Can Sikhs Still Be Considered Martial

[fightingsingh]

Personally I'm in favour of military sevice/experience. As dalsingh101 pointed out. there is the problem of being used to fight other peoples' causes. There is also an element of indoctrination that takes place in the military regarding nationalism and nationalist causes... ie Sikhs in the modern Indian Army are more likely to see themselves as Indian and protectors of the country as they have sworn an oath and are unlikely to support any Sikh causes. If you look at reports of Sikh troops who mutinied in 1984, some of the reasons given were that they were new recruits who were still raw and not enough time had been given for full naturalisation and indoctrination to take place.

Having said that, I believe that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. From a community protection point of view, people like Major General Subeg Singh, did great sewa for the community, as did other military trained personnel who identified with and helped to organise the Sikh cause. Their military knowledge and experience was put to great use. The same thing happened in the 1947 partition, one of the reasons that we were able to hold our own, was because of the large percentage of servicemen in our community who organised and formed jathas to protect us. Clearly, people who have served in the military, are going to be alot better at this kind of thing than people who just sit behind a desk and fix computers.

Also, a strong military presence instils a sense of pride in the community. Bravery, honour, discipline winning medals etc... whether you agree about Sikhs fighting for the British or not, Sikhs living in Britain have done well on the back of that investment and it is because of those investments and sacrifices that we enjoy certain freedoms in Britain, that we probably dont enjoy anywhere else.

So I would say a big YES to the military. Even if Sikhs dont sign up for full-time service, there are lots of opportunities in the Territorial Army/Reserves and Cadet Forces. Also, there are the Police reserves or specials. These give the best of both worlds really... exposure to military/paramliitary training, but allow you do stay with your family and leaves you enough time to do your main job full-time.

Having said that, the whole military thing is not for everyone. As I said in my previous posts, there are numerous ways that we can inject martial living in our lives. Its down to the individual how they want to go about expressing that warrior side and nurturing it inside of them. However, one thing is for certain. If you do absolutely nothing and invest no time into it, dont be surprised if you crumble and melt in the face of high pressure or conflict. Warriors are forged through fire, not born.

Train hard, fight easy. Bruuuuuuuah

[dalsingh101]

Problem with modern day military/police types in the UK is that they NEVER seem to do anything at ground level, which requires risk. Such people become (predictably) concerned with preserving their occupation, and from my experiences, those Sikhs in the police are especially susceptible to start parroting whatever authorities want them too.

For me an essential component of a 'martial spirit' is an independent mind. Having someone trained up doing other communities bidding has its problems. We can point as exceptions like General Subegh, but we need to acknowledge that the same system created more General Brars and KPS Gill types than Subeghs. Therein lies the problem in my opinion. What such institutional indoctrination usually produces is a drone/lemming more loyal to his organisation than his people. A dog that would have no problem arresting another Sikh brother that might have done something hot for the community for example. People paint the Khalistani lehar as Sikh versus Hindu, yet at ground level in Panjab, what you found was that most people doing the extra-judiciary murdering of apnay were - Sikhs themselves. Look up the murderers of Jaswant Singh Khalra for example.

It says a lot that most of the people that have actually put their money where their mouth is for the community in the UK over the last few years weren't ex-soldier or police types, but rather people who were disparagingly referred to as 'street brawlers' earlier. Guys who drink, go to bars etc. and may not be angels. I'm not saying that people should mimic them, but acknowledgement of this truth is important.

But, as fightingsingh pointed out earlier, by and large we seem to be going down the middle class direction, I know from personally talking to some of the types of brothers mentioned in the last paragraph, that they actually lament what they perceive as the sorry state of todays generation of Sikh males, and feel our strength is dwindling as a result of our increasing affluence. On reflecting on some of the insightful posts i've read on this thread, I don't think anything can be done about this.

