Japping Naam - How Important?

[Bijla Singh]

Vedas does talk about monotheistic concept of god as there are vedic mantars which have nirgun gyan for eg- OM (A U M - jagrath, saupoan, sukhopat and turiya bindi in between), soham, aham bhram asmi, tat twam asi.

Word AUM refers to trinity of Hinduism i.e. Vishnu, Brahma and Shiv who create, destroy and sustain the creation. This is not monotheistic. I agree Vedas have some element of truth but concept of God is monistic and sometimes pantheistic. Please study the difference between these. God is Upnishds is not personal, not actively involved in the world and without any attributes. Some mantras give completely pantheistic viewpoint of God making the creation an extension or body of God. In other words, they consider creation and the Creator equal and identical. This is against Gurmat. Sikh scholars and Hindu scholars fully endorse this viewpoint. Please see Daljeet Singh’s book on comparative mysticism, Shashi Bala’s book Concept of Monotheism, Dr. Rohi’s book on Monotheism and Dasgupta’s book on Indian Philosophy.

According to my understanding, kirtam names are those who have one or two attributes and it does not have nirgun gyan. Whilst there are many kirtam names in gurbani the following mantras are popular ones from gurbani which have nirgun gyan therefore its not "bhraminvaad" whatever that means if Sikh meditates on mantras within Gurbani.

Bhai Sahib, what do you mean by Nirgun gyan? At one point you say Nirgun is without attributes then you talk about Nirgun gyan. Two are contradictory. If Nirgun is devoid of any attributes then there is no gyan. All names of God are sacred and divine. I have no problem with any of the names.

After students take amrit and receive initial gurmantar and mool mantar..its no secret puratan samparda's such bhai dya singh and bhai dharam singh ji mahapursh in form of panj pyare mukhi based on need and case by case basis would advise students to mediate on mantras below within gurbani after students have taken amrit why? Because each and every student avastha are different... each and every mantra with nirgun gyan intertwines with different perceptions of the individual- some students perception is towards more sargun /less in nirgun in nature, some student perception is more sargun and nirgun both and some student perception is more soley towards gyan saroop of nirgun, based on individual avastha and perception mantras were given. This naam vidhi/jugti/meditating on various guru ghar mantars is been going on since bhai dya singh ji time. Bhai Dya singh himself as a mukhi of panj pyares used to do atam updesh give naam vidhi- mantars/jugti etc to sangat based on each and every student avastha.

Please provide any proof that Bhai Daya Singh Ji used to give different mantars. This is contrary to Gurmat. There is only one Gurmantar. Sampardas may do whatever they wish but it does not become Gurmat. Gurbani does not support meditation upon just any name. Bhai Gurdas Ji also rejects this practice. I rather believe him than any samparda that has no proof to substantiate their lineage. Everyone’s avastha is different but this does not change Gurmat at all. All are and must be given the same Gurmantar for meditation.

Para poorbla mantar- Satnam (I am aware satnaam generally is consider vishenan of gurmantar but not in all cases in Gurbani)

Please provide any proof.

Meditating on mantras above are only limited until ajap jap state or until dasam dwar state after that there is no jap nor there is shabad so we shouldn't be spending too much time discussing mantars but spending more time meditating on it (vahiguroo), mantar is carrier to take us to nirgun but not nirgun itself. Any mantar which has nirgun gyan its parvan in gurmat but shabad itself is not nirgun as shabad point us towards anubhav parkash of nirgun gyan as we discussed in the sargun and nirgun thread..!!

Your understanding of Nirgun and Sargun is wholly incongruent. Bhai Vir Singh, Bhai Randhir Singh, Subedar Baghel Singh and other gursikhs who have achieved union with Waheguru do not support your viewpoint. Bhai Vir Singh in his books (Guru Nanak Chamatkaar and others) states that as one meditates upon Gurmantar, he starts to acquire God-like attributes and eventually becomes one with God. Simran increases as spirituality increases. One remains absorbed in Naam forever. It never stops. I think those who claim otherwise are simply making empty claims without any proof from Gurbani.

We are talking about beant vahiguroo ji here, you want to put rules and regulations on vahiguroo ji here and confine vahiguroo ji in special mantar thats up to you singh but i rather not..!!

You still did not provide any proof from Gurbani. So you are stating that gursikhs like Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Vir Singh and rehatnamas are wrong? Is Gurbani wrong to clearly give an injunction to meditate upon Gurmantar and not any other mantar? How can we call ourselves Sikhs and not follow Gurbani at the same time? Do you consider sampardas above Gurbani and Vaars?

Please read some books by Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji. No one can convince you but yourself. Guru Rakha

[N30S1NGH]

Singh Sahib Ji,

I cannot further go on the debate based on the premises that other party does not believe - a) other guru ghar mantars ( which have gyan of nirgun in other words realization of nirgun) have *power* to provide one's unity with Vahiguroo b) does not beleive in multiple interpretation in gurbani as per samparda so so much so now gur shabad is consider automatically refer to gurmantar. One cannot discuss things with one dimensional thought process. Its best agree to disagree like we have in the past.

I have respect for bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji but just like how other singhs from other side of spectrum beleive sampardaie gyani mahapursh such as sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale see gurmat through vedantic lense. We also feel the same way where bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji looked at Gurmat through revisionist sikhi lense which has imprints just imprints not all just imprints influence from bhasuar and thats well known quite evident fact among sampardaie scholars. But with that being said, the influence from bhasuar does not any take anything away from bhai sahib bhai randhir singh bhagti and at the end departure to sachkhand. Off course, i m talking more about his theological work than his personal spiritual life..!!. So yea just to clarify i totally beleif- bhai sahib ji spiritual life was tyaagi bairaagi and at the end he went to sachkhand but that does not mean i have to agree with his theological work. May be he never meant to do any theological work on Gurmat but it was branded that way or simply just couldn't get the full view of gurmat theology-just like there are many mahapursh come to do seva of sikhi and are sachkhand vasi but their theological work may not be par with pure Gurmat thought...but at the end of day his lack of having full view of gurmat theology- does not take anything away from sachkhand vasi mahapursh as bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji.!!

Bhai Vir Singh Ji didn't had much bhagti compare to bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji but his theological work on sikhi is pretty good compare with bhai sahib ji but at the end i think bhagti which matters at the end of day thats the reason i recently quit studying theology of sikhi...advise to you- focus more on bhagti than theology- leave the dirty work to fight rss to some next guy..!!

[Bijla Singh]

Bhai Sahib, the discussion can only proceed further if Gurbani is discussed and quoted rather than certain samparda practices. Gurmat’s foundation is Gurbani not sampardas. Gurbani principles are united together and are not at variance.

a) other guru ghar mantars ( which have gyan of nirgun in other words realization of nirgun) have *power* to provide one's unity with Vahiguroo

Why is Gurmantar given then? Why doesn’t Gurbani just give the option to pick and choose any mantar? In this case, do you not think it becomes a path of manmat rather than Gurmat? Gurmat implies following Hukam of Guru after surrendering mind. Manmat implies following what mind says.

b) does not beleive in multiple interpretation in gurbani as per samparda so so much so now gur shabad is consider automatically refer to gurmantar.

As long as multiple interpretations do not contradict rest of Gurbani, they are fine. Gur Ka Shabad or Naam is a singular noun. Hence, it cannot refer to multiple mantars or the entire Gurbani. In all sampardas and other religious cults and sects only one particular mantar is given at the time of initiation. What kind of a path lets the devotee decide to pick a mantar that he finds or likes best? Guru knows better and more. This is why He gives us the mantar.

but at the end of day his lack of having full view of gurmat theology- does not take anything away from sachkhand vasi mahapursh as bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji.!!

Bhai Randhir Singh did not write much on theology. His books deal with philosophy. But do you care to provide any evidence that shows his “lackness”.

Bhai Vir Singh Ji didn't had much bhagti compare to bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji

By which thermometer did you measure this? Books of Bhai Vir Singh show how much bhagtee he had and surely he was one with Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib Himself gave him darshan and told him to write teeka on Gurbani. Both are respected gursikhs but I rather not compare their works. All I can say is both AKJ and Taksal compare their mahapurash to Bhai Vir Singh. Guru Rakha

[osingh]

Veer N30Singh jee,

Waheguru jee kaa khalsa, Waheguru jee kee fateh!

It is disappointing that you feel the need to attack Jatha in your posts. What wrong have they done to you?

Quote:

"simran which supposed to be full with emotions- loving/vahiguroo guru sahib di yaad vich/bairaag ch/vahiguroo milaap ch (pure sufism style love) is been reduced to robotic systematic simran without any emotions where mindset is more concerned about getting small kicks by hyper ventilating during simran,"

Are you antarjamee? How do you know that those japping naam with this vidhee do not have prem, vairaag? I guess only those from Samparda/Taksal have prem and vairaag in simran. Your writings are clearly biased.

Who are we to judge whether another Gursikh is not doing Naam Japp with prem or vairaag. Prem and vairaag are vital for japping naam whether we are doing simran saas giraas, surti, hirda, nabhi e.t.c.

Bhai sahib and countless other Gursikhs japped naam saas-giraas and reached high levels of spirituality. From the outside it may have looked that bhai sahib and other Gurmukh pyare were just doing some "robotic systematic simran" but we cannot see the khel inside the hirda of these mahapurakhs.

If a Gursikh is not japping naam with prem, vairaag e.t.c. that is there individual shortcoming and not the fault of Jatha.

Veer jee, daas can guarantee that Jatha has not reduced simran to robotic practice. A serious Gursikh from Jatha will definitely japp naam with prem, shardha, dhyaan, especially if they have read bhai sahibs books. Daas can guarantee that many Jatha Gursikhs are japping naam in sangat form at amritvela with pyaar and vairaag. There is no need to worry. If you have doubts maybe you should ask Jatha Gursikhs directly if they have prem inside when they are japping naam.

What is important is that Jatha is not forcing anyone else to japp naam saas-giraas. One may japp Naam how they please. Jatha however considers the vidhee given by panj piare to be fundamental to japping naam that is all. If anyone does not agree with this that is fine and they can continue to japp naam as they wish.

Even if Gursikhs are japping naam in robotic style at least they are japping naam! May Guru Sahib do bakshish and bless Gursikhs from all Sampardas/Taksals/Jathebandis to japp naam with pyaar, shardha and vairaag. Satguru Kirpa Karan!

[N30S1NGH]

Osingh ji,

If you read my post carefully i m pointed out hypocrisy, robotic recitation of naam, gurbani,robotic self reflection without any emotions/prem or stages in the hand. I am trying to follow foot steps of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj who has clearly said in the sri akaal ustat sahib- prem and naam simran with prem is shraist. If following the foot steps if i am pissing off over zealous chelas of all jatha's and samparda's so be it. I am pointed out hypocrisy/robotic gurbani recitation or idolizing certain gyan/idiolizing sargun image and wrapping their head around it which shared by mindset effected sikhs from all jatha's and samparda's hence my 3rd post in this thread:

I will re-quote my post again"

~~ Sach Kahon Sun leho Sabhe ~~

~~Jin Prem Kiyo Tin Prabh Payo ~~

Guru maharaj declared Prem is shraist(highest) out of all read whole couplet, if there is no prem there is nothing, all the technicalities in meditation...pretty much like doing simran like a robot without any emotions which can be further broken down to:

- forcing dhyan without emotions/prem

- forcing smadhi through bibek buddhi on your own real self with out emotions (prem/bairaag)

- some claim we are sargun vaddis without prem

- some claim we are nirgun vaddis without prem

- some claim we are shabad upasakhs without prem

- some doing simran with hyperventilation without prem.

- some doing simran robotically (without prem) idiolzing shabad(vahiguroo) without emotions

- some doing jap of 150000 mool mantar without prem

- some holding chailsa doing patt without prem

- some doing simran with mala without prem

- some doing simran robotically (without prem) listening to anhad shabad - getting hooked on it for own selfish tripti(satisfaction) getting stuck in anand mandal(realm) thinking thats the higher reality.

- some stuck at dasam dvar listening to sounds/naad without prem, thinking thats higher reality.

So please stop with your patronizing techniques and make me some sort of villian via guilt trips- i even gave credit where its due provided bairaagi kirtan by gyani amalok singh ji akj with baba mohinder singh ji in the first intial post- did u get to listen to it?. I am hated by over zealous chelas of all jatha/ samparda- right hate me, left hate me, center they find me too sour. Maharaj bless me with seva of pointing out hypocrisy and poiting out beautiful sargun rituals/naam simran turned into dogma..i will continue to do the seva of bring awareness in these types of under the carpet issues. I am used to with intimidation tactics by self righteous over zealous chelas from all jatha's and samparda's got many threats in the past. I take these threats as pinch of salt.

[osingh]

No matter what, without bhari (heavy) abhiyaas of naam and simran we cannot achieve our spiritual goals. Prem is not the only factor in simran and bhagti. Along with bhagti we need to have a good jeevan in which we abstain from sins and live an honest life. We need to follow bachans of Guru Sahib including Rehit.

We need to make the effort to do simran and paath. Without heavy abhiyaas we cannot build the prem required for bhagti. Dhiyaan (concentration) is another important factor in simran. We must listen to the dhuni (sound) of Naam with great concentration.

Once a Gursikh realises that one has to do paath with prem, shardha, dhiyaan e.t.c. then they will make faster spiritual progress.

Many of us will not have the prem required for bhagti . Therefore we must indulge in Gurbanee Paath, Kirtan and Simran to increase our prem, vairaag and shardha.

Satguru Mehar Karan.

[N30S1NGH]

osingh, thats good post. I have nothing against what you have written above. My posts in this thread does agree with things that you have mentioned above except for the fact when you mentioned- only naam simran is allowed can invoke pyar and katha cannot.

I understand this topic is to do with naam simran. But its also related to katha and naam simran as well. There is quite of diversity in the panth itself regarding that- you have substantial 80% of sikhs who listens to katha which invokes devotion/prem regarding guru sahib then slowly moving on to naam simran but then there is small marginal amount of singhs who are simply doing raw naam simran. You have mindset in sikhs who have turned katha into dogma in their lives equally you have mindset in sikhs who have turned naam simran into robotic naam simran without any emotions/or stages in mind (baikhari, madhma, para, pasanti).

Both Katha and Naam simran are parvan in Gurmat. As long one mindset does not start doing khandan-mandan of other mindset. The only issue is we made this difference attached to jatha maryada or samparda maryada and we started doing khandan mandan. I think thats where the problem lies. This has more to do with that personal human level where different sikhs at different stages according to the need listens to katha first or go straight to naam simran. One should not be restricted with jatha or samparda's boundaries but according to inner need...start whatever it works for you but whatever you do - don't turn into dogma which is condemned in guru sahib bani- sri akaal ustat - updesh to everyone including sikhs..!!

Bijla Singh,

I will respond to your post later on today or tom.

[N30S1NGH]

Bhai Sahib, the discussion can only proceed further if Gurbani is discussed and quoted rather than certain samparda practices. Gurmat’s foundation is Gurbani not sampardas. Gurbani principles are united together and are not at variance.

Fair enough singh- that what i posted earlier different types of gurghar mantars from gurbani itself. I will just post one shabad below. I cannot spend too much time on this thread anymore i think we have gracefully have discussed things again, lets the reader decide.

In shabad below- beej mantra is consider - Ongkar

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥

The Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, is spiritual wisdom for everyone.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਜਪੈ ਕੋਊ ਨਾਮੁ ॥

Anyone, from any class, may chant the Naam.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥

Whoever chants it, is emancipated.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥

And yet, rare are those who attain it, in the Company of the Holy.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਉਰ ਧਾਰੈ ॥

By His Grace, He enshrines it within.

ਪਸੁ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਮੁਘਦ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਤਾਰੈ ॥

Even beasts, ghosts and the stone-hearted are saved.

ਸਰਬ ਰੋਗ ਕਾ ਅਉਖਦੁ ਨਾਮੁ ॥

The Naam is the panacea, the remedy to cure all ills.

ਕਲਿਆਣ ਰੂਪ ਮੰਗਲ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਮ ॥

Singing the Glory of God is the embodiment of bliss and emancipation.

ਕਾਹੂ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਧਰਮਿ ॥

It cannot be obtained by any religious rituals.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮਿ ॥੫॥

O Nanak, he alone obtains it, whose karma is so pre-ordained. ||5||

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਲੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਹੈ ॥

Beej Manthra Lai Hiradhai Rehai ||

बीज मंत्रु लै हिरदै रहै ॥

He takes the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, and keeps it in his heart.

41844 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਭ. ਬੇਣੀ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੨

Raag Raamkali

ਮਨੂਆ ਉਲਟਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਮਹਿ ਗਹੈ ॥੫॥

Manooaa Oulatt Sunn Mehi Gehai ||5||

मनूआ उलटि सुंन महि गहै ॥५॥

Turning his mind away from the world, he focuses on the cosmic void of the absolute Lord. ||5||

41845 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਭ. ਬੇਣੀ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੩

Raag Raamkali

Bij Mantar is ongkar because bij means root. Maharaj gives indiction here regardig ongkar:

Pirthame On(g)kar So Dhun Poran Jagat Mae Raha ||

Fist ongkar was recited and that resosance created world and give nourishment to this world. (Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth Sahib)

Ongkar aad kathni anad, Khal Khand Khyal Gurbar Akaal ||

When the Primal Being, reflected within Himself and visualized his own form, He uttered the word OANKAR, because of which the earth, the sky and the whole world was created.'

(Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1340)

Why is Gurmantar given then? Why doesn’t Gurbani just give the option to pick and choose any mantar? In this case, do you not think it becomes a path of manmat rather than Gurmat? Gurmat implies following Hukam of Guru after surrendering mind. Manmat implies following what mind says.

Gurmantar has symoblic meaning that you made yourself - guru wala. Hence, received gurmantar. I totally agree Vahiguroo is supreme mantar. I personally do jaap of vahiguroo as well. But with that being said, there are other guru ghar mantars which sikhs in the past have jaap in stages. That does not take anything away from Gurmantar itself nor its manmat (how could reciting mantar from gurbani be manmat- if you think its manmat- please give me sukha and building to jump..lol..its too much)..anyway, there are many sakhiyas of gurmukhs doing jaap of ongkar or ikongkar. There are sakhiyas in the panth for example- sant sunder singh bhindranwale did 125,000 mool mantar jaap and dhuni start running inside with that jaap.

I think you may have misconception that dhuni which one hears- has to be and it is vahiguroo dhuni. If thats what you think? thats your road-block right there. It's not about whats there in dhun mandal intially, its about what you recite. Whichever mantar you recite thats what you will hear intially but further in the stage its resosance with ongkar as maharaj says:

Pirthame On(g)kar So Dhun Poran Jagat Mae Raha ||

Fist ongkar was recited and that resosance created world and give nourishment to this world. (Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Jaap sahib, Dasam Granth Sahib)

What kind of a path lets the devotee decide to pick a mantar that he finds or likes best? Guru knows better and more. This is why He gives us the mantar.

Dude you are hearing yourself? We are talking about mantars from gurbani here, not mantars received from satan or satan book. Yes same gurbani- A G A M A G A DH B O D H

And we wonder- why kirpa is not happening? Duh..we discriminate between guru ghar mantars within gurbani just to make sure branded gurmat naam philosphy does not fall apart to claim supremacy or fight some imaginary rss.

By which thermometer did you measure this? Books of Bhai Vir Singh show how much bhagtee he had and surely he was one with Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib Himself gave him darshan and told him to write teeka on Gurbani. Both are respected gursikhs but I rather not compare their works. All I can say is both AKJ and Taksal compare their mahapurash to Bhai Vir Singh. Guru Rakha

I am sorry thats not my view. AKJ beleives he ate meat and committed manmat of eating meat all his life, so never went to sachkhand cannot be iota close to bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji.

I personally beleif he made some mistakes thats normal but at the end despite he ate meat or not he went to sachkhand.

At the end, i m the last one to do any khandan mandan of vahiguroo mantar. It's great mantar after all it has all the previous avtars and their kamiya including our guru sahib and final binded seal approval by satguru nanak dev ji maharaj, its not only great mantra but great missionary tool as well..but with that being said, there is no restriction for any sikh to jaap of any mantars within gurbani depending on each state of an sikh. After all in gurmat, more emphasis is actually put how you actually naam jaap and emotions behind it, perception behind it, prem/sharda behind it not so much so wrapping your head around khas mantar as maharaj clearly did khandan. Maharaj did not do khandan of gurmantar itself but khandan of individual mindset/perception of making it so so mantar as khas so so much they made it into dogma by wrapping their head around it instead of "actually jaaping on the mantar itself with emotions", besides on higher realm there is no this is my mantar or yours, its paratma ongkar dhuni resosance as maharaj stated above.!!!!!

[Bijla Singh]

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥

There is no indication of Beej Mantar being Oangkaar. Since Beej Mantar is for everyone, it must be Gurmantar because next pankti talks about Naam which is a singular noun. Since Naam is obtained from Satguru, it has to be Gurmantar. But I have nothing against one meditating upon Oangkaar or any Shabad of Gurbani. It is according to Gurmat.

That does not take anything away from Gurmantar itself nor its manmat (how could reciting mantar from gurbani be manmat- if you think its manmat

Bhai Sahib, I stated that it is manmat to believe that Gurbani gives option to pick and choose. If one chooses to practice a particular word of an entire shabad then he is practicing Gurbani. That is fine but it cannot be called Gurmantar. Practicing Gurbani and calling it Gurmantar is not correct. That’s all I am asserting.

Dude you are hearing yourself? We are talking about mantars from gurbani here, not mantars received from satan or satan book. Yes same gurbani- A G A M A G A DH B O D H

But initially you did not distinguish between Gurmantar and mantar of Vedas. This is why I made that statement. Mantars of Vedas are far inferior to Gurbani. I do not say one word of Gurbani is superior to another. All words of Gurbani are equal. However, one word is specifically called Gurmantar. Hence, rest of Gurbani is not a mantar. Any word can be picked for meditation but not in the place of Gurmantar. One can do jaap of any shabad but Guru Sahib’s Hukam is to recite Gurmantar (Naam) in Amrit Vela. It is a Hukam of Gurbani. No other mantar should be recited in its place.

I am sorry thats not my view. AKJ beleives he ate meat and committed manmat of eating meat all his life, so never went to sachkhand cannot be iota close to bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji.

I haven’t read any official AKJ stance on it but in Gurmukh Jeevan I do not recall anywhere him eating meat. Nonetheless, eating meat does not prove that he had less bhagtee. Wouldn’t you agree? Let’s leave speculations out. All I know is he was a great gursikh.

Bhai Sahib, the discussion was specifically about Ved mantras versus Gurmantar. In this post I only tried to clarify that I fully agree with you on one practicing Gurbani and picking any shabad for that matter as long as the intent is not to replace Gurmantar. Missionaries these days call the entire Gurbani Gurmantar and we need to be cautious about it because they are trying to eliminate Naam japp and Amrit Vela. Also, it will eliminate Panj Pyare giving Gurmantar. Guru Rakha

[luckysingh99]

During amrit sanchar, do panj pyare give different gurmantars to recite ?