Nar-Singhs: Community Of Lions & Lionesses

[harj1ts1ngh]

do you disagree with this ? If so why?

It's not just that Veer. The missionaries totally deny the previous lives of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Ram Das Ji as detailed in Sri Dasam Granth.

To give you an idea of what these missionaries like Ghagga and Dhunda think, this is what the missionares are handing out in their leaflets at the Singh Sabha Gurdwara's in Alberta and probably other provinces and Dashmesh Darbar Gurdwara's in North America and also Singh Sabha Gurdwara's in England probably

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE BEDI AND THE SODHI DYNASTIES:

The Bachittar Naatak describes the History of the Bedi and the Sodhi dynasties as follows. Lord Ram Chander Ji had two sons - Luv, and Kush. Kaal Rai, a descendent of Luv, and Kaal Kate, a descendent of Kush developed some uneasy disagreement. Kaal Kate defeated Kaal Rai who fled to the State of Sanaudh where he married the daughter of the State ruler. A son was born to Kaal Rai who was named Sodhi. That is how, the Sodhi dynasty started. After some time, the Sodhis, who were the descendents of Luv, attacked the state of Kaal Kate, and defeated the Kushis who fled to Benaras. The Kushis studied Vedas for a number of years at Benaras, and came to be called as Vedis or Bedis. After sometime, the Sodhis invited the Bedis back to their State. The Bedis narrated the Vedas to the Sodhi ruler - first the three Vedas, Yajur, Rig, and the Saam - and then the fourth, Atherban. The reigning Sodhi was very happy to listen to the Vedas because all his sins were washed away by listening. He was so happy that he left the throne, gave it to the Bedis, and banished the city to go to some forest to lead the life of a hermit. The Bedis were very happy to get the power, and they promised that when he (we could not understand which one of the Bedis) would be born as Guru Nanak in Kal Yug, he would also give the Guruship to the Sodhis. And just as he was given the power after listening to the fourth Veda after the first three, he too would give the Guruship to the Sodhis, after three gurus, starting with the fourth. (What a ridiculous story!)

2/28 Kaal Kate bhayo bali apara. Kaal Rai jin nagar nikara.

Bhaaj Sanaudh des te gaye. Tahi bhoop ja biahat bhaye.

2/29 Tih te pootter bhayo jo dhama. Sodhi Rai dhara tih nama.

Bans Sanaudh ta din te theeya. Param Pavitter purakh ju keeya. (God Himself started the Sanaudh Dynasty)

3/32 Luvi serb jeete Kushi serb haare. ...... (The Kushis fled to Benaras)

Chatur Bed pathiyang keeyo Kashi basang.

Ghanne barakh keene taha hi nivasang.

After sometime, the Sodhis invited the Bedis back. The latter narrated the Vedas to the Sodhis.

4/4. Atther bed pathiyang. Sunne paap nathiyang.

Raha reejh Raja. Deeya serb saaja

4/5. Layo ban basang. Maha paap nasang.

Rikhing bhes keeyang. Tisse raj deeyang

4/7. Bedi bhayo persann raj keh payekai.

Dait bhayo berdaan hiye hulsayekai

Jab Nanak Kal mein hum aan kahaye hai.

Ho jagatpooj ker tohi perm pud paye hein

4/9 Tritiye Bed sunbe tum kiya. Chatur Bed sun bhoo ko diya.

Teen janam humhoon jab dher hai. Chauthe janam guru tohi ker hai.

This tale has so many weak, and ridiculous points that it is a big disrespect to the Great Tenth Master if it is attributed to Him as His writing. It will require a large space to discuss all of them. Only a few important points are presented below for the consideration of the readers.

