#gursant #singh Causing Problems. #gap #turban

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Yeah, that's all good, but there is a reason that ad is produced - it is there to add not only the cutting edge of fashion to the GAP, but also to attract Sikhs to the store (reason why it is in Davis, CA as a location perhaps and other major cities where SIkhs happen to be consumers?).

Sikhs can make a choice to voice their opinions. What has to be understood is that companies go after your money. You encourage or discourage them by your purchases and feedback. I am not saying to do a protest. But a concerted effort in providing the GAP and other companies feedback on their advertising targeted to the community would get a change in the type of advertising. If the GAP learned that the Sikh community did not favor such ads, they could direct Mr. Ahluwalia to perhaps pose individually without a woman hanging off his body or perhaps take on a more conservative pose. Using such incidents as OPPORTUNITIES rather than FIGHTS is what the community has to move forward. Imagine if the Sikh community was so unified that it could politely present a request to the GAP, saying we represent XX thousand customers and XXX thousand more potential customers, would like to voice our feedback on this ad, present that they should modify the ads to be more conservative - if I was a store and knew this was a community willing to shell out the cash, I would make every effort to meet my customers' requests (more profit).

It's all good saying that it is Maya, Akal Purakh's Hukam and similar bypass logic - but a Sikh doesn't take the Sanyasi path, isolate himself/herself and do Simran while closing all 5 senses to the world while it drowns in acts of Kalyug. A Sikh, should be a lotus that floats on the water of the world, not floating above the world, completely detached from it. If that were the case, then Sikhism has no cause to exist - the Siphai concept is very very much rooted in having your senses act on the indiscretions of the world. Never judge - sure. But what do you tell your kids? So lets say Nikka Singh and Piddi Kaur start to idolize Mr. Ahluwalia and then find other pictures of him in not so conservative poses - then? Will we be there to say, "It's all Akaal Purakkh's Hukam then?" Will we utter those words when our daughters are scantily clad draping themselves over men because it was ok in these ads? These ads are not so minor - they leave an impact on impressionable youth as the cool thing. If the parents do not put up a block and keep aloof of such things, the kids may very well emulate these things and become another sad chapter in our history. Yes, Akaal Purakh is in all and all acts, but that does not mean that God gave the Sikhs (Prageteyo Khalsa Parmatam Ki Mauj) permission to engage in all acts of human capacity. Yes, the Almighty is Namaskar Jog for his Bhog Bhogae (enjoyment of all pleasures) - doesn't mean the Sikh emulates it.

Yes, the standards for every person with a Sikhi appearance is high - sorry, that is how the game is played. Yes, most will not meet those standards (in fact, only those Puran Gursikh/Mahapurakhs approach that perfection), but that does not mean we fail to identify that something is not correct and blindly applaud what is being portrayed. It is should not be a punitive "burn him at the stake", but at least a study in what is occurring within our community and whether it is appropriate. We should at least be able to discern what is right and wrong per Gurmat right? The excuse that Mr. Ahluwalia is not Amritdhari won't work. He is representing the Sikh image and I am 110% sure he knows that. It does not make sense at one point to say that he is doing a huge favor to the Sikh community (by virtue of his appearance) and in the same breath then say that he is not Amritdhari - that are opposing statements.

[N30S1NGH]

Ms514 bhaji, i will respond to your points soon. But in the meantime, can you please comment on the recent picture below as well? Jagmeet singh is sikh ndp mp (come across as sikh ndp mp) with lot of sikh supporters- he is doing fanaistic work raising human rights issues of 1984 while he is doing his own job.

Should we protest and rally against him too while knowing good work he is done and there is too much (1984 human right issues) at stake?

[jaspreet1]

I do not know who gave you your lesson's on how to understand Gurbani, but you really need to rethink your whole basic understanding of Gurbani.

