Bhagat Kabir Ji Da Janam Diwas

[Only five]

Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj can never be refered to as Satguru...............just like how a Sant can't be refered to as Satguru. Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars were to be put in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, so do we call Bhai Sahib, as Satguru as well???? No! Never because Satguru is title given only to the 11 Gurus. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj also corrected Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj where he was wrong. Satguru is never wrong...........this is one difference that clearly shows the difference. Bhatt Bani is also in Satguru, so do we refer to them as Satguru????

Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj became one with Akal Purakh, but Satguru never called Bhagat ji, Satguru. They are still Bhagats, just like how Sants who are jivan mukht are still Sants.

[UKLondonSikh]

If you feel so strongly about it you should draft something for the Akal Takhat Sahib and present your proposal to them. If they agree - and all jathebandyia accept the proposal - then I guess the whole Panth should refer to all bhagats as Guru.

A one man request would hardly have much impact Kaljugi Paji ... hence the need to put this idea out there first (as I know it has very minimal support at the moment) ... but let me ask you in your interactions with UK Ravidassia youth ... have you noted how the term Guru is very sensitive (and could be used to divide our Panth)?

[UKLondonSikh]

Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj can never be refered to as Satguru...............just like how a Sant can't be refered to as Satguru. Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars were to be put in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, so do we call Bhai Sahib, as Satguru as well???? No! Never because Satguru is title given only to the 11 Gurus. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj also corrected Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj where he was wrong. Satguru is never wrong...........this is one difference that clearly shows the difference. Bhatt Bani is also in Satguru, so do we refer to them as Satguru????

Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj became one with Akal Purakh, but Satguru never called Bhagat ji, Satguru. They are still Bhagats, just like how Sants who are jivan mukht are still Sants.

I'll be frank with you Paji ... I don't really overly disagree with what you've said above. However, for pragmatic purposes (restricted to Kabir Ji Maharaj and Ravidas Ji Maharaj) i really don't see this as an issue for us to worry about given that we can hardly separate those who became one with Akaal Purakh ... so why not let us be practical about the issue when it comes to interactions with our Kabirpanthi and Ravidassia brothers at the very least?

[VanHelsingh]

A one man request would hardly have much impact Kaljugi Paji ... hence the need to put this idea out there first (as I know it has very minimal support at the moment) ... but let me ask you in your interactions with UK Ravidassia youth ... have you noted how the term Guru is very sensitive (and could be used to divide our Panth)?

If you want the widespread and immediate change you're suggesting, then it has to come from an official source. We can ask, demand or ruminate on any numbers of issues (the kind of ground-level discussions or langar-hall chatting that have been occuring for many a year, lol) but unless you really want action to be taken then you've got to get serious.

[Jonny101]

I'll be frank with you Paji ... I don't really overly disagree with what you've said above. However, for pragmatic purposes (restricted to Kabir Ji Maharaj and Ravidas Ji Maharaj) i really don't see this as an issue for us to worry about given that we can hardly separate those who became one with Akaal Purakh ... so why not let us be practical about the issue when it comes to interactions with our Kabirpanthi and Ravidassia brothers at the very least?

Bhaaji, I actually agree with you on the part that we should forge relations with Kabir Panthis and other Panths which claim to follow the Bhagat Sahibans as they can be considered our cousins. But forging relations does not mean we should ignore our Nyaraapan. Khalsa is to remain Nyaraa. Infact I think we should do Parchar to them and bring them into the KHalsa Panth. Ravidasis of Punjab are a different story. Unlike the Kabir Panthis who actually can claim a link Bhagat Kabir Jee going back hundreds of years, the Ravidasias in Punjab (more particularly Doaba region) are a recent creation. They created this Panth during the 20th century as a reaction to the discrimination that they faced from Jats. So to forge their own independent and proud identity they created the Ravidasia community. We need to destroy our caste barriers and bring our Ravidasia brothers back into the Khalsa fold. Same is true for the Churah community in Majha who have largely become Christian due to the discrimination they faced from Jats.

[MokhamSingh]

I'll be frank with you Paji ... I don't really overly disagree with what you've said above. However, for pragmatic purposes (restricted to Kabir Ji Maharaj and Ravidas Ji Maharaj) i really don't see this as an issue for us to worry about given that we can hardly separate those who became one with Akaal Purakh ... so why not let us be practical about the issue when it comes to interactions with our Kabirpanthi and Ravidassia brothers at the very least?

Khalsa Ji

SGGS Ji says that Guru Nanak Ji are Naryan , I.e. the full embodiment of Waheguru. Bhagats become Waheguru roop through Bhagti , they are not born as " Aap Naryan ".

The Avasta of Satguru is supreme.

[JSinghnz]

I just can't understand how we can waste our energies on a non-issue.

Why do so people try to reinvent the wheel.

There is absolutely no need to for ask, demand or ruminate on such trivial matters.

[UKLondonSikh]

If you want the widespread and immediate change you're suggesting, then it has to come from an official source. We can ask, demand or ruminate on any numbers of issues (the kind of ground-level discussions or langar-hall chatting that have been occuring for many a year, lol) but unless you really want action to be taken then you've got to get serious.

I agree with u Paji. SGPC have shown that they don't care about the growing divide (particularly) with Ravidassia's. Without substantial support on an issue it gets nowhere. So as somone who is only on SikhSangat until this Jubilee period peters out (due to the usual work pressures) I thought others on the site hopefully might see that this is a serious thing that needs thought whereby we can arrive at a collective decision for our own interactions (even without or in advance of SGPC validation).

[VanHelsingh]

I agree with u Paji. SGPC have shown that they don't care about the growing divide (particularly) with Ravidassia's. Without substantial support on an issue it gets nowhere. So as somone who is only on SikhSangat until this Jubilee period peters out (due to the usual work pressures) I thought on the site hopefully might see that this is a serious thing that needs thought.

You're really serious about this aren't you? I thought you were pulling my leg...

[UKLondonSikh]

Bhaaji, I actually agree with you on the part that we should forge relations with Kabir Panthis and other Panths which claim to follow the Bhagat Sahibans as they can be considered our cousins. But forging relations does not mean we should ignore our Nyaraapan. Khalsa is to remain Nyaraa. Infact I think we should do Parchar to them and bring them into the KHalsa Panth. Ravidasis of Punjab are a different story. Unlike the Kabir Panthis who actually can claim a link Bhagat Kabir Jee going back hundreds of years, the Ravidasias in Punjab (more particularly Doaba region) are a recent creation. They created this Panth during the 20th century as a reaction to the discrimination that they faced from Jats. So to forge their own independent and proud identity they created the Ravidasia community. We need to destroy our caste barriers and bring our Ravidasia brothers back into the Khalsa fold. Same is true for the Churah community in Majha who have largely become Christian due to the discrimination they faced from Jats.

Agreed Paji, i think you see exactly where I am coming from and why. Khalsa Panth (within the wider Sikh Panth) has to remain Nyaraa without a doubt. But I think we can twist semantics for pragmatic reasons without going against SGGS Ji Maharaj