Bhagat Jaidev ji : sudarshan chakra kirya meditation

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

GurdeepSinghJohal ji,

I have enjoyed and learnt quite alot with our interactions in the last few weeks and I very much respect your views,attitude and knowledge.

However, I must say as a little warning that I myself have fallen for the single pangthi and one-liners from shabads and ended up with completely wrong messages!

I have learnt that it is important to quote and look at the whole shabad and especially the 'Rahao' pangthi to get the true essence and message of the shabad.

Quite often the one-liners can mislead us quite easily and then we find some other shabad that is contradicting the one liner, we look at it closely and realise that we were barking up the wrong tree !!!

No offence and no hard feelings paaji !

Just a piece of advice that I myself learned the hard way !!

That one single line is supported by last line I have searched skies and have not found any one like Lord. If you have Lord with you you don't need yoga, but his hukam to get liberated. And first line is simple my dear I have not used yoga techniques to control mind. I can't help. Thanks for your warning.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

ਕਿਨਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥

Kinehee Keeaa Paravirath Pasaaraa ||

Some make a big show of their worldly influence.

ਕਿਨਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਪੂਜਾ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ ॥

Kinehee Keeaa Poojaa Bisathhaaraa ||

Some make a big show of devotional worship.

ਕਿਨਹੀ ਨਿਵਲ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥

Kinehee Nival Bhueiangam Saadhhae ||

Some practice inner cleansing teahniques, and control the breath through Kundalini Yoga.

ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥

Mohi Dheen Har Har Aaraadhhae ||1||

I am meek; I worship and adore the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||

ਤੇਰਾ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥

Thaeraa Bharosaa Piaarae ||

I place my faith in You alone, O Beloved Lord.

ਆਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਵੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Aan N Jaanaa Vaesaa ||1|| Rehaao ||

I do not know any other way. ||1||Pause|| Guru Arjan Sahib pg912

I believe in my Guru and his words are for you to twist and translate.

So my dear here is my testimony from Guru Granth Sahib accepting that I don't have deep knowledge of yoga and gurbani but Guru's word is enough.

ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥

Mohi Dheen Har Har Aaraadhhae ||1||

I am meek; I worship and adore the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

You're clearly not understanding the theme. Just like the Dev thread, I have to keep on repeating myself.

Please Don't repeat yourself Shabad of Guru Arjan Sahib clears the stand of Gursikh

ਕਿਨਹੀ ਨਿਵਲ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥

Kinehee Nival Bhueiangam Saadhhae ||

Some practice inner cleansing teahniques, and control the breath through Kundalini Yoga.

ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥

Mohi Dheen Har Har Aaraadhhae ||1||

I am meek; I worship and adore the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||

ਤੇਰਾ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥

Thaeraa Bharosaa Piaarae ||

I place my faith in You alone, O Beloved Lord.

ਆਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਵੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Aan N Jaanaa Vaesaa ||1|| Rehaao ||

I do not know any other way. ||1||Pause||

I believe in my Guru not in yoga techniques.

--------------------------*****************---------------------

This was rather clear you was not able to twist

ਜੋਗੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਜਗੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਦਾਨੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਤਪਸਾ ॥੪॥

Jogaen Kin Jagaen Kin Dhaanaen Kin Thapasaa ||4||

What is the good of practicing Yoga, giving feasts and charity, and practicing penance? ||4||

Why did Bhagat Jaidev said because he knew only Lord's name is required and surrender to him no yoga:

ਕੇਵਲ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਮਨੋਰਮੰ ॥

Kaeval Raam Naam Manoraman ||

Dwell only upon the beauteous Name of the Lord,

On the topic of Dev and Sahib. It clearly talks about manmukh.

Sahib means master whom we take orders from, a very precious word. Guru Nanak Sahib To Guru Granth Sahib.

So learn from Bhai Gurdass ji

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਛਡਿ ਕੈ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਹੋਇ ਬੰਦੇ ਦਾ ਬੰਦਾ।

Satigur Saahibu Chhadi Kai Manamoukhu Hoi Banday Daa Bandaa.

Manmukh, the mind-orientated, leaving away the true Guru Lord becomes slave of man.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬੰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਨਿਤ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਲਾਮੁ ਕਰੰਦਾ।

Houkamee Bandaa Hoi Kai Nit Outdi Jaai Salaam Karandaa.

Becoming errand boy of man he goes daily to salute him.

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਹਥ ਜੋੜਿ ਕੈ ਹੋਇ ਹਜੂਰੀ ਖੜਾ ਰਹੰਦਾ।

Aatd Pahar Had Jorhi Kai Hoi Hajooree Kharhaa Rahandaa.

All the twenty four hours (eight pahars) with folded hands he stands before his master.

ਨੀਦ ਨ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਸੁਖ ਤਿਸੁ ਸੂਲੀ ਚੜ੍ਹਿਆ ਰਹੈ ਡਰੰਦਾ।

Need N Bhoukh N Soukh Tisu Soolee Charhhiaa Rahai Darandaa.