First, you can confirm with any Gurmukh and they will tell you, your understanding of Hukam does not make sense whatsoever. Guru ji with so much love says everything is your Hukam as I can ONLY ASK. Guru ji says do ardas before the Supreme Being as you cannot issue commands (Hukams) to him. I would love to discuss what everything is Hukam further, but I will really take this discussion off track. Work it out yourself or get help from someone that will be honest with you. I am being honest, but you already hold a biased view against me and their is an audience here where you are trying to keep your image.

Secondly, you are stepping so close to doing Gurbani beadbi by presenting manipulated selected lines of Gurbani and then wrapping them around your thinking. Once again you are expressing vedas thought and not Sikhi.

I know a story of a Nanaksar Baba that listened to a certain artist who sang very dirty songs, but I am not sure if it's completely true so I won't go any further with mentioning names. But the point here is that Sikhs do not go out of their way to listen to dirty songs for the fact of trying to "see the Supreme Being in them" In the same way Sikhs don't go out of their way to indulge in the same behaviour as Waris did and then try to find the "Supreme Being in them" Here is another example Sikhs are told not to worship stone idols by Gurbani. So Sikhs don't go and worship stone idols and then justify by saying "I am trying to see the Supreme Being in this stone Idol" Instuctions have been given not to worship stones. Instructions also have been given not to step in the maya (intentionall listen to dirty songs, etc) as your face will be blackened with the maya and it will stick (destroy you) to you.

If maya was namaksar by Guru Gobind Singh Ji then today there would be a platform next to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji with very scantily clad images or something of this sort and Sikhs would be bowing down to it. But such things don't exist and you need to rethink on how to interpret Gurbani. We do not namaksar Shiva's ling or maya anything.

[jaspreet1]

Ms514 bhaji, i will respond to your points soon. But in the meantime, can you please comment on the recent picture below as well? Jagmeet singh is sikh ndp mp (come across as sikh ndp mp) with lot of sikh supporters- he is doing fanaistic work raising human rights issues of 1984 while he is doing his own job.

Should we protest and rally against him too while knowing good work he is done and there is too much (1984 human right issues) at stake?

What Jagmeet Singh does not always represent the Sikhs, though the outside world will see it that way. Maharaja Ranjit Singh marrying a Muslim woman did not represent Sikhi. Akali Phula Singh did not look if Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a King. Akali Phula Singh read out a punishment for the King after committing a wrong act. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was also doing an excellent job of protecting Sikhi interest at such a unstable time.

I am not saying Jagmeet Singh deserves punishment for the above photo, but making a point that upholding Sikhi teachings takes precedents over temporal Sikh affairs, which even include wars or receiving justice for temporal affiars.

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

N30 Bhai Sahib, your kamai may be bearing fruit - you are becoming AntarJami and looking into my mind. :biggrin2:

I had this picture in mind when responding to this topic. First, I am going to again reiterate that I am not in favor of a protest. But discerning right from wrong, and as a community, approaching individuals of the community to gently advise if something is not within Gurmat (and that applies to Mr. Ahluwalia). Bhai Jagmeet Singh has done more seva in a few minutes that I probably can do in 1000 lifetimes. BUT that does not absolve him from review by the Sikhs he represents.

We must again apply the test of Gurmat - is the cover within the scope of treating the women in contact with his person like sisters/mothers/daughters? He has women next to him, and I cannot see that the woman in the black dress is making physical contact with him (can't see her arm through his arms). It appears that they are not engaging in physical contact with him in a fashion that can be seen as provocative. It is not in the same category as Mr. Ahluwalia from the overall setup (clearly making physical contact with him). Yes, it is "interesting" that only women are being portrayed along Bhai Sahib, and I think he would be best served to express very careful judgement on any media shots he is the spotlight of and keep the principle of mothers/daughters/sisters in mind at all times. The better question for all to ask at all times is if we believe that Guru Sahib is with us at all times (Gur Mere Sang Sadaa Hai Nalae), would what we are doing be considered appropriate?

