Is Guru Granth Sahib Your Teacher / Guide Or Is It A Diety

[jaspreet1 92]

Go for it, but as I said before, it comes down to interpretation. There are passages in Guru Ji about reincarnation, and also passages about heaven and hell. Are we take both of these literally? That would conflict with each other, so at least one of them has to be a metaphor or have a deeper meaning behind it. The point I'm trying to make veerji, is don't take Gurbani at face value - it is poetry, the most beautiful poetry ever written, and as with all poetry, uses poetical devices to illustrate its point.

There are poems written on science. These poems on science are all factual. But why use poetic form to write science? Why write any message in poetic form? People with less knowledge would not take these poems written on science at face value. Simply because the facts are written in poetic form. With time i can see a lot more ignorance taking place. As many more people will call science false just because some writers have taken a poetic way to convey a message on science.

Something written in poetic form does not make the whole statement just a metaphor with half truths in it. This is one of the biggest mistakes any person can make when reading Gurbani or science for that matter. Poetry can be used to express the truth as it is used in Gurbani and science. Poetic form delivers the message home a lot quicker and sticks in the mind a lot longer. In Gurbani poetic form is used to instill a true message in a person.

Also absolute statement is a statement which cannot be wrong. Here is an example of an absolute statement:

​It will be sunny all day today.

In this statement there is no uncertainty on how the weather will be today or room for interpretation. The interpretation of this absolute statement is simple as today it will be sunny all day. If a person like you came along and said, "I interpret this absolute statement to say that the writer was saying it will be partially sunny today." Then every person that understands absolute statements will know you disagree with the absolute statement. No one that understands absolute statements will say you interpret it differently because there is only one clear interpretation of such statements.

Here is Gurbani in a absolute statement saying Guru is God:

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥

Gur Nānak Nānak har so▫e. ||4||7||9||

Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9|| ang 864

[sunnyji 21]

There are poems written on science. These poems on science are all factual. But why use poetic form to write science? Why write any message in poetic form? People with less knowledge would not take these poems written on science at face value. Simply because the facts are written in poetic form. With time i can see a lot more ignorance taking place. As many more people will call science false just because some writers have taken a poetic way to convey a message on science.

Something written in poetic form does not make the whole statement just a metaphor with half truths in it. This is one of the biggest mistakes any person can make when reading Gurbani or science for that matter. Poetry can be used to express the truth as it is used in Gurbani and science. Poetic form delivers the message home a lot quicker and sticks in the mind a lot longer. In Gurbani poetic form is used to instill a true message in a person.

Also absolute statement is a statement which cannot be wrong. Here is an example of an absolute statement:

​It will be sunny all day today.

In this statement there is no uncertainty on how the weather will be today or room for interpretation. The interpretation of this absolute statement is simple as today it will be sunny all day. If a person like you came along and said, "I interpret this absolute statement to say that the writer was saying it will be partially sunny today." Then every person that understands absolute statements will know you disagree with the absolute statement. No one that understands absolute statements will say you interpret it differently because there is only one clear interpretation of such statements.

Here is Gurbani in a absolute statement saying Guru is God:

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥

Gur Nānak Nānak har so▫e. ||4||7||9||

Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9|| ang 864

Poetry is used to deliver a message in a particular style. Gurbani was written at a time when the most prominent members of society were uneducated, illiterate Hindus and Muslims. These people would not understand Guru Nanak's philosophy as it was, it was so revolutionary and amazing that they simply wouldn't comprehend it all! Thus, metaphors and literacy devices were used to convey the message via poetry.

Also, what constitutes an "absolute statement" is subjective. To you, this may an absolute statement, but to me, it is not. I see it as poetic metaphor to describe the fact that Nanak was the most perfectly realised soul - he has soul had totally united with his Creator, the almighty Akaal Purakh. Thus Nanak "was" God in the sense that he had merged with the light of the Akaal, but he was not an incarnation of Waheguru, since Waheguru is beyond limiting physical form - and we realise Waheguru through the grace of the Guru. That's my understanding of it anyway, based on the Gurbani I've read and what I've studied of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's incredible philosophy, teachings, and way of life.