1. What was so special about Sodhi Rai that Waheguru, Himself, started his dynasty? (See couplet 2/29 above). Who started all other dynasties? Because the Tenth Master was a Sodhi, the author some how tried to relate Him to Shri Ram Chander Ji so as to elevate the importance of the Sodhis. He also tried to relate Bedis to Shri Ram Chander for the same reason. To do so, he had to concoct a very flimsy story. Obviously, he did not realize that the Bedis and the Sodhis are respected not because they are the descendents of Kush and Luv - the sons of Shri Ram Chander - but because the First Guru was a Bedi and the last seven Gurus were all Sodhis.
2. The Tenth Master strongly disapproved the use of castes and subcastes with the names because that aroused the sense of superiority among some people. That is why He made it mandatory for all Sikhs to use the word “Singh” as their last name. So, why would He describe the imaginary history of the Bedi and the Sodhi Dynasties violating His own principles?
3. No other Guru ever mentioned their castes or subcastes. Guru Nanak was revered by all the people who came in His contact, not because He was a Bedi, but because He treated their misery, and showered them with love.
4. The same Naatak describes the long and hard worship of God by the Tenth Master in His previous incarnation, and Waheguru sent Him to the Earth especially to spread His (God’s) Word. So, if the Sodhis were not promised Guruship, would not Gobind Rai be a Guru? Or, if Gobind Rai were to become Guru simply because of his birth in a Sodhi family as promised by the Bedis, why did he need to worship God?
5. Guru Granth Sahib does not accept for a second that sins are eradicated by listening to the Vedas. On the contrary, the Gurbani maintains that the Vedas only classify what deeds are sinful and which are virtuous. In fact, people get more engrossed in Maya by following the Vedas. Consider the following sacred Shabads in this regard:

Sagli rain sovat gal fahi dinus janjaal gawaiya. .......

Saster Bed trai goon hai maya andhlau dhand kamayee. (Bharau M:1)

Bed baani jag vertada trai goon kerai vichar. Bin Naave jam dand sahhe mer janme vaaro vaar. Satgur bhete mukat hoye paaye mokh duar. (Malaar M:3 Ashatpadi)

Bed baad sabh aakh wakhane. Na unter bheeje na Shabad pachhane. Punn paap sabh Bed drirhaya Gurmukh Amrit peeje hey. (Maaru Solhe M:3)

Bed Puraan sabh dekhe joye. Oohan tao jayeay jau eehan na hoye. (Basant Rama Nand Ji)

As is clear from the above sacred Shabads, let alone listening to the Vedas, even acting on them does not rid one of his sins. But let us suppose for a second, it does. Then the question arises: listening to which of the Vedas dispelled the sins of the Sodhi Ruler? Was it only the last Ved - Atherban, or were it all the four Vedas? If only the last Ved was capable of dispelling the sins, then there was no need to listen to the other three. And if it was all the four Vedas, then what sense does it make that the Bedis read the first three Vedas first, and then the fourth, so Guru Nanak would follow the same logic, and would give the Guruship to the Sodhis starting with the Fourth Guru? When four books are to be read - one at a time - what other way is there to read them? Why did the author write three and then the fourth? Why not in turn? Or, why not one and three, or two and two? This logic of three and then the fourth has absolutely no rationale.

1. What sins had the Sodhi Ruler committed which were eradicated? Even if he had committed some, was it natural for him to abdicate his rule? Was not it more natural for him to reward the Bedis in some other form?
2. At that time, what was so great about the Bedis that one of them ( and we do not know which one) knew that he would be born as Guru Nanak hundreds of thousands of years later? According to the Naatak, the Tenth Master had to really work very hard for a long time to please God; what had a Bedi done, other than reading the Vedas, that he qualified to be born as the Greatest Guru - Guru Nanak?
3. If we are correct, only the Brahmans had the right to study Vedas. The Kushis were Khattris; so how did they earn the right to study Vedas?
4. Also, the academics who are knowledgeable about one Ved are called Bedis, those who have the knowledge of two Vedas, are called Dubedis (or Dubes), having the knowledge of three Vedas are called Trivedis (or Tewaris), and those who know all the four Vedas, are called Chaturvedis (or Chaubes), and the last three are all Brahmans. Since, the Kushis had the knowledge of all the four Vedas, they should have been called Chaturvedis, and not just Bedis. Why is it that they were called only Bedis?
5. According to the Hindu granths, the ages of various Yugas are roughly as follows: Satyug = 1728000 years. Treta = 1296000 years.

Duwaper = 864000 years. Kalyug = 432000 years.

The story under discussion took place in Treta yug. Why did it take hundreds of thousands of years for the Bedi to be born as Guru Nanak and to return the favour of the Sodhis? Even if this fairy tale is true, (and it has absolutely no ground to be true) why did the Sodhis have to wait that long? What good is a promise which is not delivered for millions of years?

