Bhagat Jaidev ji : sudarshan chakra kirya meditation

[Ragmaala]

After listening to katha of Suraj Prakash Granth by Kavi Santokh Singh ji, few bachans of Sant Ishar Singh ji rara sahib, and katha of Giani Thakur Singh ji --> my understanding is that Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji/ Mata Jeeta ji used to do yoga abhyas ? If yoga is condemned why did she use to do it, maybe its a lie or maybe I misunderstood.

I also understand that hatha yoga is not recommended in Kalyug age ( bachans of Sant Isher Singh ji rara sahib).

So maybe in the end , it all depends on the avastha "mental state" of the abhyasi/jagyasu?

If yoga is condemned, how come meditators/Naam Abhyasis sit with a straight back or sit in padmasana etc, doesnt that fall under yoga too ( the maintenance of certain postures) ?

just looking for some clarifications

and moreover at any given time, we only have one dominant breath , left or right . how do we stop that because thats also under yoga ? you see what i am saying ?

I think where we go wrong is when we are too focused on certain outer/physical restraints. The main focus for us is the Gurmantar given by the panj pyare, once can recite it in any way they like, if people like to "savdhan ekagar cheet", physical postures might help. There are many tools given , just need to utilize them as aids towards our main goal.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

After listening to katha of Suraj Prakash Granth by Kavi Santokh Singh ji, few bachans of Sant Ishar Singh ji rara sahib, and katha of Giani Thakur Singh ji --> my understanding is that Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji/ Mata Jeeta ji used to do yoga abhyas ? If yoga is condemned why did she use to do it, maybe its a lie or maybe I misunderstood.

I also understand that hatha yoga is not recommended in Kalyug age ( bachans of Sant Isher Singh ji rara sahib).

So maybe in the end , it all depends on the avastha "mental state" of the abhyasi/jagyasu?

If yoga is condemned, how come meditators/Naam Abhyasis sit with a straight back or sit in padmasana etc, doesnt that fall under yoga too ( the maintenance of certain postures) ?

just looking for some clarifications

and moreover at any given time, we only have one dominant breath , left or right . how do we stop that because thats also under yoga ? you see what i am saying ?

I think where we go wrong is when we are too focused on certain outer/physical restraints. The main focus for us is the Gurmantar given by the panj pyare, once can recite it in any way they like, if people like to "savdhan ekagar cheet", physical postures might help. There are many tools given , just need to utilize them as aids towards our main goal.

I don't know about any sant or giani ji, Two references from gurbani are there for your reading. Yoga is not condemned but its practises are, for sake of liberation controlling mind by yoga is not justified by gurbani. Surrender to Guru's shabad is all that required. Better read and understand gurbani for yourself.

[luckysingh99]

The problem is that we always get the 2 extremes !

Those that completely reject and those that accept yoga!

My understanding is like most of us and that yoga is NOT rejected outright !

However, empty practices of any kind are manmat.

If the 'dhian' is primarily for waheguru along with devotion and you incorporate some yoga posture while practicing simran then this is gurmat.-nothing wrong with that.

I think we need some kind of a clear description of when Yoga can be mixed in with sikhi and help one's devotion and spirituality.

If someone can give us some better clarification of what is and isn't gurmat, then most of us should understand it a little better.

How do we really answer the question ''Do sikhs practice Yoga'??

The answer starts with a yes and a but.............. or a simple 'No'

I just need some better explanations for the 'yes' option !

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

I can practise yoga if somebody advices to get relief of some physical problem. :biggrin2:

But for controlling mind, to concenterate on gurmantar :nono: No Guru did it, no bhagat whose baani is in Guru Granth Sahib did it, for concenteration on Guru's shabad or gurmantar.

People who does Teeka(transalation) does translate shabad according to their belief and practise(manmat), if one goes by gurmat Bhagat Jaidev's baani is example, Yogi bhajan followers quote his shabad for support of their practise and Bhagat Jaidev ji consider Yoga useless. Bhagat Kabeer ji's baani is also example in this discussion.

ਨਾ ਮੈ ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

I have not used yoga techniques to control my mind.

After above tuk of Bhagat Kabeer ji's

Dasamsarblohgranth still quotes a shabad and explains:-

"Bhagat Kabir Jee is narrating how his mind used to be waivering (chanchal) like the wind, but now has become tranquil and stable/under control (therefore peaceful). Bhagat Kabir Jee says that it seems that he has learned something (controlling the mind and connecting to Vahiguru) through the science (techniques) of yoga."