Sleep, hunger and pleasure he does not have and remains so scared as if he has been sacrificed.

ਪਾਣੀ ਪਾਲਾ ਧੁਪ ਛਾਉ ਸਿਰ ਉਤੈ ਝਲਿ ਦੁਖ ਸਹੰਦਾ।

Paanee Paalaa Dhoup Chhaau Sir Outai Jhali Doukh Sahandaa.

Throughout rains, cold, sunlight, shade, he undergoes myriad sufferings.

ਆਤਸ ਬਾਜੀ ਸਾਰੁ ਵੇਖਿ ਰਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਘਾਇਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਮਰੰਦਾ।

Aatasabaajee Saaru Vaykhi Ran Vichi Ghaailu Hoi Marandaa.

In the battlefield (of life) this same person, considering sparks of iron as fireworks gets mortally wounded.

ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਵਿਣੁ ਜੂਨਿ ਭਵੰਦਾ ॥੪॥

Gur Pooray Vinu Jooni Bhavandaa ॥4॥

Without the (shelter of) perfect Guru, he wanders through the species. Bhai Gurdass pauri 4 Vaar 15

Reading Prof. Sahib Singh it is very clear that people 100+ years ago also wanted to prove Bhagat Kabeer ji did yoga.

But his line's convey his message to Gursikh.

ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਐਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਐ ਜੈਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੪੯॥

Har Jan Aisaa Chaaheeai Jaisaa Har Hee Hoe ||149||

हरि जनु ऐसा चाहीऐ जैसा हरि ही होइ ॥१४९॥

The humble servant of the Lord should be just like the Lord. ||149||

Lord does not do yoga nor his servant requires, its just about "Naam Khumaari Nanaka chadi rahe din raat".

[DSGj]

Guru is trying to tell you something, but you don't want to listen. Instead you just make up your own definitions.

ਕਿਨਹੀ ਨਿਵਲ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥

Kinehee Nival Bhueiangam Saadhhae ||

Some practice inner cleansing teahniques, and control the breath through Kundalini Yoga.

ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥

Mohi Dheen Har Har Aaraadhhae ||1||

I am meek; I worship and adore the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||

ਤੇਰਾ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥

Thaeraa Bharosaa Piaarae ||

I place my faith in You alone, O Beloved Lord.

ਆਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਵੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Aan N Jaanaa Vaesaa ||1|| Rehaao ||

I do not know any other way. ||1||Pause||

"Some practice inner cleansing teahniques, and control the breath through Kundalini Yoga."

^ That is not referring to yoga with a lifestyle full of Naam, Satguru, Bairaag, Love, Good Deeds, etc. That is referring to JUST doing yoga ALONE in order to connect to Vahiguru and remove bad karams. But in Gurmat, one MUST have a practical lifestyle, in order to overcome bad karams.

But once again, Satguru gives us the answer.

ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥

Araadhnaa in itself is Naam Simran, Pooja, Sevaa, Bhagtee and is a cleansing process and blissful process. And it is all YOGA.

Read the following image file. Stop twisting word meanings and Shabad meanings.

[luckysingh99]

The shabad on ang 329

I have to agree with GurdeepSinghJohalji here-

SInce

ਨਾ ਮੈ ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

Nā mai jog ḏẖi▫ān cẖiṯ lā▫i▫ā.

I have not practiced Yoga, or focused my consciousness on meditation.

Na= no or I haven't

Mai= me

Jog= yoga

Dhian= concentrate, focus Gian= knowledge

chit= Consciousness

Laia= to have done

I haven't focused my concentration on yoga or I haven't used yoga for concentrating my conscious.

This shabad is actually in reference to Kabeer ji leaving Kashi, since he did feel he wasted his life there as he had not learned any gurmat !

[luckysingh99]

However, the shabad on ang 912 above is quite neutral and does not praise or condemn Kundalini yoga.

It is simply talking about empty practices !

ਆਰਾਧੇ = aradhe means to meditate.

I don't think it's a form of yoga, maybe you are getting confused with the popular 'radha yoga'

[DSGj]

Let me clear up one thing...

I am not saying to not do Simran, Seva, Kirat, Good deeds, love, bairaag, Naam, have Satguru, ,etc.

I am saying those are a MUST!

A Sikh does not NEED "yoga". Not at all, not ever.

BUT, let's say a Sikh lives a productive lifestyle, does Naam Abhiaas, Simran, Seva, Kirat, full belief and trust in Satguru, etc.

And once in a while that Sikh did Oankaar and Naam Jaap through a yoga technique.

Do we automatically label that person is a manmukh, a fake Sikh, and follows manmat, etc?

Obviously not!

BUT, that is what (some) people are doing on this forum.

I know 3HO has a suspicious history among many other faults. But to label them manmukhs/following manmat and call them many other words, JUST because they focused on Naam through a yoga technique instead of a different technique?

Like COME ON!

Have we become that closed minded?

GurdeepSinghJohal Jee says:

:nono:

And followers of Yogi Harbhajan need to look more to gurbani to justify there manmat prachar.

