Bush or Kerry?

[V]

You are not muslim so whatever laws there are in shariah about apostates will not affect you.

you will never truely understand Shariah law or islam just as I will never fully understand sikhism because we simply just don't share the same beliefs.  That is why for example this law you will never understand, just like there are plenty of things in Sikhism I will never understand or agree with.

no tha's actually not true, because Converts, are u saying just because they comes form another religion don't understand the religion perfectly?

as a matter of Fact, Most COnverts to Sikhi today (mostly in MExico) know MORe about Sikhi than Average Sikh..

How about the ex-Muslim who you have said you agree with being killed solely for changing his religion, isn't he innocent??

In terms of islam he is not innocent because he turned away from the truth.

-QuoteEEnd-->

but in the end - it's his decition whether he wants to follow the truth or go to Hell, no it doens't affect Bik, but once is someone Converts to Islam being convinced by boyfriend etc, she stuck into a cage, either she continues to live oppresed - or she says- go on kill me

do you see what i mean?

in the end who are you or I to kill someone because he/she turned away from God?

if God wants tha person to be dead then God will kill him/her, unless we can give life to tha person - we shouldn't be killing that person. Who are we to do the role of God?

God can kill u, and give u life again two mimns after is God So wishes - can some executioner do that?

Did u read the story posted by Bijla SIngh a while ago about the Fakeer and God- If GOD keeps nurturing someone who doens't worship him, who are WE to get rid of the person?

In the end, by ur own statement, u can't really call Islam PEACEFUL as it condones the Killing of someone who doesn't believe in SIlam

Is tha Tolerance?

is that LOVE?

It that brotherhood?

is tha kindness?

Is tha Compassion?

is tha Islam? Cause according to what u jus said, Islam doens't fill any of the above criterias.

Again I'm not trying to offend u.

I'm a moorakh, with no whatsoever knowledge.

Lets see what advice Guru GRanth SAhib ji Maharaj gives advice to Muslims

(I know this hymn is long, but please read the entire Shabad :lol:

Maaroo, Fifth Mehl:

O slave of the inaccessible Lord God Allah,

forsake thoughts of worldly entanglements.

Become the dust of the feet of the humble fakeers, and consider yourself a traveller on this journey. O saintly dervish, you shall be approved in the Court of the Lord. ||1||

Let Truth be your prayer, and faith your prayer-mat.

Subdue your desires, and overcome your hopes.

Let your body be the mosque, and your mind the priest. Let true purity be God's Word for you. ||2||

Let your practice be to live the spiritual life.

Let your spiritual cleansing be to renounce the world and seek God.

Let control of the mind be your spiritual wisdom, O holy man; meeting with God, you shall never die again. ||3||

Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible;

restrain the ten sensory organs from straying into evil.

Tie up the five demons of desire with faith, charity and contentment, and you shall be acceptable. ||4||

Let compassion be your Mecca, and the dust of the feet of the holy your fast.

Let Paradise be your practice of the Prophet's Word.God is the beauty, the light and the fragrance. Meditation on Allah is the secluded meditation chamber. ||5||

He alone is a Qazi, who practices the Truth.

He alone is a Haji, a pilgrim to Mecca, who purifies his heart.

He alone is a Mullah, who banishes evil; he alone is a saintly dervish, who takes the Support of the Lord's Praise. ||6

||Always, at every moment, remember God, the Creator within your heart.

Let your meditation beads be the subjugation of the ten senses. Let good conduct and self-restraint be your circumcision. ||7||

You must know in your heart that everything is temporary.

Family, household and siblings are all entanglements.

Kings, rulers and nobles are mortal and transitory; only God's Gate is the permanent place. ||8||

First, is the Lord's Praise; second, contentment;

third, humility, and fourth, giving to charities.

Fifth is to hold one's desires in restraint. These are the five most sublime daily prayers. ||9||

Let your daily worship be the knowledge that God is everywhere.

Let renunciation of evil actions be the water-jug you carry.

Let realization of the One Lord God be your call to prayer; be a good child of God - let this be your trumpet. ||10||

Let what is earned righteously be your blessed food.

