New Ravidas Movement Dera Bhallan

[Guest SinghSoorma]

Ravidass followers or Chamars Sikhs are not Sikhs. If they are Sikhs they should come to Sikh gurudwaras. My colleagues have rightly said that just by following Shri Guru Granth Sahib doesn't make them Sikh. And these people don't follow SGGS also properly. They adderss Ravidass as Guru who our beloved Sikh Gurus addressed as Bhagat.

And when we complain, they blame us saying that we practice caste system. How stupid can one more be?

If we tell them to come to our Sikh gurudwaras, donate there, follow Sikh rehit mariada and Amritdhari sajjo, they balk at it and start lecturing us about caste system. Where is caste here? If chamar sikhs beliecve in caste system, let them go to hell because our Sikh Guru Sahiban removed caste system.

Ditch Ravidass places. We don't need them. Be Sikhs, come to Sikh Gurughars, embrace Sikhi fullu, be part of a vibrant community rather than getting stuck in this caste thing. You guys not only hurt yourselevs, you are hurting Sikh religion also through your crying.

WJKK WJKF

Please don't call me casteist now. I am juste xpressing my feelings. Since I know lot of chamars who call themselves Sikhs, I know a lot. These so called chamar sikhs want to have everything of their own, don't follow Khanda, don't stop calling Ravidass as Guru and still they want us Sikh to help them in their stupid fights with their people. Sorry chamar sikhs, no luck here.

[Guest SinghSoorma]

Chamar sikh should never be supported by us Sikhs. They have destroyed our struggle for Khalistan. They have their own parallel gurudom and violating rehit marida everydaya nd don't follow Guru Granth Sahib by adderssing Ravidass as Guru. And when you question them, they call you manuwadi or bahmanwadi.

Let them rot in their no-mans land of being chamar-ravdassi and chamar sikh. Sikhi doesn't have chamar or ravdassi sikhs. It has only sikhs. If you follow SGGS then ditch these Ravdass gurudwaras. These places are not even gurdaras even so if you are sikh, then why poke your nose there?

[Guest Soormas jija]

Singhsoorma let them rot?? Would Guru maharaj want his Sikhs to say that about anyone?? Glad khalsa aid don't have ur ideology (Akaal) secondly it's Tara singhs fault not accepting low castes when they wanted to take amrit and become full Sikh but higher castes could not tolerate low castes being the high numbers...who lost out? Sikhi!! The panj pyare were low caste Beant Singh a chamar by birth gave it to indra ghandi for the Sikhs honour Sikhs!! . Bhagat Ravidass amazing read bani you will understand why I say this Guru or Bhagat has no distinctions grow a pair..also WHEREVER MAHARAJ Sri Guru Granth Sahib is that place is the Guru 's house learn Sikh history Guru ghars were not allways called Gurdwaras. My friend dalits compromise the bulk of sikhi yet they have no say in politics or anything it's a sad state of affairs to which only we can do something About,more so in India BUT INSTEAD OF MESSAGING YOURSELF ON THIS FORUM LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE U HAVE SINGHS THAT MAY LOOK LIKE U BUT ARE NAAMDHARI OR APART OF ANOTHER CULT rs living guru THEY ARE THE ONES Against Sikhs/Khalistan. You talk about ditching you peice of shyte yet we need sikhi to grow in numbers only then will Khalistan be realistic. Raj Karega Khalsa Get rid of your anger towards people who Continue to be oppressed but being strong willed They seek the Gurus jot. We all need to be together be universal that's Sikhi not your Singhsoorma behind a keyboard ways. GREAT IS GURU NANAK MAHARAJ PLEASE SHOWER ALL YOUR SIKHS WITH BLESSINGS and help those that have personal issues against their fellow kind.

Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru

[Guest SinghSoorma]

What person issues against fellow Sikhs? Soorma_jija, what the heck are you talking about. Making a name to belittle me won't help your new ravidass who you call guru. Remember we don't want shyte in Sikhism, we want those who consider SGGS as Guru and only 10 Sikh gurus. We don't want Ravidass Bhagat chelas who call him guru. We want quality in Sikhi. When quality is there, quantity would come. We don't want to bastardize/pollute our Sikhi with all "landi-buchi" from everywhere who have their own gurus and gurudoms.