[N30S1NGH]

Its not the yoga itself which is condemned or discouraged in Gurmat but rather perception of individual engaging in yoga..eg- a) if individual perception/intent who is doing yoga- raw breathing exercise or even shabad surat to gain occult powers or show up magic tricks/ridhia sidhiya powers or show karamat not aligned with hakum, that is clearly condemned in Gurmat. b) if individual perception who is doing yoga don't believe in gurparsad/satguru kirpa and naam, such perception is contrary to Gurmat as dasamsarbloh veer above rightly pointed out. c) if individual perception who is doing yoga believe in to disconnect from whole world and go in jungles and start doing yoga to connect with divine that is also contrary to nirole Gurmat Sidhant. d) if individual perception who is doing yoga raw breathing without incorporating gur shabad in it that is also contary to Gurmat as gurbani strongly emphasize on naam/gur shabad in simran and talks about incorparating shabad with it as mentioned in original post. e). if individual perception wrap his/her head around yoga and consider be all or end all (rather than just a tool to help in meditation development stages) that is also contary to Gurmat.

So at the end, its not yoga tool itself is condemned but individual perception surrounding yoga which is discussed or put under microscope.

I think in lay man terms, for understanding purposes we can relate yoga with internet all though not in anyway related but real life example should make sense...yoga and internet is tool to help but yoga/internet itself cannot be consider bad but rather people whose intent is to misuse or do misuse the technology are considered bad.

[DSGj]

GurdeepSinghJohal Jee,

ਨਾ ਮੈ ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

ਬਿਨੁ ਬੈਰਾਗ ਨ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੧॥

ਕੈਸੇ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

ਜਬ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਅਧਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਖੋਜਉ ਅਸਮਾਨ ॥

ਰਾਮ ਸਮਾਨ ਨ ਦੇਖਉ ਆਨ ॥੨॥੩੪॥

Gauree, Kabeer Jee, Du-Paday:
I have not practiced Yoga, or focused my consciousness on meditation.
Without renunciation, I cannot escape Maya. ||1||
How have I passed my life?
I have not taken the Lord's Name as my Support. ||1||Pause||
Says Kabeer, I have searched the skies,
and have not seen another, equal to the Lord. ||2||34||

Please stop twisting the meanings of Gurbani by focusing on only one line again and again. Look at the whole Shabad. Like I have said before, once again, this is talking about yoga WITHOUT NAAM and without BAIRAAG and without SATGURU in the equation.

You keep on saying that this one line proves that Bhagat Kabir Jee didn't do yoga?

Then by your standards Bhagat Kabir Jee was a paapee and a moorakh and many other things.

You must be able to understand the theme of the Shabad.

Bhagat Kabir Jee isn't actually saying that he didn't do yoga, and that he didn't take support of Naam.

The same way other Guru's don't actually mean they are paapees when they call themselves one.

They mean it, but at the same time they don't.

They say it and feel it out of nimrataa, so it's obviously within Gurbanee, but, at the same time it obviously isn't the intention of the Shabad.

The intention is to bring nimrataa within the readers and also to show that WITHOUT NAAM and WITHOUT SATGURU and WITHOUT BAIRAAG, then everything is useless.

So, they aren't going to put someone else down, so instead they make an example out of themselves.

There is a kathaa about this by Maskeen Jee which clears this up.

You must be able to recognize the theme in order to understand the bigger picture.

When there is Satguru, Naam, Bairaag and Kirpaa involved......NO WHERE IN GURBANI does it say that yoga is wrong.

Where there is Satguru, Naam, Bairaag/Love, Kirpaa, contribution to society, family lifestyle, virtuous lifestyle focused on good deeds, etc.....then there is nothing wrong with yoga for increasing concentration/focus on NAAM and OANKAAR and Satguru/Vahiguru.

When the yoga itself revolves around Naam and is carried out specifically for the purpose of connection to Naam, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Read these Shabads and you will see the common theme.....No Naam, No love, No bairaag, No good deeds, No Satguru, No contributive lifestyle.....obviously yoga would be worthless.

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1335

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1406

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1590

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1591

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1477

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1774

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=2142

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=2159

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=2415

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=2532

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=2790

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1288

Read all of this for more understanding:

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

GurdeepSinghJohal Jee,

ਨਾ ਮੈ ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

ਬਿਨੁ ਬੈਰਾਗ ਨ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੧॥

ਕੈਸੇ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

ਜਬ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਅਧਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਖੋਜਉ ਅਸਮਾਨ ॥

ਰਾਮ ਸਮਾਨ ਨ ਦੇਖਉ ਆਨ ॥੨॥੩੪॥

Gauree, Kabeer Jee, Du-Paday:

I have not practiced Yoga, or focused my consciousness on meditation.

Without renunciation, I cannot escape Maya. ||1||

How have I passed my life?

I have not taken the Lord's Name as my Support. ||1||Pause||

Says Kabeer, I have searched the skies,

and have not seen another, equal to the Lord. ||2||34||

Please stop twisting the meanings of Gurbani by focusing on only one line again and again. Look at the whole Shabad. Like I have said before, once again, this is talking about yoga WITHOUT NAAM and without BAIRAAG and without SATGURU in the equation.

