A Buddhist Can Immolate Himself Peacefully To Protest Oppression ... Is This A Proof Of Their Kamaai

[N30S1NGH]

Regardless of whatever one thinks of buddhism as faith, we can do deep comparison of their faith with gurmat on another thread. They say- best way to compare any faith is compare the mantras/mahavaks to look for similarities or differences, because from mantras all theological explanation of an faith derives from. Also off course, i haven't read Parasprasna..i will love to read it during later discussion. Can anyone pm or post a link for ebook if its available?

But lets recap this thread and for the sake of unity within sikhs lets point common things we can all agree on:

Common points which we can all agree on because they are based on facts:

1. It's not easy to burn yourself alive, you have to be very strong mentally and emotionally.

2. It's not easy to sit firmly while being burnt to ashes (most joe blow including me- move during simran when feeling slight itch on the arse), sit firmly while being burnt alive(one of highest human test) suggest mind control over matter which can be gained through intense meditation/abhyas.

3. The fact that his self immolation bought positive changes towards equality of Buddhist- state reversed of lot of unfair policies against buddhist, buddhist human right abuses fell significantly in Vietnam.

4. The fact that after his self immolation, his disciples during re-ceremation found his heart untouched by fire, unburned shows an miracle directly/indirectly from Vahiguroo (as we don't beleive in satan) which still to this day serve as symbolism of self sacrifice as his heart is still found in museum

[humkire]

N30SINGH Jee,

I think you are muddling up a lot of things for reasons unclear to me. You have to keep your reasoning clear, simple and logical not be awash with plenty of religious/theological concepts that excite you but are inconsistent against each other and appear erratic and all over the place and unsystematically thought true. Thats when you will develop true gurmat gyanta step by step.

Whatever the topic at hand is you have to check yourself from getting headstrong about it and turning it into a debate empty of gurmukhi love and humility expressing itself through a sincere desire to investigate truth. This website does not exist just to teach others but for people to have a willingness to learn from others too.

Now back to what your response was.... as I originally explained you will not find the history of Sikhism well littered with example after example of shaheedees resulting from self immolation because this is not an accepted form of dharmic action/expression in gurmat. To understand this you should consult some leading gurmukhs in the area you live because explaining this is a long essay by itself. Normally, once you have accepted khande ka pahul and start associating with gurmukhs this is one of the earliest things you learn about Sikhi vis a vis other faiths.

Gurmat maryada sets one free yes but it has bandish i.e it is not a free for all as you seem to have interpreted Harkhowale when you cut and pasted ''Parkash Nuo Koi Khes Di Bhand Ch Nahi Ban Sakhda". For example in Sikhi it is cast in sarbloh and chains that a Khalsa does not smoke or that a Khalsa chants gurmantar sas gras etc. You cannot get away from that. It is a bandish but that bandish sets us free to be with the God who is free. You need to rid yourself of any justifications for supporting any form of self suicide by non sikhs or sikhs and making any association of that with shaheed khand etc. It does not hold water in Tat Gurmat.

Your next issue was about justifying self suicide to be some form of hukum of Akal Purukh. While that may be so and who can tell, we as Sikhs do not condone it for any reason according to the teachings of our Gurus that we abide by. As far as any Sikh is concerned our constant message must be that human life is precious and is a time to meet Govind and at no cost must anyone take their own life to commit suicide. We are not here to play God and second guess what is and not is God's hukum when anything bad happens such as a suicide. Rather we are here to teach Sikhi to ourselves and the world.

Your last issue was about the martyrdoms of our fifth and ninth Gurdevs. I do not understand what has that got to do with self suicide which is the issue at hand. You do yourself injustice to drag the martyrdoms of our great Gurdevs into a discussion about the self suicide of some monk which is totally manmat. Gurus giving us Sikhi, getting martyred, giving us amrit as part of God's hukum is a different issue from some human being monk or no monk committing suicide as God's hukum. It is like wanting to taste sugar and salt at the same time. These are separate issues best not discussed under the same breath.

Finally, read my earlier response to understand carefully and clearly that Sikhs do not commit suicide for whatever reason and instead of that , live by the doctrine of sva lakh se ek lraoo. Try digesting what is being said instead of replying back almost instantly as if you feel threatened or provoked by others replies.

[humkire]

N30SINGH Jee,

In addition to what I have just typed, I realise you added another post about 4 things to agree upon concerning that monk's self suicide. Rather than worry about agreeing on 4 or 10 or 100 things good or bad about the self suicide of some monk which is 100% manmat, you should be concerned about becoming a chardikela Khalsa like Harkhowale that you quoted and doing a great sewa for Sikhi and preaching and spreading Sikhi as much as possaible through Guru's kirpa in the short time that is left of your life on earth before you die. That applies to us all. Full stop.