There is a great distinction between guru and bhagat. A bhagat is chela of guru. Bhagat Ravdass was chela of Satguru Nanak Dev Ji to Satguru Gobind Singh. How can he be guru? When Guru Sahibs themselves called him bhagat, why are you bent on making him guru. GO to your bhawan and follow your new book, we don't want chelas. We want those who believe in Guru Gobind Singh Sahib's order "Apae gur chela". Each Sikh is as good as or better than bhagat because they take khandae di pauhal.

You are bent on increasing population of sikhi at the cost of quality. Maybe you don't understand the difference between quality and quantity that's why your likes mushroom like anything and then rot away and make your own new guru every 10 miles. Khalsa mero roop hai khaas. And bahagat ji is not khalsa. He doesn't deserve to be guru. So stop dreaming and again we want quality not "lundi-buchi" quantity.

[SheikhYoBooty]

^ "SinghSoorma" is the Hindu Troll aka tarisingh that dissed Sant Ji + called Sikhs low caste

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/77011-huge-violation-of-sikh-maryada-by-akali-congress-leaders-chandumarja-and-others-impose-tilak-on-guru-granth-sahib/page-2

[Guest SinghForYou]

^ "SinghSoorma" is the Hindu Troll aka tarisingh that dissed Sant Ji + called Sikhs low caste

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/77011-huge-violation-of-sikh-maryada-by-akali-congress-leaders-chandumarja-and-others-impose-tilak-on-guru-granth-sahib/page-2

How come to you everyone is a Hindu when you can not take the bitter truth?

I read that link you posted, I agree with majority of what is said by this guy but does that make me Hindu? Also remember Sikhi is religion of low castes otherwise why leave Hinduism? It just appears now these law castes are arguing over who is the highest caste within them lol. As for Ravidasia community, well they not Sikhs and never will be no disrespect - unless you want to hand over the keys to the Harmandir Sahib to them?

[Guest SinghSoorma]

And SheikhYoBooty, you are muslim in Sikh roop. Don't show you face which looks like Booty. I bet you are another chela of Ravdass who wants to call him guru. Get out of Sikhi and make you own religion. it is not a caste issue. We don't want gurus mushrooming in Sikhi. We have our Guru Granth Sahib and 10 gurus. And we don't need lundi-buchi like you in Sikhi.

[Guest SinghSoorma]

And bootyman, which bloody sant you are talking about...? I ain't knowing any sant-vant in Sikhi. I believe only in Guru Granth Sahib and 10 gurus sahibans. Maybe you believe in your santa-banta.

[SheikhYoBooty]

Posts 106, 107 and 108 by the same Hindu troll (tari kumar) who got exposed on this link:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/77011-huge-violation-of-sikh-maryada-by-akali-congress-leaders-chandumarja-and-others-impose-tilak-on-guru-granth-sahib/page-2

tarisingh, on 20 May 2015 - 15:19, said:

I have felt from your thread is that you are concerned more about Hindutva, RSS

1699 = Absolutely bir'ay I'm 100% concerned about the Hindutva opponents of the Sikh Panth (whose anti-Sikh viewpoint tallies identically with yours by the way) trying to make us Sikhs be left as a powerless minority of the Punjab population by the 2021 census as it would have huge negative implications for the Sikh Panth going forward.

Let me politely ask you, are you a Sikh or a chamar?

1699 = I am 100% Sikh and Sikh only. I do not believe in biraderi affiliation as you do. I believe Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was correct in stating that all biraderi affiliations and matrimonial apartheid need to be smashed with only one united Sangat Gurdwara in each pind.

1699 = But I understand that you are a Jatt who wishes to marry a Jatt spouse only (in other words ideologically you stand shoulder to shoulder with the Hindutva apartheid activists of Dera Ballan in terms of support for matrimonial apartheid).

Because from your discussion, it smells of the plan to pollute Sikhi

1699 = An interesting and incendiary usage of the word "pollute" Tari as that is the one word that Hinduism's lies about caste discrimination are primarily built upon.

with those who call Ravidass as Guru, bring them into Sikhi fold and create such a mess that Sikhi is destroyed from inside

1699 = How exactly would Sikhi be supposedly "destroyed" in your words by the Sikh Panth potentially becoming 100million strong within potentially a 16year time frame? The Truth of Sikhi is indestructible. No matter what any outside power tries, Truth cannot be destroyed. However, undoubtedly we as a Panth can do things the hard way or the easy way. We can (as you want us to) be a powerless minority, unable to protect ourselves and unable to meaningfully help others on a global scale. Or we can put the Khalsa Panth on the map through greater number thereby leading to a bigger Khalsa Fauj more ready and able to fight for Sarbat da Bhala. By the way, in case you hadn't noticed, in the 35 years since Damdami Taksal's fateful decision to support Congress (Indira) in the 1980 elections in which she regained power, the Panth has to all intents and purposes been destroyed from within via biraderi apartheid, illiteracy, female infanticide, drugs, alcohol, cancer and poverty.