All that being said, I think any community that loudly proclaims their 'martial spirit' but doesn't have these credentials at ground level ends up looking pathetic. Maybe now that we are experiencing unprecedented levels of stability in certain places there will be a subtle but significant shift of emphasis from our warrior heritage to other aspects of our inheritance, like the philosophical or theological or musical for example? Then again, put our lot in a tight enough situation and they usually (eventually) react with teeth, so the fat lady hasn't sung just yet. lol

[dalsingh101]

military will scare guys like dalsingh101 away but alot of youth will get inspired

Wouldn't scare me at all, I just don't like the idea of being some other communities attack dog.

You ever think about karma? If we get involved in suppressing other communities, you don't think we will have karma on an individual and even corporate level coming back to us?

You think people 'have learned their lesson from Iraq'? Get real, certain nations are predatory, if they perceive another easy opportunity to grab, they'll take it. Plus it says a lot that these days the west's military strategies seem very poorly thought out and unsuccessful.

By the way, look at how many apnay we had in the army in ww2. It still didn't prevent us from losing a big chuck of Panjab did it?

Anyway, knock yourself out. I know it would only take one apna getting his legs blown off and seeing his mother going mental over it on TV (like Panjabans do) for most Sikhs to cool to the idea your pushing.

Go ahead.

and the military will teach people sikh values like disipline integirty character

Or it could turn Sikhs into brainless lemmings, more loyal to the 'union jack' than the 'Khanda'. Especially dimwitted ones, with narrow perspectives - so be careful.

In the end, what I'm saying might not be nice, but it's important stuff for brothers to consider when making a decision nonetheless.

We need to discuss things from multiple perspectives, not just one. That's plain unhealthy.

[VanHelsingh]

So I would say a big YES to the military. Even if Sikhs dont sign up for full-time service, there are lots of opportunities in the Territorial Army/Reserves and Cadet Forces. Also, there are the Police reserves or specials. These give the best of both worlds really... exposure to military/paramliitary training, but allow you do stay with your family and leaves you enough time to do your main job full-time.

Having said that, the whole military thing is not for everyone. As I said in my previous posts, there are numerous ways that we can inject martial living in our lives. Its down to the individual how they want to go about expressing that warrior side and nurturing it inside of them. However, one thing is for certain. If you do absolutely nothing and invest no time into it, dont be surprised if you crumble and melt in the face of high pressure or conflict. Warriors are forged through fire, not born.

Train hard, fight easy. Bruuuuuuuah

Very good point. I would consider the bit in bold to be the most realistic way of instilling a martial zest in young Sikhs. Although let's be honest, the kind of parents who will send their kids to Cadets / T.A. won't be the same parents who will educate their offspring on the Sikh cause or Sikh history. I could be wrong and there might be a convergence of the two groups in a 'Venn diagram' kind of way (lol) but I doubt it. It falls on the parents of what you'd call traditional Sikhs to change their own mindsets and stop viewing things such as the aforementioned cadets, etc., as typically "gorah" pursuits. This kind of thinking is passed onto the children, and they develop a sneering attitude to anything non-Panjabi / Sikh.

We must view institutions such as Cadets and T.A. as toolsets to help us develop and improve as a community and a faith. Basically youngsters won't get tough and savvy in the necessary areas by just hanging around at Panjabi school swapping stories about the past glories of others. They've got to get their hands dirty and work hard themselves and relinquish this belief that 'everything will be alright on the night' because we are the chosen warrior race.

Without wishing to offend anyone, I think our parchaaraks and religious leaders have a lot to answer for when it comes to informing us of Sikh glories. Whilst I completely believe that Guru Ji does aid us at our time of need, Sikhs seem to be under the assumption that is ALL we need to get things done. It definitely is not. We should be told about the hard work, the preparation, basically all the boring stuff that also contributed towards Sikh victories throughout history. Less romanticism and more pragmatism. It wasn't just a case of doing an Ardaas and hoping for the best.

In a modern context, I'm sure when most of us have been studying for exams we've asked that Waheguru bless us with success. Of course we don't solely rely on the Ardaas and forget the revision do we? I certainly haven't, but maybe I should have? :biggrin2:

[dalsingh101]

So, the general consensus on whether we can still be considered 'martial' seems to be a 'no' then?