Now, what this should not turn into is a "What about this picture" scenario where every picture of a Sikh with a woman is reviewed. The test of Gurmat is there and can be applied by all. Similarly, we have the reference of Mahapurakhs such as Baba Nand SIngh, who instructed all Bibian that were coming to the thaath that they should be accompanied by a brother or male relative so as to preserve a decent, respectful atmosphere conducive to Bhagti and not conducive to the Punj Vikaars. We have Baba Harnaam Singh Rampur Khera, who was given the lesson to always look down at his feet by an elder Gursikh, which he stated saved him from a lot of vikaars. We should at least look up those role models that have achieved something truly in Sikhi and attempt to better our lives based on their life.

[N30S1NGH]

But a concerted effort in providing the GAP and other companies feedback on their advertising targeted to the community would get a change in the type of advertising. If the GAP learned that the Sikh community did not favor such ads, they could direct Mr. Ahluwalia to perhaps pose individually without a woman hanging off his body or perhaps take on a more conservative pose.

Using such incidents as OPPORTUNITIES rather than FIGHTS is what the community has to move forward. Imagine if the Sikh community was so unified that it could politely present a request to the GAP, saying we represent XX thousand customers and XXX thousand more potential customers, would like to voice our feedback on this ad, present that they should modify the ads to be more conservative - if I was a store and knew this was a community willing to shell out the cash, I would make every effort to meet my customers' requests (more profit).

There is nothing wrong with particular ad in question, there are only handful of people with right wing mindset have issues with it, trying to super impose themselves on rest of the panth and pass it off as beadhi by acting like sikh community representatives. In blunt terms, this is called hijacking sikh interest.

I think we all can agree to contact sri akaal takth sahib on this particular ad. Let them pass their finding, will take it from there.

It's all good saying that it is Maya, Akal Purakh's Hukam and similar bypass logic - but a Sikh doesn't take the Sanyasi path, isolate himself/herself and do Simran while closing all 5 senses to the world while it drowns in acts of Kalyug. A Sikh, should be a lotus that floats on the water of the world, not floating above the world, completely detached from it.

Yes, sikh does not take sanyasi path nor it takes radical approach. Sikh is balanced path and looks at a big picture.

But what do you tell your kids? So lets say Nikka Singh and Piddi Kaur start to idolize Mr. Ahluwalia and then find other pictures of him in not so conservative poses - then? Will we be there to say, "It's all Akaal Purakkh's Hukam then?" Will we utter those words when our daughters are scantily clad draping themselves over men because it was ok in these ads? These ads are not so minor - they leave an impact on impressionable youth as the cool thing. If the parents do not put up a block and keep aloof of such things, the kids may very well emulate these things and become another sad chapter in our history

Seriously are we that insecure, faithless, incomptent and that spiritually bankrupt? Nikka Singh and piddi kaur wouldn't idiolize mr alhuwalia at the first place, given the fact they were given right gurmat teaching, starting meditation from early age, shown gurmat concept in conception/in pratical terms by parent themselves and sangat in gurdwara.

So lets blame bad parenting on some gap advert? It's called band aid fixes, cheap cop out instead of addressing root problem sir.

Yes, Akaal Purakh is in all and all acts, but that does not mean that God gave the Sikhs (Prageteyo Khalsa Parmatam Ki Mauj) permission to engage in all acts of human capacity. Yes, the Almighty is Namaskar Jog for his Bhog Bhogae (enjoyment of all pleasures) - doesn't mean the Sikh emulates it.

Who said god gave sikhs premission? I posted in contexualization - everything is part of hakum and nothing is outside so lets stop having overly hue and cry over this, draw swords over this (gursant singh seem pretty serious about actual protest).

Yes, the standards for every person with a Sikhi appearance is high - sorry, that is how the game is played. Yes, most will not meet those standards (in fact, only those Puran Gursikh/Mahapurakhs approach that perfection), but that does not mean we fail to identify that something is not correct and blindly applaud what is being portrayed.