Since they would already be in, mess is there and there goes our Sikhi down the drain.

1699 = How weak is your Sikhi that you would let the actions of others flush it down the drain for you? The state of our Panth strengthens via a greater population of the Sikh Panth. Your aim of reducing the Sikh population to as small a number as possible (as done by the SGPC in the last 70years) has cut the links of arguably 75million plus erstwhile Sikhs away from the Panth and converted them into new Hindu's ripe for manipulation as part of the Hindutva vote bank.

So you want all these * followers in and turn SIkhi upside down?

1699 = All those who have satkaar for Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Baba Kabir Ji Maharaj (as two great examples of those that wrote Gurbani within Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj) are already Sikhs. Sikhi will never be turned upside down by anybody as Gurmat is eternal Truth. It was people like yourself who pushed Dr Ambedkar away from Sikhi. In fact a greater population strength for a new enlarged Sikh Panth will help Sikhi actively expand fast throughout India and subsequently globally.

Destroy all its concepts and loose everything gained over 3 centuries and destroy everything

1699 = Gurmat cannot be destroyed. Truth cannot be destroyed. Sikhi cannot be destroyed. However, people like yourself have done a brilliant job in destroying and reducing the Sikh Panth's population and making our Panth a sitting duck for Genocide and becoming a perpetual victim of state terrorism.

by striking at its core by diluting it and making another guru.

1699 = Mere use of the honorary Sanskrit word for a teacher (by others) will not destroy Sikhi. The historical fact of GurGaddi having been passed from one divine light to another (as a continuation of the same jyot) ten times is undeniable and will not change by virtue of the Sikh Panth becoming bigger in population.

Don't be surprised that when we have two symbols, two jaikaras, two granths (three actually), two traditions.

1699 = Sikhi has various samparda's and obviously certain alcohol and bhang-using Nihangs and Taksali's already bow before three granths. There can be Unity in Diversity. Hinduism has multiple schools of thought. Has it been destroyed as a consequence; no - as Hinduism is only too ready to welcome the millions of Sikhs that you and others like you were and are happy to expel from the Sikh Panth. So Tari do you even advocate kicking out Taksali's, Nirmale, Udasi's and Nihangs out of the Sikh Panth for bowing to three granths and for them doing Havans etc?

This is called Hindutva agenda.

1699 = That's exactly what I'm saying Tari. Everything that you Tari have said on this thread is exactly what the Hindutva agenda wants. They want a smaller and smaller Sikh population. They want for Sikhs to become a demographic irrelavance (exactly as you do). They want for 5 to 6 million current Punjabi-speaking Sikhs to leave Sikhi so that by the time of the 2021 Punjab census we Sikhs are a minority. It beggars belief as to why you support them in this agenda (unless you were a closet Hindu yourself).

I know you may feel bad in what I am saying. But please tell me how else what you are saying can be interpreted?

1699 = If I thought there was a chance you were actually a Sikh then I would certainly feel disappointed as to how the Hindutva agenda has naive Sikhs doing its dirty work for them.

What surprises me is that you support those who want to go out of the bounds of Sikh Mariada

1699 = Yes because even though Damdami Taksal and Nihangs have Sanatan and Vedic leaning ideologies and do not accept mainstream Sikh Maryada, I recognise them as integral members of the Sikh Panth even though I do not subscribe to their schools of thought.

and when I say that "let's not dilute Sikhi", you complain that we are falling into hands of RSS or Hindutva agenda. How could it be so?

1699 = Absolutely. Because via your failed method (as employed by the SGPC in the last 70 years and particularly so in the last 35years) the Sikh population and Panth has come under unprecedented attack and can visibly be seen as unable to defend itself or assist others on a global scale. The final Hindutva push (that you wholeheartedly support Tari) is to exclude 5 to 6 million current Punjabi-speaking Sikhs of leatherworking and Mazhabi ancestries out of Sikhi (and into Hinduism) so that by the 2021 Punjab census we Sikhs are in a minority. You support the Hindutva agenda 100% in this respect as evidenced by your words in this thread. I oppose Hindutva vehemently and strongly advocate that we the Sikh Panth can successfully roll back the Hindutva agenda against our Panth by suddenly including anybody and everybody with any degree of Satkaar for Gurbani within the ranks of the Sikh Panth so that the Sikh Panth becomes an unstoppable force for global good and Sarbat da Bhala.