[N30S1NGH]

Now back to what your response was.... as I originally explained you will not find the history of Sikhism well littered with example after example of shaheedees resulting from self immolation because this is not an accepted form of dharmic action/expression in gurmat. To understand this you should consult some leading gurmukhs in the area you live because explaining this is a long essay by itself.

We have sant-khalsa bhramgyani baba bir singh ji nurangabad shaheedi, it was self sacrifice compare with this self immolation which is without any doubt self sacrifice as well. Dogra came to attack, he instead feed them langar and (knowingly) got shaheedi doing so..baba ji kachera which has cannon imprints its still available for people to do darshan. His shaheedi shows advaish/pateince and this monk shaheedi shows patience as well. Each self scarifice gives us teaching one way or another. Whether you look at self scarifice of guru's or karak bhramgyanis.

Baba Bir Singh Ji Naurangabad Shaheedi shows gurbani tuk below partakh and in pratical roop:

Bhramgyani Sada Nirdokh

Jaise Sur Sarab Kao Sokh

Bhramgyani Kai Darisat Saman

Jaise Raj Rankh Kou Lagai Pavan

Bhramgyani Kai Dhiraj Ek

Jai Basudha Kou Khodaie Kou Chandan Lep

-Then we have precedents in our older and more modern itihass Marjeeva sikhs like Bibi Anup Kaur and Fateh Singh of their self scarifice.

- We have Marjeeva sikh Darshan Singh Pheruman who died cause of hunger strike. He died at 74th day.

http://www.sikh-hist...s/pheruman.html

There are others which other members of the forum have mentioned in this thread and previous thread on the same topic.

Gurmat maryada sets one free yes but it has bandish i.e it is not a free for all as you seem to have interpreted Harkhowale when you cut and pasted ''Parkash Nuo Koi Khes Di Bhand Ch Nahi Ban Sakhda". For example in Sikhi it is cast in sarbloh and chains that a Khalsa does not smoke or that a Khalsa chants gurmantar sas gras etc. You cannot get away from that. It is a bandish but that bandish sets us free to be with the God who is free. You need to rid yourself of any justifications for supporting any form of self suicide by non sikhs or sikhs and making any association of that with shaheed khand etc. It does not hold water in Tat Gurmat.

Gurmat is Anadi. We can discuss this on another thread as we would be going totally off topic doing so in this thread. I don't have to prove it because no one needs to proof that sun is there or moon is there, its partakh. Yes we can do vichar, you can open up another thread if you like.

Normally, once you have accepted khande ka pahul and start associating with gurmukhs this is one of the earliest things you learn about Sikhi vis a vis other faiths.

Lot of people compare religions to prove each other dharam superior than others. Nothing is superior nothing is inferior. In bhramgyan its all one ras. I compare it to look tat nichor of each dharam and leave it at that.

Your last issue was about the martyrdoms of our fifth and ninth Gurdevs. I do not understand what has that got to do with self suicide which is the issue at hand. You do yourself injustice to drag the martyrdoms of our great Gurdevs into a discussion about the self suicide of some monk which is totally manmat. Gurus giving us Sikhi, getting martyred, giving us amrit as part of God's hukum is a different issue from some human being monk or no monk committing suicide as God's hukum. It is like wanting to taste sugar and salt at the same time. These are separate issues best not discussed under the same breath

I agree there are seperate issues cannot be discussed under same breath. I apologize to bring our guru sahiban shaheediyan into this but my point was to show how self scarifice is ingrained in our religion- our guru sahiban laid the foundation of it and this tradition was showed pratically by our karak bhramgyanis followed by marjeeva sikhs

That was my point, it was never my intention to compare guru sahiban with buddhist monk. So i guess its in best interest not to compare shaheediyan of guru sahiban and shaheedi of karak bhramgyanis like baba bir singh ji nurangabad or enlightened buddhist saint.

Finally, read my earlier response to understand carefully and clearly that Sikhs do not commit suicide for whatever reason and instead of that , live by the doctrine of sva lakh se ek lraoo. Try digesting what is being said instead of replying back almost instantly as if you feel threatened or provoked by others replies

There is doctrine laid by sri guru arjan dev ji upon his shaheedi- tera bhana mitha lagaie || as well. Again i don't see any conflict of these two supreme doctrines given by our guru sahiban. They are not meant to supercede each other, just like how sant-sipahi concept are not meant to supercede each other. It fits right in, i don't see any conflict, do you? if you do, how can we prefer one doctrine over another?.

[N30S1NGH]

N30SINGH Jee,

In addition to what I have just typed, I realise you added another post about 4 things to agree upon concerning that monk's self suicide. Rather than worry about agreeing on 4 or 10 or 100 things good or bad about the self suicide of some monk which is 100% manmat, you should be concerned about becoming a chardikela Khalsa like Harkhowale that you quoted and doing a great sewa for Sikhi and preaching and spreading Sikhi as much as possaible through Guru's kirpa in the short time that is left of your life on earth before you die. That applies to us all. Full stop.