Mahapurakhs and puran gursikhs realizes the actual maya game being played, their duties and hakum of akaal purkh. They would neither oppose nor endorse the gap add in its entirely and go with flow as its in sri akaal ustat. Rest assured, they wouldn't loose their sleep over it, start lobbying campaigning, complaning, protesting etc. They wouldn't even talk about this in katha, as they would have more mesmerizing things of gurbani to share and let gurbani kick in it effects- draw the people in automatically than christian type fear mongering.

It is should not be a punitive "burn him at the stake", but at least a study in what is occurring within our community and whether it is appropriate. We should at least be able to discern what is right and wrong per Gurmat right?

Yes agreed. According to my research under lining factor which plays important in gurmat is intentions of individual, circumstances surrounding it.

The excuse that Mr. Ahluwalia is not Amritdhari won't work. He is representing the Sikh image and I am 110% sure he knows that.

So as radicals of panth, they are threatning violence, intimidation, bullying all over the facebook. Not even one single condemnation statement from right wing group yet they all seem up in arms over some gap ad. PETA animal right groups do same,screaming murder murder yet wearing leather shoes in protest.

I already know and most sane sikhs know whats the important issue between two. One has deeper roots, other can be addressed by parchar- meditation simran camps, gurmat mysticism, spirituality etc.

It does not make sense at one point to say that he is doing a huge favor to the Sikh community (by virtue of his appearance) and in the same breath then say that he is not Amritdhari - that are opposing statements.

Hows that opposing unless off course you think only amrtidhari singhs are allowed to do huge favor to sikh community- what about non amritdhari shaheeds of the panth? what about non amritdhari sevadars in gurdwara? what about non amritdhari journalist/mps who contributed in sikh human right issues? what about non amritdhari who wrote sikh research books? what about non amritdhari who is doing sri dasam granth sahib research? what about non amritdharis who contributed one way or another in anandpur sahib resolution? There are plenty of examples.

[Singh559]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Yeah, that's all good, but there is a reason that ad is produced - it is there to add not only the cutting edge of fashion to the GAP, but also to attract Sikhs to the store (reason why it is in Davis, CA as a location perhaps and other major cities where SIkhs happen to be consumers?).

Sikhs can make a choice to voice their opinions. What has to be understood is that companies go after your money. You encourage or discourage them by your purchases and feedback. I am not saying to do a protest. But a concerted effort in providing the GAP and other companies feedback on their advertising targeted to the community would get a change in the type of advertising. If the GAP learned that the Sikh community did not favor such ads, they could direct Mr. Ahluwalia to perhaps pose individually without a woman hanging off his body or perhaps take on a more conservative pose. Using such incidents as OPPORTUNITIES rather than FIGHTS is what the community has to move forward. Imagine if the Sikh community was so unified that it could politely present a request to the GAP, saying we represent XX thousand customers and XXX thousand more potential customers, would like to voice our feedback on this ad, present that they should modify the ads to be more conservative - if I was a store and knew this was a community willing to shell out the cash, I would make every effort to meet my customers' requests (more profit).

It's all good saying that it is Maya, Akal Purakh's Hukam and similar bypass logic - but a Sikh doesn't take the Sanyasi path, isolate himself/herself and do Simran while closing all 5 senses to the world while it drowns in acts of Kalyug. A Sikh, should be a lotus that floats on the water of the world, not floating above the world, completely detached from it. If that were the case, then Sikhism has no cause to exist - the Siphai concept is very very much rooted in having your senses act on the indiscretions of the world. Never judge - sure. But what do you tell your kids? So lets say Nikka Singh and Piddi Kaur start to idolize Mr. Ahluwalia and then find other pictures of him in not so conservative poses - then? Will we be there to say, "It's all Akaal Purakkh's Hukam then?" Will we utter those words when our daughters are scantily clad draping themselves over men because it was ok in these ads? These ads are not so minor - they leave an impact on impressionable youth as the cool thing. If the parents do not put up a block and keep aloof of such things, the kids may very well emulate these things and become another sad chapter in our history. Yes, Akaal Purakh is in all and all acts, but that does not mean that God gave the Sikhs (Prageteyo Khalsa Parmatam Ki Mauj) permission to engage in all acts of human capacity. Yes, the Almighty is Namaskar Jog for his Bhog Bhogae (enjoyment of all pleasures) - doesn't mean the Sikh emulates it.