Wash away pollution with the river of your heart.

One who realizes the Prophet attains heaven. Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death, does not cast him into hell. ||11||

Let good deeds be your body, and faith your bride.

Play and enjoy the Lord's love and delight.

Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||

To be Muslim is to be kind-hearted,

and wash away pollution from within the heart.

He does not even approach worldly pleasures; he is pure, like flowers, silk, ghee and the deer-skin. ||13||

One who is blessed with the mercy and compassion of the Merciful Lord,

is the manliest man among men.He alone is a Shaykh, a preacher, a Haji, and he alone is God's slave, who is blessed with God's Grace. ||14||

The Creator Lord has Creative Power; the Merciful L

ord has Mercy.

The Praises and the Love of the Merciful Lord are unfathomable.

Realize the True Hukam, the Command of the Lord, O Nanak; you shall be released from bondage, and carried across. ||15||3||12||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=3795&Format=2

Again and again in the Koran is it write "mericiFul Allah"

is tha the Merci of Such a God, tha instead of God getting the person 'lost' to get back

into the fold of Islam this "Mericiful Allah" wants his own creation killed

Again if God wants someone killed- he can do his play and jus get that person killed, and doens't need doesn't need a personal hitman

bhull chukk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Mr Singh

Excellent post Bhaji! You are so right, if God wanted anyone to be punished because they did not worship Him then He would deal with that person in the twinkling of an eye. This is one of the main differences between Sikhi and Islam and probably one of things that a Muslim can never understand about Sikhi, Waheguru bears neither enmity or hatred towards anyone, Wahguru as the Mool Mantar states is both Nirbhau and Nirvair

IK ONKAAR SAT NAAM KARTA PURKH NIRBHAU NIRVAIR AKAAL MOORAT AJOONI SABHANG

GUR PARSAAD

There is only one god Truth is his name He is the creator He is without fear

He is without hate He is timeless and without form He is beyond birth and death, The enlightened one He can be known by the guru's grace

Inversely having been taught from a young age the concepts of God in the Mool Mantar it is difficult for us Sikhs to understand a God like Allah who hates people who do not believe in him so much so that he demands their deaths if they reject him.

Yasmin

In terms of islam he is not innocent because he turned away from the truth.

Surely each person has the right to choose whatever religion they wish to belong to? Maybe that is too radical a belief for you. Punishment for harm done we Sikhs can understand, if the person committed a crime or assaulted anyon

e then he should be rightly punished but killing someone just because they no longer believe in Islam is barbaric and not civilised person could ever agree with that.

You are not muslim so whatever laws there are in shariah about apostates will not affect you.

Another radical concept from Sikhi, we Sikhs are taught to care about our fellow man no matter what their religion. Our 9th Guru, Guru Tegh Bahadur was martyred for standing up for the rights of Hindus to practice their beliefs without oppression. Even though the Guru's teachings are in variance with the beliefs of the Hindus.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Yasmin]

no tha's actually not true, because Converts, are u saying just because they comes form another religion don't understand the religion perfectly?

No, converts are different and indeed they often know more about the religion than those born into it. A convert would understand such things such as Shraiah Law perspectives because he/she has the fundamental beleifs in the religion and so will agree with its teachings or they will not have converted in the first place.

[Bijla Singh]

I just don't understand. Islam is 1400 years old and muslims have some 40 countries and large population in non-islamic countries. one billion people have failed to implement the "truth" of islam and only one yasmin knows what the truth is. some 40 muslim countries have not understood the "real" islam after 1400 years but yasmin does. i am surprised. if so many people have not understood the "truth" of islam and therefore failed to "implement" it then what is the need for this kind of complicated religion? and such a complicated religion started by someone who was totally uneducated? i got my copy of quran from malaysia and mostly it talked about "kiiling kafirs", women being "inferior and unclean", men having more rights, and to have "fear of allah" all the time. i felt like i wasted too much of my time reading over 1500 pages but i guess it was not the real "truth" either. if "allah" only likes islam then why does he allow for other religions to exist and why would he send me into a Sikh family? if "allah" hates me for not being "true believer" then i don't believe in "allah" and rather go to "dojak". and those who leave islam must have more knowledge about islam than those who choose to stay in. right? because converts always have more knowledge and they find something else better than islam. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Guest vikramkhalsa]

umm...how did we get into this discussion?? maybe that shud be made into a separate thread. this topic was oroginally for people talking about their views on the presidential candidates, and i would like to hear more peoples opinions on bush and kerry.....thanks

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[S1ngh]

Bijla singh post made some excellent points !!!