Do we need Ravidassias, Radhasoamis, Kabirpantias, Noormehlias now?

1699 = No in fact if we had them on board since the 1940's no such tragic events like June 1984 would have happened. If the Sikh Panth had a population of 100 million back in 1984 (bearing in mind that Ravidassia, Kabirpanthi's, Sanatani's, Rangrete comprise around 60 to 70 million just in Uttar Pradesh) then Indira wouldn't have dared fire a single bullet in our direction let alone the Nehru-Gandhi empire daring to orchestrate the Genocide they did against us. With a 100million strong population in 1984 it wouldn't have taken our soorme like Bhai Beant Singh, Bhai Satwant Singh and Bhai Kehar Singh to dispense justice as even a single bullet fired at our Panth would have consequently led to Indira being hunted down like the rat she was and shot dead immediately in the streets in response long before June 1984 in the way dictators like Gaddafi met their fate (at the hands of exactly the historic Sikh population ancestries we have stupidly and unwittingly estranged on behalf of Hindutva forces).

How come you want to assimilate all these people when they don't even care about Sikh Mariada and Sikh Gurus?

1699 = Because if the Sikh Panth doesn't make them feel welcome then our Hindutva opponents will obviously manipulate and abuse them thereby strengthening Hindutva's stranglehold upon India.

I have merely said that Ravidass followers are not Sikhs. When did Ravidassia become Sikhs?

1699 = All those of a leatherworking ancestry in India (numbering 50 million) are natural born Sikhs. When Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj has expressed the truth of Sikhi in Gurbani, how can they logically be anything but?

When did people who are bent of making another Guru become Sikhs?

1699 = Sikh means learner in its simplest sense. Guru simply means teacher (outside the frame of GurGaddi and excluding reference to Akaal Purakh). Dera Ballan leaders are not Sikhs but Hindu Chamar apartheid-activist slaves on behalf of their Hindutva masters.

Why is your focus on Ravidass followers only?

1699 = Not at all (though I understand that you wish to defend Dera Ballan as you have ably and repeatedly done on this thread). I am saying we should strive to welcome and include all the hundreds of millions of so-called lower caste non-Punjabi's in India as natural born members of the Sikh Panth. Only by interaction and exposure to Gurmat will they experience equality and justice and subsequently expand the ranks of the Khalsa Panth in order to serve others less fortunate for the purposes of Sarbat Da Bhala.

Are you a chamar or a SIkh?

1699 = I am a Sikh and only a Sikh. You are the pro-biraderi Jatt who advocates marrying only a Jatt spouse and advocates the pro-Hindutva pro-apartheid pro-Ballan agenda along with allied concepts such as "pollution".

when you are Sikh, Khalsa, you are not some Ravidassia or Noormahlia, aur Saudha Saadh chela.

1699 = Who has ever said anything about the Khalsa Panth being anything other than niyara? Not me. I am merely saying bir'ay that we should engage with innocent shardaloo's of the Dera's at Ballan, Sirsa and Noormehal to re-admit these erstwhile Sikhs back into the Panth. You on the other hand want to see bigger Dera populations and a smaller Sikh population (so that a decreasing number of Khalsa arise year on year from a declining population pool).

What Dera Ballan does is their business.

1699 = No. It's my business. And every Sikh who cares about the future of the Panth considers it their business. Only Hindu's would say that what Dera Ballan they do is their business and good luck to them (as you have said on this thread). When a false Hindutva apartheid ideology removes my (Jagat) Guru Sahib from Gurdwara's (turning Gurdwara's into apartheid-mandirs) and seeks to tear away Sikhs of a certain ancestry away from the Sikh Panth and convert them into Hindu apartheid-activist slaves and a pliant vote bank for the Hindutva agenda then you bet my blood is boiling as I'm a Sikh!

Why do we Sikhs want to snatch any title forcibly from someone when we already have a tile of "Sikh" or "Khalsa"?