There is no point of preaching sikhi to sikhs who are self absorbed in themselves.They think they are entitled and feel high sense of entitlement choose ones (saviour/self righetous)ones from birth, every one else its manmatiya, karam khandi..!!

Sant Harkhowale is known as - katar sant by sant jarnail singh bhindranwale themselves when they were joking with sant jagjit singh harkhowale. There were many sidhaie bachans towards those who are stuck at shariat you will find. Baba ji all his life did parchar of anadi gurmat and against bhausarias who have always suppressed gurmat and try to hide sri guru nanak dev parkash - they were that insecure and ultra parnioad that they even change contents in sri guru granth sahib. Please read about them: http://www.sikhsanga...t-in-the-panth/

Actually this problem of self absorbed and feeling high sense of entitlement happens in each and every dharam no dharam is immune from it. Usually those who are stuck in shariat(its stage not to get stuck at but to rise from) keep singing and glorifying their respective dharams(how they are better than others) instead of actually looking into tat nichor of their respective dharam, moving into different stages of dharam such as tariqaat, marfat and hakikat to aim for that tat nichor.

[Khaalis]

I've still not recieved a reply to what members think of suicide bombers, who are also deliberately ending their life for a higher cause.

On the matter of choosing to end ones own life, how about the decision of Baba Atal Rai Ji....?

[Akal Warrior]

Do you kids even know what you're talking about? We talk about deep spiritual things, but have absolutely ZERO knowledge of anything. Quit kidding yourself...we have no right to judge other people's kamai when we have none ourselves.

[Koi]

Off course not its always been to do with cham. I knew it all along:

Had this video being of an singh with sarbloh bibek/dummala with aad chand who can do naam simran like you do in smagam self immolating himself/ died out of hunger strike in front of delhi parliament for injustice against sikhs then it would have been counted and his soul would have received with loads of naam jhapiya and soul would be allowed in gurmukh/ tat gurmat - shaheedi khand made out of sarbloh doors and chains to prevent any patit/manmatiya like this monk to even think about entering into this mahan tat gurmat - shaheedi khand.

Wow what a load off my shoulders..

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha :lol2: :excited: :yay:

Well said.

This Buddhist monk has, by self-immoliating, given a great sacrifice worthy of respect by all.

Sometimes, to create awareness of problems, issues, oppression, these things need to be done. For example, look at Shaheed Bhagat Singh. He himself said his inspiration was Shaheed Kartar Singh Saraba. He knew he was going to be executed for throwing the bomb (and his part in Saunders' murder), but he did it so he could use the courts as a platform to awaken the masses. His sacrifice also inspired thousands of others to join in the struggle for freedom.

By self-immoliating, this monk has created awareness about the tyrannical governments' regime. He has got everyone talking about it... which is what we're soing now.

Mission accomplished. Respect.

[chatanga]

chatanga sahib, I have taken time to help you understand that this monk's actions do not conform with gurmat, but if you refuse to deliberate on what is being explained but rather choose to say ''It really sounds like you dont know what you're talking about'' then it appears you have a) made up your mind and opinion to be a die-hard defender of this monk's actions, and b) you judge those who oppose you to be retarded neanderthals, incapable of understanding either you or themselves.

Bro, I dont judge you or anyone to be neanderthals, dont get so worked up ok? You have stated about the sant-sipahi about him " organises an effective and active action-orientated strategy to rally support, stand up for the truth and fiercely battle with oppression.

For me that monk achieved that. I have never said that that monks actions are in accordance with gurmat, i have in the other thread as well, stataed that he has acted wthin the remit of his own pacifist faith. To me, looking at it through Gurmat view, has no bearance on his actions, or even relevance either.

a)your first priority should be to judge everything said, done and heard according to gurmat no matter how good something or someone is,

why should it? when gurmat is path for me and not for 6.88 billion people on this earth, why? I can judge my own actions through gurmat, only.

b)you should have picked up very very early on after taking khande ka pahul(if you are a rehatvaan Singh) that self immolation no matter how wondrous its benefits be, is unacceptable in Sikhi and the reasons for that

see, i never said it was accepted in sikhi, i said from his own buddhist perspective it was right.

c)the manner of your talk expressed in just that little bit of your sentence I have cut and pasted is not how Sikhs should talk to each other. We have in the middle of the worst argument demonstrate that we are married to humility in our words, thoughts and actions. This is the first pauree in Sikhi. We cannot call ourselves Sikhs if we talk to each other the way manmukhs talk to each other, even if we are right. May Waheguru bless you with humility especially when you talk to others older to you and may you be blessed with a razor sharp bibek buddhi in your gurmat soch-vichar.

You are right, and i will choose my words carefully , and thank you for that.

[chatanga]

Not long ago, there was a sikh girl threatening to throw herself off a tall building in delhi, becasue she had not received any compensation from being a victim in delhi riots.