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

good posts singho!

Oh mehtab singh about Iran, I work with a girl from Iran. We were talking and the subject of Sikhs in Iran came up. I told her that there is a very small population of Sikhs in Iran and there is also a gurdwara near tehran. She was shocked, she said are you sure because the mullahs would not allow such a thing. So I guess if sikhs are allowed to worship in Iran, the politicians keep it on the down low.

We must remember some things though:

62. Which Muslim saint joined Guru Ji's army with his four sons and 500 men for the above battle?

Pir Budhu Shah.

80. Which Nawab appealed on behalf of the young Sahibjades at the court hearing infront of Wajir Khan.?

Newab Sher Khan of Malairkotla

http://www.info-sikh.com/PageA2.html

But makes one wonder if these Muslims would be viewd by other Muslims as helping out the kafirs? <_<

[Bijla Singh]

about bush and kerry, doesn't matter who wins Sikhs will get nothing. didn't kerry once call Sikhs "terrorists"? yeah yeah, he apologized but again called Sikhs "terrorists" indirectly and still shows his ignorance about Sikhs. bush wants oil and only cares about developing his home state. looking at the whole situation as a californian bush sucks. looking at the whole situation as a Sikh kerry sucks. we need our own country, our own planes and our own government where you live a free life and when you take a look around you, you see everyone with dastaars and in full bana. amazing feelings of a land where we own everything-air, sun, land and sky. a country where Nishaan Sahib hosted up in the sky where the whole world could see it.

"Fatt Jo Sanoo Sareer Tay Lagay, Ehnaa Fattan Nay Akhar Gulaab Hona Eh,

Jhanday Kesri Jhulangay Har Pasay Raj Khalsa Vich Punjab Hona Eh"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[V]

about bush and kerry, doesn't matter who wins Sikhs will get nothing. didn't kerry once call Sikhs "terrorists"? yeah yeah, he apologized but again called Sikhs "terrorists" indirectly and still shows his ignorance about Sikhs. bush wants oil and only cares about developing his home state. looking at the whole situation as a californian bush sucks. looking at the whole situation as a Sikh kerry sucks. we need our own country, our own planes and our own government where you live a free life and when you take a look around you, you see everyone with dastaars and in full bana. amazing feelings of a land where we own everything-air, sun, land and sky. a country where Nishaan Sahib hosted up in the sky where the whole world could see it.

"Fatt Jo Sanoo Sareer Tay Lagay, Ehnaa Fattan Nay Akhar Gulaab Hona Eh,

Jhanday Kesri Jhulangay Har Pasay Raj Khalsa Vich Punjab Hona Eh"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

During the Bush 'rule' theres been Sikhs in the white house and Sikhs been meetign Bush about Balbir SIngh etc - for SIKHS i Think Bush is the option

Kerry said'Sikh in India' along with some terrorist orgs i.e ETA etc, and when givign an apology he sent EMAIL nothing in the media (if im nto mistasken)

again in his apology all he said was - I was refering to the extrimists Sikhs'

again shows lack of udnerstanding abuot Sikhsi

in any case yeah Bijla SIngh ur post was so true...

bhull chukk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[sskhalsa]

last night, durin debate, kerry said something i deemed very important

he said something like "I been greatly influenced by God my entired life, I am a CAtholic etc. BUT, just because i believe in XYZ does not mean i can put forth legislation influeced by that. I have to represent the entire nation."

if i am understanding it right(and hes not lying lol), then i prefer kerry over hardcore christian bush