People who does Teeka(transalation) does translate shabad according to their belief and practise(manmat), if one goes by gurmat Bhagat Jaidev's baani is example, Yogi bhajan followers quote his shabad for support of their practise

luckysingh99 Jee says:

I'm sure that most of us that participate in deep meditation and simran do actually get an 'Intuiton' that Yoga is NOT completely denied or condemned.

The problem is that we always get the 2 extremes !

Those that completely reject and those that accept yoga!

My understanding is like most of us and that yoga is NOT rejected outright !

However, empty practices of any kind are manmat.

If the 'dhian' is primarily for waheguru along with devotion and you incorporate some yoga posture while practicing simran then this is gurmat.-nothing wrong with that.

You will see that one poster has an extreme type of view and division-creating view - that there can be NO yoga technique for Naam Abhiaas,

whereas,

another poster has a much more respectable view of being open minded and respecting small differences in techniques of Naam Abhiaas.

[luckysingh99]

I totally agree and understand your stance completely,

We have to remember that Yoga means=Union with God or Creation.

We do this when interacting with creation around us without ever realising !

When we eat, we sit in upright posture to help swallow.

When we sleep, we lie on our backs.

When we tire, we rest our bums.

When we wash we stay upright...etc...

All this is the postions we assume when interacting with creation around us.

For those that meditate and practice simran will also know and be aware that it can be done whilst lying down, however it is NOT always the same and as when sitting upright..

Only sometimes can someone get the same kind of anand or better whilst lyining, but they get the anand almost everytime they sit upright.

Therefore we should realise that sikhi is about being open minded, but this does not mean empty or blind practices of any sort !

[DSGj]

I totally agree and understand your stance completely,

We have to remember that Yoga means=Union with God or Creation.

We do this when interacting with creation around us without ever realising !

When we eat, we sit in upright posture to help swallow.

When we sleep, we lie on our backs.

When we tire, we rest our bums.

When we wash we stay upright...etc...

All this is the postions we assume when interacting with creation around us.

For those that meditate and practice simran will also know and be aware that it can be done whilst lying down, however it is NOT always the same and as when sitting upright..

Only sometimes can someone get the same kind of anand or better whilst lyining, but they get the anand almost everytime they sit upright.

Therefore we should realise that sikhi is about being open minded, but this does not mean empty or blind practices of any sort !

Of course Veer Jee!

I think we are finally getting somewhere in this discussion.

Like in the original post of this thread, sunny_love-kirtan Jee gave the following link:

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/2008/10/16/sodarshan-chakra-kriya-meditation/

If we look at that link and read the 46 comments, we will realise that the yoga technique in question has actually been useful and helpful to many people to do Naam Abhiaas.

That's what floats their boat.

They are not doing it for gain of powers, or gain of life/health.

They are doing it as one type of technique of Naam Abhiaas.

Who are we to say "don't do it, that's manmat, you're a moorakh. Don't focus on Naam that way."

You see how bad and disgusting that type of mentality looks?

"Don't focus on Naam that way".

Like excuse me? Really?

Focusing on Naam is one of the main pillars of Sikhi.

3H0 and Yogi Harbhajan might have many faults, but I don't think we should be picking at them in this case in which they are using a different technique than others to focus on Naam.

Through Gurbani, while on their path of Sikhi, if they have obtained a teaching/interpretation of one way of possibly doing Naam Abhiaas, kudos to them.

It's not controversial at all.

But when people start labelling them (and calling them names and looking down on them), that's when people who want to divide Sikhs come in and start preaching/promoting an 'absolutely no yoga in Sikhi' type mentality. The people who want us to fight with eachother and create divisions, those people try and take advantage. Which is what many parchaaraks such as the missionaries have been doing. They try and make everyone all emotional and try to show everyone that they are saving them from "brahmanism" and "hinduism", and the end result is yoga gets flushed down the drain along with Naam Abhiaas and 'spirituality-type' topics.

We must let small differences in Naam Abhiaas go, and we must strive to appreciate eachother's passion for connecting to Naam.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

ਕਿਨਹੀ ਨਿਵਲ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥

ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥ ਆਰਾਧੇ here means worship its not Yoga

You forget these line which makes things more clear

ਤੇਰਾ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥

Thaeraa Bharosaa Piaarae ||

I place my faith in You alone, O Beloved Lord.

ਆਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਵੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Aan N Jaanaa Vaesaa ||1|| Rehaao ||

I do not know any other way. ||1||Pause||

You don't have faith in your Guru you need yoga which can't help you because you don't have faith in your Guru and if you have faith in your Guru nothing is required.

ਆਰਾਧੇ means worship its not yoga, If you do paath its also will be called ਅਰਾਧਨਾ Sikhs do nitnem that is our way, if you sing hymes in praise of God, to be very specific keertan it will also be called ਅਰਾਧਨਾ. Guru Granth Sahib is in Raags.

Sikhs of Guru are so weak now days they need Yoga. No Sir. People always try to twist gurbani to justify there manmat actions. Like you are doing here. We have Guru who says ਆਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਵੇਸਾ I do not any other way and if I comapre this with your view what can I say.