin sathigur ko naao n paaeae prabh aisee banath banaaee hae |9|

Without the Sat Guru, no one finds the Name. Such is the making which God has made. ||9||

bin sathigur kinai n paaeiaa kar kar thakae veechaar

Without the True Guru, no one finds the Lord. People have grown weary of thinking about it

bin sathigur kihu n dhaekhiaa jaae |

Without the True Guru, the Lord cannot be seen.

gur saevaa thae har naam paaeiaa bin sathigur koe n paavaniaa |1|

Serving the Guru, the Lord's Name is obtained. Without the True Guru, no one can receive it. ||1||

So there is no barrier for anyone Sikh Muslim Hindu or other to Meet Vaheguru, but he can only be found through whoever Vaheguru instates Sat Guru.

[N30S1NGH]

I think this thread has gone way off-topic which is against sikhsangat policy i believe. I have tried myself to stay within topic. If people wish to discuss semantics around label of satguru in gurbani or how gurmat is limited to sikhs only, they can create another thread..i will try my best to contribute there.

[Only five]

Sikhi is a complete religion and way of life that does not need to be improved or changed in any format that will straighten out some curves it has. Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj came down in the form as Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj to spread and teach this universal religion. Just like how universally the law of gravity applies to everyone in this world the same is true for Sikhi. You want to jump off a 300 feet cliff freely then the results are the same for a Sikh and for everyone else in this world....your body will go splat and your dead. In Sri Jap ji Sahib we are told by our actions we will be judged. When i refer to 'our' that just doesn't include Sikhs, but everyone on this planet (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, Christians, Jews, and it includes your neighbor that says hes half Muslim and half Buddhist). The reality is that Sikhi is not just a belief system. As Sikhs we need to move past this and understand that Sikhi is the truth, the fact of life and if you go against this fact you will recieve the consequences. You put your hand on a hot stove then you will get burned in the same way Sikhi is the law of religion and if you go against Sikhi (doesn't matter what religion you claim to be a part of) you will be judged.

This Buddhist monk had reached a high spiritual level no doubt, but according to Sikhi he had to abide by the law of religion, which is Sikhi. IF this Buddhist had Satguru teachings in him, then he would not have set himself on fire. Today many Sikhs use Bhai Taru Singhs strong committment for not letting his hair be cut as a reason to keep their hair uncut. This reasoning is after the fact and is not the reason to keep hair in Gurmat. IF you think it is, then ask yourself what was the reason for Bhai Taru Singh to keep his hair uncut? :wow: We get our strength for keeping hair from listening to Bhai Taru Singh sakhi, but where did he get the strenght and guidance from? Bhai Taru Singh followed Satguru's Hukam and let Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj's do whatever he wanted with him. When Sikhs say let me be cut to pieces by the oppressor, but i will never leave the field of battle. This doesn't include, I'll do it myself. No where in history and any of our Guru's Granths will you find our Gurus telling us to kill ourselves by our own hand. If any "enemy" comes and does it, then we are not to be blamed and it was Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj Hukam. Singhs and Singhni that were chopped up by the "enemy" didn't fear the torture because a) they had Bani in them b) Because of the Bani they realized that Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj is torturing them (what is there to fear?) and they need to follow what they have been taught by Satguru's Hukam (meditate 24/7). If someone want to talk about Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj Hukam, then they shouldn't shy away from saying suicide, rape, killing children is his Hukam as well. What i have been talking about in this post is Satguru's Hukam, which is what we have been told to follow in order for us to follow Dharma (religion/Sikhi). All the Gurus that gave up their worldly life never took their own life. Everytime it was by the enemy's hand where Satguru body was killed. Even some of the examples given in this thread by those veers that want to say Satguru approves of the buddhist behaviour is where the "enemy" took the Singhs or Singhni's life.

However the Buddhist followed his religion, not Satguru's Hukam, decided to take his life. There are many levels of manmat. Many of us are well aware of the lowest forms, but the more we grow in spirituality then we realize what are some of the higher levels of manmat we practice throughout our daily life.

Baba Atal ji's name was placed on this page as proof for taking your own life is okay in Sikhi (or we only can assume it was placed here for this reason because the original poster never explained why he used Baba ji's name). I and guess others would appreciate it, if these veers started explaining why they post all these names and throw names. It's like that story with the raja telling everyone i have the nicest dastar covered in this blanket and then he calls over his chela and he tells the sangat.....yup it's the nicest dastar, there is no beautiful dastar than this one. And then the raja calls over another chela and he says the exact same thing and the raja is hoping that everyone just accepts what he and his chelaa are saying, without showing the "beautiful" dastar and letting the sangat understand. Anyway's i have read about Baba Atal Ji's sakhi and it does not even fit into what we are talking about. In short Baba Atal ji at a young age used his powers to bring his friend back from the dead and then Satguru said you went against Satguru's Hukam (Satguru's Grace) and Baba Atal Ji had to according to Satguru's Grace give his life for his wrong action. So the context of the sakhi shows that this event is very much different than what the Buddhist monk did.