According to the most reliable scientific estimates, the first human appeared on the Earth less than 200000 years ago. (Most estimates put the age at 100000 years). And according to the World Book Encyclopedia (1999) edition, the first Ved - Rig Ved - is less than 4000 years old, and the Atherban Ved is less than 3000 years old. So, how could the Bedis have narrated the Vedas millions of years ago?

1. If it is believed that the Sodhis got Guruship because of that promise, what had the Trehans (Guru Angad’s subcaste) and the Bhallas (Guru Amar Das’ subcaste) done to earn Guruship? There is absolutely no mention in the Naatak of any promise made to the Trehans, and the Bhallas by the Bedi ruler that they would be given the Guruship. Why could not the Guruship atay with the Bedis for at least three generations? Obviously, the Guruship was awarded for high spiritual and moral qualities. We believe that the real author of the Naatak either could not concoct any story to cover this gap, or being an ordinary human being, completely forgot about this aspect.
2. The Naatak writes about the transfer of Guruship to Guru Ram Daas Ji as follows:

5/8 Jab verdaan sama vahu aawa. Ram Das tab Guru kahaawa.

Tih berdaan puratan diya. Amar Das Surpur mag liya

Again, if the Guruship was to be awarded to Bhai Jetha ji (Guru Ram Das JI) based on the promise, why did He have to work so hard to serve Guru Amar Das Ji? Also, Guru Amar Das Ji was under no obligation to transfer Guruship to Bhai Jetha Ji because He had not made any such promise. History bears testimony to the fact that Bhai Jetha Ji was a very noble soul who always respected the will of the Guru. By the time Guruship was to be passed on to some deserving candidate, Bhai Jetha Ji had completely overcome his ego, and other five natural forces - lust, rage, greed, attachment, and vanity. He was the most deserving candidate for Guruship. Also, if Bhai Jetha Ji did get Guruship because of the Promise, there must be thousands of Sodhis at that time, what did the other Sodhis get? Was the Promise specically made for Bhai Jetha Ji?

1. In couplet 2/28 given earlier, the author writes that Waheguru Himself started Sanaudh Dynasty. But he forgot, the Dynasty, he is describing was Sodhi after the name of the son of Kaal Kat, and not Sanaudh. When people write fiction, they tend to forget things. That is what has happened here too.
2. Whatever was written by any of the Gurus, was in the interest of the masses so t they may improve their lives by following the teachings of the Gurus. Even if the story of the two Dynasties is true, what purpose does it serve to improve the lives of people?

The above discussion proves unequivocally, that this whole tale is imaginary and baseless. If we remove the curtain of blind faith from our eyes, it will become absolutely clear that this fairy tale-like story of the two Dynasties cannot be the creation of the ninth successor ( the Tenth Master) to the World Guru - Guru Nanak. It is possible that some people may try to twist the facts to prove it to be the writing of the Tenth Master, but this whole composition is so opposed to the Principles of Gurbani, and is also so weak from scientific point of view that it is impossible to have been written by the Tenth Master.

[chatanga]

yeah, bhaji, im asking what you personally beleive to be more historically significant to the Panth. Sri KesGarh Sahib or Sri Hemkunt Sahib?

[jashb]

It's not just that Veer. The missionaries totally deny the previous lives of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Ram Das Ji as detailed in Sri Dasam Granth.

To give you an idea of what these missionaries like Ghagga and Dhunda think, this is what the missionares are handing out in their leaflets at the Singh Sabha Gurdwara's in Alberta and probably other provinces and Dashmesh Darbar Gurdwara's in North America and also Singh Sabha Gurdwara's in England probably

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE BEDI AND THE SODHI DYNASTIES:

The Bachittar Naatak describes the History of the Bedi and the Sodhi dynasties as follows. Lord Ram Chander Ji had two sons - Luv, and Kush. Kaal Rai, a descendent of Luv, and Kaal Kate, a descendent of Kush developed some uneasy disagreement. Kaal Kate defeated Kaal Rai who fled to the State of Sanaudh where he married the daughter of the State ruler. A son was born to Kaal Rai who was named Sodhi. That is how, the Sodhi dynasty started. After some time, the Sodhis, who were the descendents of Luv, attacked the state of Kaal Kate, and defeated the Kushis who fled to Benaras. The Kushis studied Vedas for a number of years at Benaras, and came to be called as Vedis or Bedis. After sometime, the Sodhis invited the Bedis back to their State. The Bedis narrated the Vedas to the Sodhi ruler - first the three Vedas, Yajur, Rig, and the Saam - and then the fourth, Atherban. The reigning Sodhi was very happy to listen to the Vedas because all his sins were washed away by listening. He was so happy that he left the throne, gave it to the Bedis, and banished the city to go to some forest to lead the life of a hermit. The Bedis were very happy to get the power, and they promised that when he (we could not understand which one of the Bedis) would be born as Guru Nanak in Kal Yug, he would also give the Guruship to the Sodhis. And just as he was given the power after listening to the fourth Veda after the first three, he too would give the Guruship to the Sodhis, after three gurus, starting with the fourth. (What a ridiculous story!)

2/28 Kaal Kate bhayo bali apara. Kaal Rai jin nagar nikara.

Bhaaj Sanaudh des te gaye. Tahi bhoop ja biahat bhaye.

2/29 Tih te pootter bhayo jo dhama. Sodhi Rai dhara tih nama.

Bans Sanaudh ta din te theeya. Param Pavitter purakh ju keeya. (God Himself started the Sanaudh Dynasty)

3/32 Luvi serb jeete Kushi serb haare. ...... (The Kushis fled to Benaras)

Chatur Bed pathiyang keeyo Kashi basang.

Ghanne barakh keene taha hi nivasang.

After sometime, the Sodhis invited the Bedis back. The latter narrated the Vedas to the Sodhis.

4/4. Atther bed pathiyang. Sunne paap nathiyang.

Raha reejh Raja. Deeya serb saaja

4/5. Layo ban basang. Maha paap nasang.

Rikhing bhes keeyang. Tisse raj deeyang

4/7. Bedi bhayo persann raj keh payekai.

Dait bhayo berdaan hiye hulsayekai

Jab Nanak Kal mein hum aan kahaye hai.

Ho jagatpooj ker tohi perm pud paye hein

4/9 Tritiye Bed sunbe tum kiya. Chatur Bed sun bhoo ko diya.

Teen janam humhoon jab dher hai. Chauthe janam guru tohi ker hai.

This tale has so many weak, and ridiculous points that it is a big disrespect to the Great Tenth Master if it is attributed to Him as His writing. It will require a large space to discuss all of them. Only a few important points are presented below for the consideration of the readers.

• What was so special about Sodhi Rai that Waheguru, Himself, started his dynasty? (See couplet 2/29 above). Who started all other dynasties? Because the Tenth Master was a Sodhi, the author some how tried to relate Him to Shri Ram Chander Ji so as to elevate the importance of the Sodhis. He also tried to relate Bedis to Shri Ram Chander for the same reason. To do so, he had to concoct a very flimsy story. Obviously, he did not realize that the Bedis and the Sodhis are respected not because they are the descendents of Kush and Luv - the sons of Shri Ram Chander - but because the First Guru was a Bedi and the last seven Gurus were all Sodhis.
• The Tenth Master strongly disapproved the use of castes and subcastes with the names because that aroused the sense of superiority among some people. That is why He made it mandatory for all Sikhs to use the word “Singh” as their last name. So, why would He describe the imaginary history of the Bedi and the Sodhi Dynasties violating His own principles?
• No other Guru ever mentioned their castes or subcastes. Guru Nanak was revered by all the people who came in His contact, not because He was a Bedi, but because He treated their misery, and showered them with love.
• The same Naatak describes the long and hard worship of God by the Tenth Master in His previous incarnation, and Waheguru sent Him to the Earth especially to spread His (God’s) Word. So, if the Sodhis were not promised Guruship, would not Gobind Rai be a Guru? Or, if Gobind Rai were to become Guru simply because of his birth in a Sodhi family as promised by the Bedis, why did he need to worship God?
• Guru Granth Sahib does not accept for a second that sins are eradicated by listening to the Vedas. On the contrary, the Gurbani maintains that the Vedas only classify what deeds are sinful and which are virtuous. In fact, people get more engrossed in Maya by following the Vedas. Consider the following sacred Shabads in this regard:

Sagli rain sovat gal fahi dinus janjaal gawaiya. .......