Yes, the standards for every person with a Sikhi appearance is high - sorry, that is how the game is played. Yes, most will not meet those standards (in fact, only those Puran Gursikh/Mahapurakhs approach that perfection), but that does not mean we fail to identify that something is not correct and blindly applaud what is being portrayed. It is should not be a punitive "burn him at the stake", but at least a study in what is occurring within our community and whether it is appropriate. We should at least be able to discern what is right and wrong per Gurmat right? The excuse that Mr. Ahluwalia is not Amritdhari won't work. He is representing the Sikh image and I am 110% sure he knows that. It does not make sense at one point to say that he is doing a huge favor to the Sikh community (by virtue of his appearance) and in the same breath then say that he is not Amritdhari - that are opposing statements.

The ad wasn't produced to get Sikh customers, all Gap chains have this image. Please see the first few pages where n30 posted a facebook link of a Gap employee's story of a racist lady ranting going viral, it in effect educated A LOT of people on Sikhi by merely googling who Sikhs are. When they google who Sikhs are they will see exactly who Sikhs are, not what kind of gandh Waris does on his own time. In that picture he is merely a Sikh individual with his wife (in my eyes).

If anything, they may have lost business because of it, but they made a bold positive statement by taking this risk in promoting plurality. Frankly speaking we don't have the organization as a Panth nor would we have the voice to be sought after as customers by a large corporation so the idea to protest will only cause them to not feature a Sikh in the future most likely.

If anything Mr Ahluwalia should individually be approached and ask him whether he could pose alone without a female to avoid getting bad press because once this hits the mainstream, I guarantee those involved in asking for the change will be viewed in a negative light, right or wrong, that's just how western society is.

So far your response has been the most level minded that not only I can take seriously, but also respect. Appreciate your feedback on the thread.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

N30 Bhai Sahib, your kamai may be bearing fruit - you are becoming AntarJami and looking into my mind. :biggrin2:

I had this picture in mind when responding to this topic. First, I am going to again reiterate that I am not in favor of a protest. But discerning right from wrong, and as a community, approaching individuals of the community to gently advise if something is not within Gurmat (and that applies to Mr. Ahluwalia). Bhai Jagmeet Singh has done more seva in a few minutes that I probably can do in 1000 lifetimes. BUT that does not absolve him from review by the Sikhs he represents.

We must again apply the test of Gurmat - is the cover within the scope of treating the women in contact with his person like sisters/mothers/daughters? He has women next to him, and I cannot see that the woman in the black dress is making physical contact with him (can't see her arm through his arms). It appears that they are not engaging in physical contact with him in a fashion that can be seen as provocative. It is not in the same category as Mr. Ahluwalia from the overall setup (clearly making physical contact with him). Yes, it is "interesting" that only women are being portrayed along Bhai Sahib, and I think he would be best served to express very careful judgement on any media shots he is the spotlight of and keep the principle of mothers/daughters/sisters in mind at all times. The better question for all to ask at all times is if we believe that Guru Sahib is with us at all times (Gur Mere Sang Sadaa Hai Nalae), would what we are doing be considered appropriate?

Thank you for pointing that out, that's the main thing that really put me off and inspired me to make this thread. Gursant isn't level minded at all and IF someone were to start promoting a more Sikh-like image in the mainstream, it must be done by intelligent individuals who can speak in the mainstream without looking like a joke by both our own community and the general public - I can not think of anyone currently who is up for the job, nor do I know exactly how this would be done.