I could add more, but time doesn't permit me right now.

[RebelSingh]

When Sikhs say let me be cut to pieces by the oppressor, but i will never leave the field of battle. This doesn't include, I'll do it myself. No where in history and any of our Guru's Granths will you find our Gurus telling us to kill ourselves by our own hand. If any "enemy" comes and does it, then we are not to be blamed and it was Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj Hukam.

does that mean we r not allowed 2 do suicide bombing btw? coz for the past year or so, ive defended suicide bombings done by sikhs, because the guru's have never drawn the line in methods of killing the dusht dushman (evil enemy). coz bibi satnam/wahegurus suicide bombings (8 n 6 yr olds) of indian tanks in bluestar and bhai dilawer's suicide bombing of pappi beant r two fantastic examples of suicide bombings.

also many kharkoos/militants during the 90's committed suicide via poison/syanide pills, is that wrong too in that situation? coz its rackin my brain, coz i kno sikhi is 100% against suicide, as its not in gods plan, but the kharkoos did, n no 1 bats an eyelid. kinda strange init.

anyone?

[Khaalis]

I mentioned 2 examples in the context of 'can there be a valid reason for one taking their own life'.

Leaving the wallpaper behind, this is the crux of the discussion. I am not forcing an opinion, but simply discussing.

1 - Baba Atal Rai Ji chose to leave his body in order to correct his action of reanimating his friend Mohan. Baba Ji has still been given the utmost respect in the Sikh Panth.

2 - Bhai Dilawar Singh Shaheed and Bhai Balwant Singh Rajoana - do their actions/intended actions also go against 'Gurmat' as they too chose to take their life for a higher cause, which in this case was the assasination of CM Beant Singh.

I'll be interested to hear Mat Pulo Rai and Only5s thoughts. My question relates to the singular arguement of whether one can take ones life - irrelevant of the reason. If 'reasons' do end up being discussed, then this shows that the subject of taking ones life is not as black and white as is being made out here.

Regarding the reason for Monk Thich Quang Duc's sacrifice - it could not have been for a better reason - he single handedly stopped persecution of his dharm, got international communities on side and ensured the oppresive Roman Catholic Rulers were ousted very quickly. He also showed through his amazing level of avastha and qurbani, that Buddism was not an inferior religion to the heavily promoted Catholicism - and brought many Vietnamese back into the Buddist fold. The miracle of his heart no burning on 2 occassions (2nd time after they tried to cremate his remains) also showed that divine miracles are also not a monopoly of Christianity history.

There has also been talk of comparing Sadhus (Sidhs) from Guru Nanak Dev Jis time. Let's not forget, that it was Khalsai that showed the power of Akaal, through smiling through torture and death, not the Sidhs. We shouldn't go by theories, but by actions. If the most respected Sadhus (Kashmiri) of the time had avastha equal to the great Monk in question, they why did they ask Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji for help? They could have given the sacrifice themselves.

No one is comparing Guru Sahiban to anyone else, but the power of sacrifice is universal. There is only one source for greatness and divinity.

[chatanga]

also many kharkoos/militants during the 90's committed suicide via poison/syanide pills, is that wrong too in that situation? coz its rackin my brain, coz i kno sikhi is 100% against suicide, as its not in gods plan, but the kharkoos did, n no 1 bats an eyelid. kinda strange init.

Cyanide pills were available to all kharkus. Those who got caught by ravan sena preferd to die this way, lest they be tortured by police and let something out whoch would endanger other Sikhs. So i totally understand their actions.

In 1988 in OP Black Thunder at Sri DarbarSahib, Bhai Kaarj Singh Thande took a cyanide pill rather than give himself up to the ravan sena. Others chose to walk out with their hands up....

[RebelSingh]

Cyanide pills were available to all kharkus. Those who got caught by ravan sena preferd to die this way, lest they be tortured by police and let something out whoch would endanger other Sikhs. So i totally understand their actions.

In 1988 in OP Black Thunder at Sri DarbarSahib, Bhai Kaarj Singh Thande took a cyanide pill rather than give himself up to the ravan sena. Others chose to walk out with their hands up....

yea i thort so, cheers bro, kinda similar 2 chandrashekar azad, who rather than let the british take him alive, he either took a pill or shot himself, (cant remember)