Saster Bed trai goon hai maya andhlau dhand kamayee. (Bharau M:1)

Bed baani jag vertada trai goon kerai vichar. Bin Naave jam dand sahhe mer janme vaaro vaar. Satgur bhete mukat hoye paaye mokh duar. (Malaar M:3 Ashatpadi)

Bed baad sabh aakh wakhane. Na unter bheeje na Shabad pachhane. Punn paap sabh Bed drirhaya Gurmukh Amrit peeje hey. (Maaru Solhe M:3)

Bed Puraan sabh dekhe joye. Oohan tao jayeay jau eehan na hoye. (Basant Rama Nand Ji)

As is clear from the above sacred Shabads, let alone listening to the Vedas, even acting on them does not rid one of his sins. But let us suppose for a second, it does. Then the question arises: listening to which of the Vedas dispelled the sins of the Sodhi Ruler? Was it only the last Ved - Atherban, or were it all the four Vedas? If only the last Ved was capable of dispelling the sins, then there was no need to listen to the other three. And if it was all the four Vedas, then what sense does it make that the Bedis read the first three Vedas first, and then the fourth, so Guru Nanak would follow the same logic, and would give the Guruship to the Sodhis starting with the Fourth Guru? When four books are to be read - one at a time - what other way is there to read them? Why did the author write three and then the fourth? Why not in turn? Or, why not one and three, or two and two? This logic of three and then the fourth has absolutely no rationale.

• What sins had the Sodhi Ruler committed which were eradicated? Even if he had committed some, was it natural for him to abdicate his rule? Was not it more natural for him to reward the Bedis in some other form?
• At that time, what was so great about the Bedis that one of them ( and we do not know which one) knew that he would be born as Guru Nanak hundreds of thousands of years later? According to the Naatak, the Tenth Master had to really work very hard for a long time to please God; what had a Bedi done, other than reading the Vedas, that he qualified to be born as the Greatest Guru - Guru Nanak?
• If we are correct, only the Brahmans had the right to study Vedas. The Kushis were Khattris; so how did they earn the right to study Vedas?
• Also, the academics who are knowledgeable about one Ved are called Bedis, those who have the knowledge of two Vedas, are called Dubedis (or Dubes), having the knowledge of three Vedas are called Trivedis (or Tewaris), and those who know all the four Vedas, are called Chaturvedis (or Chaubes), and the last three are all Brahmans. Since, the Kushis had the knowledge of all the four Vedas, they should have been called Chaturvedis, and not just Bedis. Why is it that they were called only Bedis?
• According to the Hindu granths, the ages of various Yugas are roughly as follows: Satyug = 1728000 years. Treta = 1296000 years.

Duwaper = 864000 years. Kalyug = 432000 years.

The story under discussion took place in Treta yug. Why did it take hundreds of thousands of years for the Bedi to be born as Guru Nanak and to return the favour of the Sodhis? Even if this fairy tale is true, (and it has absolutely no ground to be true) why did the Sodhis have to wait that long? What good is a promise which is not delivered for millions of years?

According to the most reliable scientific estimates, the first human appeared on the Earth less than 200000 years ago. (Most estimates put the age at 100000 years). And according to the World Book Encyclopedia (1999) edition, the first Ved - Rig Ved - is less than 4000 years old, and the Atherban Ved is less than 3000 years old. So, how could the Bedis have narrated the Vedas millions of years ago?

• If it is believed that the Sodhis got Guruship because of that promise, what had the Trehans (Guru Angad’s subcaste) and the Bhallas (Guru Amar Das’ subcaste) done to earn Guruship? There is absolutely no mention in the Naatak of any promise made to the Trehans, and the Bhallas by the Bedi ruler that they would be given the Guruship. Why could not the Guruship atay with the Bedis for at least three generations? Obviously, the Guruship was awarded for high spiritual and moral qualities. We believe that the real author of the Naatak either could not concoct any story to cover this gap, or being an ordinary human being, completely forgot about this aspect.
• The Naatak writes about the transfer of Guruship to Guru Ram Daas Ji as follows:

5/8 Jab verdaan sama vahu aawa. Ram Das tab Guru kahaawa.