You keep on saying that this one line proves that Bhagat Kabir Jee didn't do yoga?

Then by your standards Bhagat Kabir Jee was a paapee and a moorakh and many other things.

Please feel free to enlighten with Prof Sahib Singh. Pg 22 of the pdf file.

These words u used for me might apply for Prof. Sahib Singh because he has same view like me and avoid associating this kind of judgement of yours with anyone.

Please u stop twisting gurbani. This was simple shabad I did not knew you don't have capability to understand simple shabad. Compare your twisted translation with the attached file.

0326-0350.pdf

[DSGj]

You're clearly not understanding the theme. Just like the Dev thread, I have to keep on repeating myself.

In Gurmat, Naam Abhiaas is YOGA. Satguru, Naam, Piaar, Bairaag, Good Deeds...these are all yoga. But especially Naam Abhiaas is the best yoga, since Naam is greater than all.

Everyone has different ways to meditate. Not everyone is going to do Naam Abhiaas the same way. Everyone has different speeds, techniques and styles.

Since Naam Abhiaas is yoga in itself, then, using a yoga technique to focus one's attention on Naam is not wrong. It is totally in-line with Gurmat.

When the purpose and focus of the act itself is for Naam Abhiaas, then how can you say it's wrong?

We're not talking about yoga for health, powers, etc.

We're talking about Naam/Oankaar Jaap using yoga techniques.

Please read this updated version of the most recent file I posted. It will explain much better.

All of those Shabads you keep on posting, have the same theme. That there is no Naam or Satguru.

The one I posted, you have no answer for, because there is Naam and Satguru's Kirpaa, as it clearly states, GUR DIKHLAAEE.

Outside of Prof/Principal Sahib Singh Jee, you have not been able to give any example of the metaphors related towards:

• "closing the doors"
• "pitcher heart-lotus is filled/full"
• "water is emptied out and pitcher is set up-right"
• "celestial bliss is being experienced"

The examples for the metaphors I gave are accurate to approximately AT LEAST 250 years ago.

[luckysingh99]

It is amazing how far the missionary/kala-afghana/tarksheel approach has affected the mindsets of today's Sikhs. Keep an open mind.

There is a difference between the following:

1. Yoga for health maintenance/gain, lifetime gain, yoga for attempt to gain 'powers', etc.

and

2. Yoga for increasing concentration and focusing/concentrating on Naam/Shabad/Dhunee/Vahiguru/Oankaar.

In Gurbani, EVERYTHING IS USELESS (including yoga) if one does not have (attention towards) Satgur and Naam and actually live a purposeful and practical life full of virtues. One can have a Mantar/Mantra to concentrate on, but without Satgur, it is not helpful because one cannot control that Mantra towards positive outcomes due to lack of guidance (no Satgur). Also without Satgur, one can do Jaap of the Mantra, but can easily drown in ego and other things due to lack of guidance from Satgur.

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=4880

BUT...when one has Satgur and is following Satgur, and one is focused on/towards Naam and Vahiguru/God, then even yoga can be useful/helpful to connect towards Satgur/Vahiguru/Naam/Dhuni/Shabad.

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3601

from the above Shabad, focus on:

ਜਬ ਕੁੰਭਕੁ ਭਰਿਪੁਰਿ ਲੀਣਾ ॥

When I was focused and merged into the all-pervading Lord,

ਤਹ ਬਾਜੇ ਅਨਹਦ ਬੀਣਾ ॥੩॥

then the unstruck sound current began to vibrate. ||3||

^ The English translations do not do justice towards the true meaning of the lines. Because the meaning of Kumbhak is not even mentioned. Instead, Kumbhak got lost in translation to mean "focused". But how does it mean focused and what exactly is Kumbhak?

The following image file will answer that along with the original question in this thread. It will all make sense. Keep an open mind. Stop being anti-hindu/anti-yoga/anti-mystical/anti-mythism, etc.

Everything has it's place.

Shabad Meaning.jpg

Thanks for that good piece of informative work !

I was kind of aware about the pitcher being used as a metaphor as we recently discussed this in another thread about Bhagat Kabeer ji .

In that particular thread and shabad, I finally concluded that the pitcher was the body but he didn't speak too much about the contents of the vessel rather the outside that is exposed to the maya world!

Anyway, I find your mentioned approach very useful and a new step forward for me after doing some extra research and reading !

[luckysingh99]

GurdeepSinghJohal ji,

I must say as a little warning that I myself have fallen for the single pangthi and one-liners from shabads and ended up with completely wrong messages!

I have learnt that it is important to quote and look at the whole shabad and especially the 'Rahao' pangthi to get the true essence and message of the shabad.

Quite often the one-liners can mislead us quite easily and then we find some other shabad that is contradicting the one liner, we look at it closely and realise that we were barking up the wrong tree !!!