[fightingsingh]

It says a lot that most of the people that have actually put their money where their mouth is for the community in the UK over the last few years weren't ex-soldier or police types, but rather people who were disparagingly referred to as 'street brawlers' earlier. Guys who drink, go to bars etc. and may not be angels. I'm not saying that people should mimic them, but acknowledgement of this truth is important.

Yes in the UK, I agree. Obviously we need to make a distinction between the level of threat in the UK and in India. In the UK, we were targeted by thugs on the street - either NF gangs or Pak gangs. To counter that, we just needed a group of rough and tough street fighters of our own. No military/police or martial arts experience necessary. All that is required is some balls and the willingness to use violence if required.

However, in India, when faced by military and paramilitary opponents, then the level of knowledge and expertise has to be upgraded to that level. We need ex-servicemen to organise and provide training and we need serving soldiers and/or police to provide information etc from the inside.

True about what you say about Brar, KPS Gill and other indoctrinated lap dogs. But there are countless examples of ex-military Sikhs who contributed to Sikh causes. From Kishan Singh Garrgaj of Babbar Akalis fighting against the British in the 1920s to General Subeg Singh, Satwant Singh and Beant Singh, General Labh Singh, Simranjit Singh Mann, Dilawar Singh Babbar and Bhai Rajoana. These type of guys may well be in a minority but they are an important contributing minority. If anything, this just demonstrates to me that Sikh organisations and jathebandian should be nurturing strong links with Sikhs in the military and trying to develop a certain influence over them so that they can be brought on board for Sikh causes.

Regarding the point about about Sikhs, World War Two and losing so much territory, I think that this a very complex area and a subject in itself. The reasons why we lost out in 1947 and why the Kharkoo movement failed from 1984-1995 is a very interesting debate and maybe one for another time. However, I certainly would not put that down to the fact that we had 'too many' Sikhs in the army.

The strong military presence can swing in either direction. It is a power base that must be tapped into and influenced. Take the World War Two example. We had all these 'indoctrinated' Sikhs fighting for Britain. But what of all the thousands of Sikhs who then switched sides and joined the INA and decided to fight against the British? Clearly something happened in their minds and they made the switch. What of the Sikhs in the military and police in 84... people like Rajoana and Beant Singh who had taken oaths to serve India but turned on their leaders and commanding officers?

There is clearly a downside to being in the military as you have explained. However, where else are you going to get firearms training? Where else are you going to learn the skills of modern warfare?

From the perspective of Sikh causes, I see the military purely as a training ground to learn military skills which may one day be useful for the Panth. It is also a tappable resource that can be infiltrated and influenced for our own agenda.

If we do not attempt to do this, then we only have ourselves to blame when the Sikhs in the military are unwilling or diinterested about coming on board for Panthic causes.

[hgsingh]

dalsingh101 you would become a puppet in the military cause you don't have mental strength

but a true sikh would know his duty is to be a saint soldier before anything else

sikhs should join the military for the training and experience as well as getting closer to becomming saint soldiers

dalsingh101 you want sikhs to have street cred like sikhs in vancouver who are high on drugs running around thinking their

gangsters and shooting eachother and selling drugs to other sikhs

sikhs need to be training in combat and joining the military

sikhs can become docters and go to a boxing gym or krav maga school and be in the military

what does getting educated have to do with being martial

you got to have brains to be martial to so get educated be successfull but also physically train

blacks in africa are martial and fight but stupid and not trying to be a racist

empires were built with brains and martial tradition

sikhs can enter the middle and upper class and have military training

[dalsingh101]

dalsingh101 you want sikhs to have street cred like sikhs in vancouver who are high on drugs running around thinking their

gangsters and shooting eachother and selling drugs to other sikhs

Sorry, but the fact that you've interpreted what I'm saying as the above is plain dumb.

Pick up on the nuances man.

[dalsingh101]

Before you read my comments, understand that I appreciate yours, they clearly emanate from someone who isn't simple minded and it is a pleasure to exchange with someone who has obviously given some thought to these matters and has many valid observations to make. Reading your posts has brought a few things sharply into focus for me regarding the direction in which we are heading. And although you've done an excellent job in conveying your opinion, I still disagree with many of them. So take what's written below as critical reflections. In the end, neither of us can claim to know the possible outcomes of various strategies with anything remotely approaching a strong degree of certainty.