Tih berdaan puratan diya. Amar Das Surpur mag liya

Again, if the Guruship was to be awarded to Bhai Jetha ji (Guru Ram Das JI) based on the promise, why did He have to work so hard to serve Guru Amar Das Ji? Also, Guru Amar Das Ji was under no obligation to transfer Guruship to Bhai Jetha Ji because He had not made any such promise. History bears testimony to the fact that Bhai Jetha Ji was a very noble soul who always respected the will of the Guru. By the time Guruship was to be passed on to some deserving candidate, Bhai Jetha Ji had completely overcome his ego, and other five natural forces - lust, rage, greed, attachment, and vanity. He was the most deserving candidate for Guruship. Also, if Bhai Jetha Ji did get Guruship because of the Promise, there must be thousands of Sodhis at that time, what did the other Sodhis get? Was the Promise specically made for Bhai Jetha Ji?

• In couplet 2/28 given earlier, the author writes that Waheguru Himself started Sanaudh Dynasty. But he forgot, the Dynasty, he is describing was Sodhi after the name of the son of Kaal Kat, and not Sanaudh. When people write fiction, they tend to forget things. That is what has happened here too.
• Whatever was written by any of the Gurus, was in the interest of the masses so t they may improve their lives by following the teachings of the Gurus. Even if the story of the two Dynasties is true, what purpose does it serve to improve the lives of people?

The above discussion proves unequivocally, that this whole tale is imaginary and baseless. If we remove the curtain of blind faith from our eyes, it will become absolutely clear that this fairy tale-like story of the two Dynasties cannot be the creation of the ninth successor ( the Tenth Master) to the World Guru - Guru Nanak. It is possible that some people may try to twist the facts to prove it to be the writing of the Tenth Master, but this whole composition is so opposed to the Principles of Gurbani, and is also so weak from scientific point of view that it is impossible to have been written by the Tenth Master.

Thanks veerji for putting that leaflet up.

I've never really understood the so called "missionaries". I have, however, always recognised them as trouble makers and probable agents who try to steer conversations toward controversial and widely misunderstood issues to further division and friction.

I have met a few of their leaders in the UK. They struck me as weirdos; both extreme in viewpoint and outlook. These guys are one to two-man bands who have little to no following or influence in most of the UK. Widely avoided among the youth out here in London.

Worryingly, however, they have been very successful in cracking the committee of the biggest and arguably most powerful guru ghar outside India; Southall.

I understand that their true base is in North America though. The cd's that they hand out usually mention "Singh Sabha Canada". This influence manifests itself through the extreme views regarding Dasam Bani of many, otherwise normal, easy going, middle aged to elderly Sikhs there.

To me, that's a clear sign of brainwashing.

________________________________________________

One thing I have always noted about them is the strength of their propaganda machine. They seem to be able to produce cd's and literature at will; they produce hundreds to thousands of cd's of their favourite speakers like darshan ragi and thailand wala that promote their views to hand out for free at gurdwara's.

Their audience in the UK, up until now, I have only seen to be the elderly and practising Sikhs (those that incidentally control the gurdwara committees), who can understand panjabi well in both written and spoken format.

The leaflet that you posted above is their first propaganda piece I have seen that is seriously well written in english. No doubt Harinder Singh had a hand in that.

Their favourite topic is always attacking Dasam Bani.

________________________________________________

But this, veerji, is where the problem starts regarding this leaflet.

Whereas I do find it an unnecessarily anal piece, that really labours its point far too much, I do however agree with its bottom line message; that a person's genetic lineage is utterly irrelevant in front of a fair and just God. It is a person's kamai that matters.

So I have always been confused by the importance leant to the History of the Bedi and the Sodhi dynasties as evident from their inclusion in Bachittar Naatak.

I once asked an uncle who was supposed to be knowledgeable in Dasam Bani about this. His reply was not strong; it was along the lines of the purpose of the history is to show the honourable and/or royal nature of Dasam Patshah's genetic lineage.

But my thought remained; isn't the core message of Bani against the very idea of noble births and high castes?

My fear is that many readers will actually agree with that leaflet, or, at the very least, fail to see what us wrong with it.