------------

Hypothetically speaking, what if someone who is not your wife asks to take a picture with you and asks to hug you during the picture. Is that also considered anti Gurmat since she is touching you and isn't your wife? If a GurSikh is like the kamal who remains untouched by the filth of the world, would he have any reason to object? I think if someone objected it would show suppression more than anything which can be worse in some cases.I can think of Baba Fauja Singh ji (the 102 year old runner) where he hugs some gorian and openly talks about it in a humorous manner, now is everyone going to say Fauja Singh is indulging in kaam? No way, that's ridiculous. Yes, I know that Waris probably is indulging in anti-Sikh behavior, but isolating this particular picture - i still stand firm that it is not provocative. The only possible issue I can see is that she is touching his dastar, but I said it before that if a wife can help do pagh di pooni (for those who tie nok dastaaran) why can't she touch it if given permission? I just see the picture as an artistic portrayal of a Sikh couple and that's exactly what Gap was going for.

[jaspreet1]

There is nothing wrong with particular ad in question, there are only handful of people with right wing mindset have issues with it, trying to super impose themselves on rest of the panth and pass it off as beadhi by acting like sikh community representatives. In blunt terms, this is called hijacking sikh interest.

MS514 wrote to you in a respectful tone and then you go and lash out at him!!! Learn how to respect others and not twist what they are saying. You are such a "show off" who is doing all of this for the audience here and nothing more.

[N30S1NGH]

I do not know who gave you your lesson's on how to understand Gurbani, but you really need to rethink your whole basic understanding of Gurbani.

First, you can confirm with any Gurmukh and they will tell you, your understanding of Hukam does not make sense whatsoever. Guru ji with so much love says everything is your Hukam as I can ONLY ASK. Guru ji says do ardas before the Supreme Being as you cannot issue commands (Hukams) to him. I would love to discuss what everything is Hukam further, but I will really take this discussion off track. Work it out yourself or get help from someone that will be honest with you. I am being honest, but you already hold a biased view against me and their is an audience here where you are trying to keep your image.

Secondly, you are stepping so close to doing Gurbani beadbi by presenting manipulated selected lines of Gurbani and then wrapping them around your thinking. Once again you are expressing vedas thought and not Sikhi.

I never gave my thesis on hakum. It's deep subject i m still researching - so far looked deeply in akhan jor pauri and also saying from englightened being which goes something like this- You can will what you want but you cannot will what you will indicating backdrops always remains pre-ordained from picking of glass of water to words coming out or thoughts in vivek buddhi.

There is no vedas interpretation, there is basic contextualization of shabad, flow and interpretation done from non dual advait aspect which i don't expect Anglican/evangelical thought to understand anyway. In fact, anglican/evangelican mindset missionary people think they support dasam bani- sri akaal ustat- jaap sahib etc, but deep truly inside they probably don't as they have rain of doubts, have many theological, ontological framework issues within to work out.

[Singh559]

This story comes to mind in addition to my post:

Two monks were making a pilgrimage to venerate the relics of a great Saint. During the course of their journey, they came to a river where they met a beautiful young woman -- an apparently worldly creature, dressed in expensive finery and with her hair done up in the latest fashion. She was afraid of the current and afraid of ruining her lovely clothing, so asked the brothers if they might carry her across the river.

The younger and more exacting of the brothers was offended at the very idea and turned away with an attitude of disgust. The older brother didn't hesitate, and quickly picked the woman up on his shoulders, carried her across the river, and set her down on the other side. She thanked him and went on her way, and the brother waded back through the waters.

The monks resumed their walk, the older one in perfect equanimity and enjoying the beautiful countryside, while the younger one grew more and more brooding and distracted, so much so that he could keep his silence no longer and suddenly burst out, "Brother, we are taught to avoid contact with women, and there you were, not just touching a woman, butcarrying her on your shoulders!"

The older monk looked at the younger with a loving, pitiful smile and said, "Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river; you are still carrying her."