EDIT: Just come across the video posted by Basics of Sikhi, illusrates my point quite nicely about God having no form

[jaspreet1 92]

Poetry is used to deliver a message in a particular style. Gurbani was written at a time when the most prominent members of society were uneducated, illiterate Hindus and Muslims. These people would not understand Guru Nanak's philosophy as it was, it was so revolutionary and amazing that they simply wouldn't comprehend it all! Thus, metaphors and literacy devices were used to convey the message via poetry.

Also, what constitutes an "absolute statement" is subjective. To you, this may an absolute statement, but to me, it is not. I see it as poetic metaphor to describe the fact that Nanak was the most perfectly realised soul - he has soul had totally united with his Creator, the almighty Akaal Purakh. Thus Nanak "was" God in the sense that he had merged with the light of the Akaal, but he was not an incarnation of Waheguru, since Waheguru is beyond limiting physical form - and we realise Waheguru through the grace of the Guru. That's my understanding of it anyway, based on the Gurbani I've read and what I've studied of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's incredible philosophy, teachings, and way of life.

EDIT: Just come across the video posted by Basics of Sikhi, illusrates my point quite nicely about God having no form

Where do i begin. Show me where the literary devices are used in the Gurbani i presented?

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Break the line down and show me these literary devices in the above tuk.

Next absolute statements are not subjective. Show me where the subjectivity is in the example I gave you and the Gurbani tuk.

​It will be sunny all day today.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Break it down for me here.

Lastly, the singh in the video is speaking about God's form. We are speaking about Guru is God.

[sunnyji 21]

Where do i begin. Show me where the literary devices are used in the Gurbani i presented?

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Break the line down and show me these literary devices in the above tuk.

Next absolute statements are not subjective. Show me where the subjectivity is in the example I gave you and the Gurbani tuk.

​It will be sunny all day today.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Break it down for me here.

Lastly, the singh in the video is speaking about God's form. We are speaking about Guru is God.

I wasn't talking about literary devices in the specific part of Gurbani you quoted, I was talking generally about the fact that you can't take Gurbani at face value, you have to understand the meaning behind the message. I'm not very good at explaining myself here, but I came across an interesting article which explains what I'm trying to say:

http://dailysikhupdates.com/2013/09/22/the-use-of-metaphor-in-gurbani-and-how-to-understand-when-interpreting-shabads/

Furthermore, of course absolute statements are absoute, but re-read what I wrote - who defines what is an absolute statement and what is not? You may think that the line you quoted is absolute, but that is your opinion; personally, I do not think it is absolute. The subjectivity, as I said before, is that you believe it literally means the Guru is God as an incarnation or avatar, but I believe it means that the Guru has the light of Waheguru.

Yes, the Singh was speaking about God's form - and God is formless, exactly what I was saying, so it wouldn't make sense that God could be limited to physical boundaries.

[GPS 1,337]

Go for it, but as I said before, it comes down to interpretation. There are passages in Guru Ji about reincarnation, and also passages about heaven and hell. Are we take both of these literally? That would conflict with each other, so at least one of them has to be a metaphor or have a deeper meaning behind it. The point I'm trying to make veerji, is don't take Gurbani at face value - it is poetry, the most beautiful poetry ever written, and as with all poetry, uses poetical devices to illustrate its point.

How do you know that these things do not exist. Do you believe in existence of soul?

[sunnyji 21]

How do you know that these things do not exist. Do you believe in existence of soul?

I didn't say reincarnation doesn't exist. Yes, I do believe in the existence of the soul. What I was trying to say is that you can't take everything in Gurbani literally. For example, reincarnation is mentioned in Gurbani. Heaven and hell are also mentioned (by Bhagat Kabir Ji, if I'm not mistaken). Since these two ideas conflict with each other (because you can't have reincarnation AND heaven/hell), one of them must be metaphorical, used to describe a message.