Yes in the UK, I agree. Obviously we need to make a distinction between the level of threat in the UK and in India. In the UK, we were targeted by thugs on the street - either NF gangs or Pak gangs. To counter that, we just needed a group of rough and tough street fighters of our own.

Lets be frank, the fact that such people are dwindling leaves us open to a lot of abuse in the UK. And the cavalier way you describe the people who did have the balls to stand up, like it was minor thing says a lot. Especially when the lack of such people is very conspicuous now, as are certain problems we keep having from certain people. Problems that are deep, attacks on the very fabric/structure of our society. Which can't solely be defeated through physical means, though this has its place.

You bring into focus the different needs of our scattered Sikh communities in your post. It's true that my focus was probably on the UK and its issues. Although we are linked to our brethren back home, I still think the smart plan is to focus on solving your immediate problems and those in your vicinity rather than unrealistic overreaching. Just personally, regarding the problems in India, I don't know if all out war with India is a good idea. Lately I've felt that it would be much better for Sikhs to seek to influence other Indians with their culture, lifestyle - win them over so to speak. We know that forces over there have persistently maligned us, we need to reverse this. If there is a place where Sikh thinking (as exemplified by our Gurus, not today's Sikhs) is not only needed, but also has a natural home it is India. In short India needs to be a Sikh country, we need to spread and grow there and not confine the faith in the web of Panjab's agricultural issues.

The striking examples of all those wonderful exceptions, who bravely countered the general trend, starkly highlight one of the main underlying points about my arguments, that when you send large groups through any system/institutional set up like the army/police, the majority become drones and you're playing a dangerously unrealistic game if you think we can always rely on people like those iconic exceptions to balance things out. So whilst you might think the strategy you suggested may produce potential, independent minded/spirited warriors for our own cause - in reality, what you most likely would end up doing is creating a lemming horde. Whatever the idealistic, youthful opinion of brothers like hdsingh is, few people can resist the impact of socialisation/indoctrination - to overlook this is to be blind. Plus it is foolish to imagine that authorities watching any 'Sikh' military unit wouldn't keep a seriously close eye on what goes on amongst the ranks - they always have, and historically they've been pretty good at that stuff, especially with us. Influences which impart free thinking, belonging and loyalty to an outside group (which is what you are talking about) will be EXACTLY what authorities will be watching out for - and counteracting!

In any case, to undertake anything of significance (as you alluded to) depends largely on our cohesion and loyalty to each other and the idea of our being one community, our own patriotism if you like. But we are SO behind in this respect, that you know damn well that any big move we would make under the current situation would be beset by treachery and ambition by our own. That's what we really need to work on right now.

I guess a big difference between our thinking relates to India and whether it is time for all out war? This is where my thinking has changed of late. Seeing as the economy is rising and has so much potential, personally I feel that Sikhs should be getting poised to rinse that <banned word filter activated> out. If India thrives, our people are too shrewed not to profit from it and seeing as what most Sikhs really seem to want is a better lifestyle (lets be real here, truly religious impulses animate a minority of people's actions), I question their stomach for war. Genuinely, I feel that globally Sikhs may be on the cusp of affluence like they've never had before - whether the effect of this is positive or negative, who can tell? But if the UK is anything to go by, affluence with result in a even bigger decrease in 'martiality' (I think I made that word up...hehhehehe).

[VanHelsingh]

In any case, to undertake anything of significance (as you alluded to) depends largely on our cohesion and loyalty to each other and the idea of our being one community, our own patriotism if you like. But we are SO behind in this respect, that you know damn well that any big move we would make under the current situation would be beset by treachery and ambition by our own. That's what we really need to work on right now.

What the heck is the solution to this? I've wracked my brains (which didn't take too long, lol) but it's the one issue I can't find a solution to. It's a huge problem prevalent in the religious (on the surface) as well as the non-religious -- basically a huge issue for mankind as a whole. :biggrin2: