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And So The Kumbh Mela Begins


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Gurbani is clear what the true pilgrimage for a Sikh is. But on the flip side, the kumbh mela is a spectaular event and we should use the opportunity to do parchar of Gurmat and bring the people that

I don't know why khande batta da amrit is being compared as amrit water to sarowar water. Two completely different things!! Firstly, the khande batta da amrit can only be if the 'panj' are present.

That water is blessed, which has been put on this Earth by God. It is the affair of men to decide which water is holy and which is not.

Only five, what's this bakwas about closing your accounts? What sense does that make? And what's this fight between n3o and onlyfive. I agree with only five that it is really ignorant to compare Amritsar to Ganga. But only five sounds really childish calling names and fighting. Singhs and Singhnis need a cold shower stat!

If both accounts are closed, then the sangat here can have a more learning experience. I see many are fustrated at our post, which cause conflicts. So the best thing to do is close both accounts. Putting us on mod control won't help.

I will never agree with n30 on many issues, however I step out of my views and do see his side of the argument. But don't agree with it because it attacks Sikhi and he does not present the whole story. If he has nothing to hide then he should present the whole story and be able to see all sides. But he is unable to do this and this makes him very arrogant. Hence why i say he is no better than Darshan Ragi or Dhunda. Darshan Ragi and Dhunda use the same tactics to play with sangats emotions. n3o chooses to call other members paranoid. Look how many members came forward to say I talk about this character behind his back. NOT ONE! Everything i have said to one member through pm has been said to n30 through threads. If that member wants to come forward that is his choice. Knowing n30 i say he shouldn't because n30 would target that member.

So who is paranoid here? The person who has no problem leaving this forum, or that person who thinks everyone is after him and believes hes on some kind of mission to spread his take on religion because God gave him a gift?

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Why do some have a problem with Yogi Bhajan ??

I am no follower, but at the end of the day he did more than I could ever do !

He made over 130,000 pure sikhs out of hippies and new age travellers.... (Pure= Full amritdhari sikhs)- There is not even a single person now that can make half the number of monai or sehjdhari into Full Amritdhari sikhs is there ??

I really couldn't care less if 3ho followers keep an idol of sri chand outside their gurdwara, or if they participate in fire ceremonies!!

We should look at the positive and gurmat eminating from such people and stop this judging.

YES- ALL WATER IS HOLY !!!

Water is as essential as air for our survival.

Did God not use air and water to create this creation ?

If we had a serious water famine, then a person would get to such a state where nothing else would matter- NO other food or liquid except WATER. The water woould be the ONLY need and the person would be willing to do anything, absolutely anything.

Should we not be thankful for the water provided to us from every single source possible ??

Sherdil and N30 ji, you make a very valid point that only a few of us can appreciate and realise.

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I m not yogi bhajan follower. But his blunt speech/his life/his dedication of bringing sikhi to west does inspire me, my respect for yogi is same respect as baba nihal singh ji respect for him, sant jarnail singh bhindranwale respect for him, amar shahid bhai fauja singh ji akj respect for him.

Sant Baba Nihal Singh ji didn't respect him, Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa didn't either and neither did Bhai Sahib Fauja Singh ji. Your friend Hari Singh Randhawa dropped that Daljit Singh Nirmala in a split second once Hari Singh found out that he was bowing at hindus feets. Hari Singh Randhawa can't even be the dust of these Singhs feets and you think for a second anyone of them would respect Yogi Bhajan who took part in idol worship and believed Kundalini yoga is the key to uniting with Akal Purakh?

Get a life. Like seriously, there is more to life than sitting on a forum 24/7 and brainwashing the Sikh youth. How can you call Darshan Ragi or Dhunda bad, when you are no better than these guys?

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N30 SINGH Jee,

I am afraid this has got nothing to do with being pendu, or things flying out of heart or mind or anywhere else, or the use of etiquette, or dressing up words, wavelengths, age, experience, threats, beating around any bush, spin, and perception. I have tried to be as simple and straightforward as possible, in my explanation. You appear to be taking this very personally and I get a feeling you are angry and emotional like a wounded tiger.

It is to do with two words which are Sach, and Gurmat. Gurujees preach on omnipotence does not conflict with, and negate the fact, that Gurbani transforms jal into Amrit and this must never be compared to any other water, because Amrit takes things to another level. Rather than worry whether what you say is clear cut enough for anyone to understand, rather, worry than no matter how much others try, it seems it is never clear cut enough for you, to get the point which then draws you into lengthy and unnecessary quarrels with others.

As Sikhs we do not tell other people our water is holier than theirs. Hence, I have no idea where you picked up that point. As Sikhs we focus on the mystical magic, mystery and mastery of Amrit upon our lives and accept that Gurbani is so powerful that Gurbani transforms water into Amrit. The issue is not one of holiness but of Guru Maharajs kirpa through Gurbanee.

On the other hand, as much as we are a tolerant nation of saint soldiers, we do not claim that our water is holier than anybody's, but, maintain that no water from anywhere, can be compared to Amrit. That is why in Tat Gurmat, we do not recognise tiraths and kumbh melas as Sikh practises. However, by tradition, Sikhs have sometimes used the occasion of such gatherings to do Sikhi parchar, but as I said, there are probably much better avenues through other ways now.

Also it is important that one sticks to ones words. You declared earlier that you have nothing else to say on this topic. Then you need to stay out from any further urge to keep discussing because I have not said anything new, but reiterated in my own words, what others have already pointed out and cautioned earlier, which you have already read.

I would again, humbly advice you to relax and not get so intense to have the need to debate and rebut, but to give yourself time to take in others advice.

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Humkire, i do admit i have to reply right away as i have to vehemently defend myself against false accusations against me that i m comparing water in khanda batta da amrit with ganga water. I have mentioned sarovar- water and other ethahisk gurdwaras sarovar for sikhs and ganga for hindus in the same sentence and its not the first time - bijla singh has done the same so that sikhs can think outside of box- http://www.searchsikhism.com/bipran.html

No where i have mentioned khanda batta da amrit. I sincerely ask you to refrain from false accusations and refrain from blow things out of proparations re-read my post in proper context than putting words in my mouth.

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I really couldn't care less if 3ho followers keep an idol of sri chand outside their gurdwara, or if they participate in fire ceremonies!!

When did a Gurdwara ever start getting owned by someone? Gurdwaras belong to Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. No one, Not Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Maharaj, not Sant Baba Nihal Singh ji, not Sant Baba Isher Singh ji own any Gurdwara, no mona, no 3ho member can own a Gurdwara.

Our community are slaves to this illogical thinking. Take Satguru out of the Gurdwara and now you can't even call it a Gurdwara anymore. By stating the above you are saying Satguru can be owned. Singh, please, please think deeper before writing.

A lot of progress needs to be made in the Panth, but turning a blind eye to those who are teaching wrong teachings to the wider community must not go undressed. We all can agree that idol worship is not allowed at Gurdwaras, but how come people turn a blind eye to it when white Sikhs are doing it. Plant your feet on the side of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj and with no jatha.

I have said this before we Sikhs don't owe anything to any so called holy person. If the holy person puts a person on the Guru's path and does not teach his own manmat. Then we owe him everything. Saying Yogi Bhajan did this and that is foolish because at the end he did it for himself and for his teachings. Yogi Bhajan did not do it for Sikhi. He used emotional blackmail and misused Satguru's identity to spread his own manmat. Yogi Bhajan has done more damage to Sikhi than actually helping Sikhi to spread around the world. He was a disease in the Khalsa Panth. Because of his manmat teachings disguised as Sikhi the future is already looking very bad for Sikhs. Satguru pulled people out of....yoga is the key to reaching God and idol worship is wrong......and yogi Bhajan brought these back in.

Actually do your research before commenting either way. This issue with the Yogi Bhajan cult is not clear cut. There are many secrets that have come out because ex-3ho members are speaking about them. Photos and videos that show the deep rooted manmat teachings of yogi Bhajan have also come out. Again conduct your own research on this and decide for yourself.

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Humkire Ji- I have a very genuine questions. Please if you can answer them...I will revise my position and redact my statement earlier as i have no issue learning from other members who can clear doubts and thats how we learn and grow in sangat:

a) If water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then whats the symbolism behind stiring the water with khanda, while bani is recited?

b) If water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then whats the symbolism behind recting gurbanis again to purify given the fact- water from sarovar already purified or turned into amrit as gurbani is being sung and recited on speakers?

c) If general perception is water itself in sarovar is holy and very very sacred as gurbani is being sung in the background, then whats the thought process behind having filtration system installed in the sarovar at the first place?

d) if water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then how come we don't have maryada of getting the same water from sarovar and using it in preparation for khanda da amrit?

e) is there any contradiction when i state- devotion is two way street and if individual have faithless, devotionless, cynism type of sheild around them that same water in sarovar cannot have its effect not because it does not have capability but because individual have shield around them?

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Humkire Ji- I have a very genuine question. Please if you can answer them...I will revise my position and redact my statement earlier as i have no issue learning from other members who can clear doubts and thats how we learn and grow in sangat:

a) If water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then whats the symbolism behind stiring the water with khanda, while bani is recited?

b) If water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then whats they symbolism behind recting gurbanis again to purify given the fact- water from sarovar already purified or turned into amrit as gurbani is being sung and recited on speakers?

c) If general perception is water itself in sarovar is holy and very very sacred as gurbani is being sung in the background, then whats the thought process behind having filtration system installed in the sarovar at the first place?

d) if water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then how come we don't have maryada of getting the same water from sarovar and using it in preparation for khanda da amrit?

e) is there any contradiction when i state- devotion is two way street and if individual have faithless, devotionless, cynism type of sheild around them that same water in sarovar cannot have its effect not because it does not have capability but because individual have shield around them?

Great points. I can't believe I'm agreeing with you on this thread. Lol.

Humkire alluded to the omnipresence of God in Jale Hari Thale Hari.

If God is in water, then why do you need to bless it? Isn't it already blessed by His presence?

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Humkire Ji- I have a very genuine question. Please if you can answer them...I will revise my position and redact my statement earlier as i have no issue learning from other members who can clear doubts and thats how we learn and grow in sangat:

a) If water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then whats the symbolism behind stiring the water with khanda, while bani is recited?

b) If water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then whats they symbolism behind recting gurbanis again to purify given the fact- water from sarovar already purified or turned into amrit as gurbani is being sung and recited on speakers?

c) If general perception is water itself in sarovar is holy and very very sacred as gurbani is being sung in the background, then whats the thought process behind having filtration system installed in the sarovar at the first place?

d) if water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then how come we don't have maryada of getting the same water from sarovar and using it in preparation for khanda da amrit?

e) is there any contradiction when i state- devotion is two way street and if individual have faithless, devotionless, cynism type of sheild around them that same water in sarovar cannot have its effect not because it does not have capability but because individual have shield around them?

To the point as usual :)

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So what your saying is i need a better marketing scheme. Maybe you can ask you know who for me......lol

I'll work on being nicer, but i won't promise anything for that one member. Only if he stops spreading his idol worship manmat, which his Guru Yogi Bhajan taught and told him to spread. Then we can get along.

I guess, lol. There's no need to always be "on the attack" as it were. Some people just want to get along and learn. If we can't co-operate and be cordial amongst fellow Sikhs then what chance do we have of ever convincing non-Sikhs that Sikhi is a decent way of living. Our ire should be reserved for those who intentionally sow seeds of discord; not those who are forming ideas and opinions and occasionally make mistakes along the way. Sure, you've got to set people straight on the odd occasion, especially if you're being misrepresented etc.

One thing that I've learnt to work on is to never hold a grudge. If anyone knows me, for me to even entertain this notion as recently as 2 or so years ago is an absolute miracle. But if you walk on this path that kind of "mellow" thinking automatically begins to come to the individual. That doesn't mean we should become hippy walk-overs, but we should learn to not burn our insides with boiling rage at past events. Always look to make bridges with those that feel the same.

Of course there are some unforgivable things that can never be forgotten so easily. But on forums like these there's never any reason for things to get deadly personal.

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Dear N30 Jee,

You have somehow misunderstood me to mean that the jal of the sarowar around Harmandir Sahib is the same as Khande Batte da Amrit. They are not. Traditionally, Sikhs out of respect, loosely call the jal of the the sarowar around Harmandir Sahib amrit, the way we also call that jal which is prepared at the birth of a Sikh child, amrit. This is however at a different level from Khande Batte da Amrit. Anyway the answers to your questions are as follows;

Question a)If water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then whats the symbolism behind stiring the water with khanda, while bani is recited?

Answer: No one has suggested amritsar sarovar and khande batte da amrit i.e Amrit Pahul are the same. However sarovar water around harmandir sahib has always been held sacred because of Gurbani being sung at Harmandir Sahib. No water at any tirath is comparable to this.

Question b)If water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then whats the symbolism behind recting gurbanis again to purify given the fact- water from sarovar already purified or turned into amrit as gurbani is being sung and recited on speakers?

Answer: As I have explained above, they are not the same and do not hold the same significance. You should know already that the Amrit Pahul ceremony involving the preparation and administering of Khande Batte da Amrit by the Panj Pyaras,is the Birth Hub of the Khalsa, and is far more than just holifying water. It goes beyond symbolism and is in fact a special Act of Gurus Grace on an ablakhee.

Question c) If general perception is water itself in sarovar is holy and very very sacred as gurbani is being sung in the background, then whats the thought process behind having filtration system installed in the sarovar at the first place?

Answer: Firstly this is beyond perception but a fact, and secondly, having a system to rid the jal of bird droppings and other dirt does not make it any less sacred.

Question d) if water from sarovar (not just amritsar sarovar but any gurdwara sarovar) holds a same significance as water in khanda batta da amrit then how come we don't have maryada of getting the same water from sarovar and using it in preparation for khanda da amrit?

Answer: As I have answered above the two are not comparable.

Question e) is there any contradiction when i state- devotion is two way street and if individual have faithless, devotionless, cynism type of sheild around them that same water in sarovar cannot have its effect not because it does not have capability but because individual have shield around them?

Answer: Whether or not a person has sharda does not negate the fact that as a rule of the thumb, as Sikhs we hold the sarowar around Harmandir Sahib to be blessed by the kirtan. No sheild of an athiest or faithless person is strong enough before the power of God, and there are many many miracles told and untold, how the wavering faith of a faithless person has been rejuvenated by a visit to Harmandir Sahib.

As I have mentioned, a dip in the sarowar is part of a bigger picture for Sikhs, to go to Amritsar, stay at Harmandir Sahib for a few days, have dips in the sarowar, listen to precious Gurbani and to come back thoroughly rejuvenated and blessed. No tirath visits can or should be made comparable to this.

The issue of Amrit has come up because Sherdil mentioned that all water is blessed, but it is up to men to decide which is holy and which is not. However, the act of transforming water into Khande Batte da Amrit which is beyond even holy is not an act that was initiated by man but by God/Guru. Gods Presence is in us, but we have to surrender our life to Gurujee to let that Presence illumine us. Gods Presence is in us but it is through swaas swaas simran that we will experience this Presence.

My humble advice whether to you are anyone else is no matter what your perception is, please, please, please do not compare visiting Harmandir Sahib and having a dip at the sarowar at Harmandir Sahib, to be akin or anywhere near to a Hindu going to a Kumbh Mela or Tirath. Gurujee has not given us something that is already ordinarily available at the 68 Hindu Tiraths, but through Sikhi and through Khande Batte da Amrit given us something we should be far more awed about, than the picture of a few million Hindus bathing away at a river in the wrong belief it will wash away their sins and purify them. Such pictures may look awesome to some but for a Gurmukh who knows Guru jees teachings about ath sath tirath, such pictures are meaningless, and only make us thank God that we have the truth through Sikhi. This does not make us arrogant but humbled.

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