[GPS 1,337]

I didn't say reincarnation doesn't exist. Yes, I do believe in the existence of the soul. What I was trying to say is that you can't take everything in Gurbani literally. For example, reincarnation is mentioned in Gurbani. Heaven and hell are also mentioned (by Bhagat Kabir Ji, if I'm not mistaken). Since these two ideas conflict with each other (because you can't have reincarnation AND heaven/hell), one of them must be metaphorical, used to describe a message.

If you believe in soul then there is reincarnation also unless your soul has blended with supreme soul. Who knows hell and heaven may

be transitional points on our journey to next life.

[sunnyji 21]

If you believe in soul then there is reincarnation also unless your soul has blended with supreme soul. Who knows hell and heaven may

be transitional points on our journey to next life.

Hmm, who knows I guess...although I was always under the impression that heaven/hell was used in Gurbani as metaphors to describe state of mind, or other stages of reincarnation:

ਕਵਨੁ ਨਰਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ਸੰਤਨ ਦੋਊ ਰਾਦੇ ||

ਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕਢਤੇ ਅਪਨੇ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੇ ||੫||

“What is hell, and what is heaven? The Saints reject them both. I have no obligation to either of them, by the Grace of my Guru. ||5||”

(Ang 969)

E.g. going through the 8.4 million life forms before reaching human is considered a metaphorical "hell":

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਨਰਕ ਨ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਰਸਕਿ ਰਸਕਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਈ ਹੇ ||੧੦||

Don’t get to see the 8.4 million hells, if you sing praises of Vaheguru with Anand, Rass (pleasure).

And "heaven" is being in a state of total unity and bliss with Akaal Purakh:

ਤਹਾ ਬੈਕੁੰਠੁ ਜਹ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਸਰਧਾ ਲਾਇਹਿ ॥੨॥

“That place is heaven, where the Lord’s Praises are sung. You Yourself instill faith into us. ||2||”

(Ang 749)

[GPS 1,337]

Sunny ji

The above quotes stress that in sikhi one should focus on god realization by meditation and should not worry about

afterlife. That is the goal of a sikh.Unlike other religions that play on nerves of their followers by punishment in hell

or reward in heaven, sikhi teaches us to lead our life under will Of god.

It does not reject heaven and hell.They may be there but a sikh is advised to take care of present and remember God.

Do not worry about afterlife reward or punishment.

[sunnyji 21]

Sunny ji

The above quotes stress that in sikhi one should focus on god realization by meditation and should not worry about

afterlife. That is the goal of a sikh.Unlike other religions that play on nerves of their followers by punishment in hell

or reward in heaven, sikhi teaches us to lead our life under will Of god.

It does not reject heaven and hell.They may be there but a sikh is advised to take care of present and remember God.

Do not worry about afterlife reward or punishment.

Very true indeed veerji, that was just me trying to interpret it and understand it but you're right, the key thing is to focus on now and live your life to the fullest - Kirat Karo, Naam Japo, Vand Chhako!

[AmanSingh1867 58]

There are poems written on science. These poems on science are all factual. But why use poetic form to write science? Why write any message in poetic form? People with less knowledge would not take these poems written on science at face value. Simply because the facts are written in poetic form. With time i can see a lot more ignorance taking place. As many more people will call science false just because some writers have taken a poetic way to convey a message on science.

Something written in poetic form does not make the whole statement just a metaphor with half truths in it. This is one of the biggest mistakes any person can make when reading Gurbani or science for that matter. Poetry can be used to express the truth as it is used in Gurbani and science. Poetic form delivers the message home a lot quicker and sticks in the mind a lot longer. In Gurbani poetic form is used to instill a true message in a person.

Also absolute statement is a statement which cannot be wrong. Here is an example of an absolute statement:

​It will be sunny all day today.

In this statement there is no uncertainty on how the weather will be today or room for interpretation. The interpretation of this absolute statement is simple as today it will be sunny all day. If a person like you came along and said, "I interpret this absolute statement to say that the writer was saying it will be partially sunny today." Then every person that understands absolute statements will know you disagree with the absolute statement. No one that understands absolute statements will say you interpret it differently because there is only one clear interpretation of such statements.

Here is Gurbani in a absolute statement saying Guru is God:

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥

Gur Nānak Nānak har so▫e. ||4||7||9||

Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9|| ang 864

Why are you taking single lines from Gurbani out of context? Post the entire Shabad and then we will have a better understanding of what is actually being said, I'm afraid you can't just take a single line out of context, twist the meaning and use it to support a position.

Oh, and Gurbani also talks about goblins, demons and other mythical creatures- please tell me you don't think they actually exist...

[Jonny101 4,461]

Oh, and Gurbani also talks about goblins, demons and other mythical creatures- please tell me you don't think they actually exist...

Satgur Ki Bani Sat Sat Kar Jano Gursikho

[jaspreet1 92]

Why are you taking single lines from Gurbani out of context? Post the entire Shabad and then we will have a better understanding of what is actually being said, I'm afraid you can't just take a single line out of context, twist the meaning and use it to support a position.

Oh, and Gurbani also talks about goblins, demons and other mythical creatures- please tell me you don't think they actually exist...

Then show me where I have so called twisted (taken out of context) the line. I know for a fact that I have not taken the line out of context. Also Gurbani interpretations are done by interpreting the Gurmukhi and not the english. Just a note in case you start interpreting the shabad.

[UKLondonSikh 180]

Jaspreet Bir'ay isn't the Mool Mantar the classic definition of an absolute statement?

Who did Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj exactly pray to (if not Akaal Purakh)?

Why do some Sikhs need to copy the Hindu's and Christians with their false beliefs regarding God appearing in human form as they claim with Jesus, Ram, Krishna etc?

Imho Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj makes an absolute statement that God is beyond human births as a baby that cannot feed itself and human bodies that die.

However, if you choose to believe differently then that does not lessen my respect for you as a fellow brother within a Panth where all of us (myself included) need to focus more on our fundamental Unity rather than our smaller ideological differences.

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

॥ ਜਪੁ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥1॥

Transliteration:

Ik oa(n)kaar sath naam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibha(n) gur prasaadh ॥

॥ jap ॥

aadh sach jugaadh sach ॥ hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach ॥1॥

One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace

[sunnyji 21]

Then show me where I have so called twisted (taken out of context) the line. I know for a fact that I have not taken the line out of context. Also Gurbani interpretations are done by interpreting the Gurmukhi and not the english. Just a note in case you start interpreting the shabad.

You have taken the message at face value without understanding the meaning behind it. If we started doing that with every line from Gurbani we'd all believe in goblins, demons, ghouls and worship the "Lord's Lotus Feet". We have to understand what the philosophy behind the poetry is.

Jaspreet Bir'ay isn't the Mool Mantar the classic definition of an absolute statement?

Who did Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj exactly pray to (if not Akaal Purakh)?

Why do some Sikhs need to copy the Hindu's and Christians with their false beliefs regarding God appearing in human form as they claim with Jesus, Ram, Krishna etc?

Imho Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj makes an absolute statement that God is beyond human births as a baby that cannot feed itself and human bodies that die.

However, if you choose to believe differently then that does not lessen my respect for you as a fellow brother within a Panth where all of us (myself included) need to focus more on our fundamental Unity rather than our smaller ideological differences.

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

॥ ਜਪੁ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥1॥

Transliteration:

Ik oa(n)kaar sath naam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibha(n) gur prasaadh ॥

॥ jap ॥

aadh sach jugaadh sach ॥ hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach ॥1॥

One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace

Agreed veerji, the Mool Mantar is the key to Gurbani, once you truly understand that the rest of the Guru Granth Sahib follows on naturally. I don't even like to use the word God to be honest, it makes people think of the Abrahamic definition of a man in the sky. Onkaar IS creation and extends timelessly throughout and beyond it. It has no form, is infinite, and beyond birth/death - it is not even remotely human in the slightest.

How, then, can the Gurus be avatars of Waheguru? What makes more sense to me is that the Gurus were enlightened in the sense that they truly understood the nature of Waheguru and had completely connected to it; they were an example of the perfect humans.