1699 = We are Sikh and that will never change. The Khalsa Panth will remain niyara. But integral demographic components of the Sikh Panth will not be torn away from us by appropriation of our terms. For example, if tomorrow Badal is espoused as the role model for Akali Lehar Sikhs we cannot allow our historic terms of respect be hijacked by those who wish the Sikh Panth harm. Thus terms stolen from the collective pride of the whole Panth in recent years like Ravidassia and Ramgarhia should indeed be reclaimed back from Hindutva apartheid activists. When terrorist incidents are falsely blamed on the Khalsa Panth will you idly sit back and let others define such a niyara Panth so wrongly?

Tomorrow you would say Radhasoami title can't be used by Gurinder Singh Dhillon's chela? Or something more in future.

1699 = Exactly the way to eradicate parasites like Dhillon is to re-assimilate his followers back into the Sikh Panth - doing whatever it takes to succeed in that objective including not worrying about semantics when the greater long term good and strength of the Panth is at stake.

Following your line of thought, we should go ahead and assimilate all Deras where chamars, mazhabis go and have their own gurus or go to all deras and make everybody a Sikh

1699 = That's exactly what I'm saying. We should strive to re-admit lost Sikhs back into the Panth and away from the evil arms of Hinduism in which Hindutva forces and those like yourself have helped pushed these innocent followers. That's common sense. How else will Khalsa Raj ever be global for Sarbat da Bhala?

And once they get in, they turn Sikhi upside down because they are in majority and we sit on sidelines watching everything destroyed from inside out.

1699 = Your words echo those who in the 1940's and via 1950 Maryada succeeded at excluding possibly close to a hundred million non-Punjabi sehajdhari Sikhs from the Panth. Instead of visualising a way for the Khalsa Panth to grow for the collective good of humanity you're too worried about being a minority. Funnily enough the Arabs from Saudi Arabia and so-called upper caste minority that controls Hindutva have done just fine as the type of minorities people like you are so scared of contemplating.

Ravidassia people will NEVER be SIkh

1699 = To the contrary I strongly believe that all those of a leatherworking ancestry in India (50 million) are Sikhs and we should accelerate building bridges with our brethren as such.

and SIKHS will never be Ravidassia people.

1699 = To the contrary, ONLY Sikhs believe in the teachings of Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj whereas Hindutva-paid apartheid-activists like Dera Ballan do not.

Sikh can only be Sikh (Sehajdhari or Amritdhari).

1699 = Sikhs are only Sikhs. It is only those like yourself who have a caste affiliation such as Jatt or Chamar who wish the Sikh population to become smaller whilst applauding those apartheid activists that wish to reduce the Sikh population so as to leave it as a minority of the Punjab population by 2021 census. Thus leaving our Sikh Panth in a precarious position given the ongoing dangers of female infanticide, illiteracy, poverty, biraderi, drugs, cancer and alcohol (which many do not seem to appreciate the power of numbers in tackling). True Sikhs and Das want to see a bigger Khalsa Panth for global seva and Sarbat da Bhala. But you Tari Ji want to see a weaker and smaller Khalsa Panth so that we Sikhs cannot serve the poor and needy on a global scale as we should be doing (but have not been able to due to our lack of numbers).

[Guest Believer in 1]

Bhagat Ravidas ji was around before Satguru Nanak Maharaj. soor ma... It seems you have a personal vendetta against Ravidasis and many others . But we all know u would never be vocal like this in which ever gully you came out from. Look you are in no position picking and choosing who should belong in Sikhi. WHO ARE YOU? im not disagreeing with u ON some points like Ravidasis should hold amrit sanchaars but hey many do come from this background and take Amrit. Why deny millions upon millions of low castes into Sikhi? When they were willing whole heartedly, 1984 wouldn't of happened if we had numbers instead we had people like u blowing your own trumpet about who is Sikh, tell me who is a Sikh? Cause you sound like a sunni. Mona or Khalsa if you bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj then at least we are all on the same page Sikh rights, Sikh freedom, Long live Sikhi. Many people run into Sikhi for the love the bani the anand and when they hear this kind of hate they run even faster out. is that the Gurus way? The bhagats inspire many Gursikhs such as bibi pritam kaur just cause you have strong faith in a Bhagat who contributed to Gurbani it's better then some pakhandi SANT. Bhagat Ravidas is a proven saint/mystic. If you are a Khalsa to which I'm ASSUMING... then you should be bringing people into Sikhi show them the true pathway. Not this hate because Sikhi is growing now due to certain organisations building awareness but still were I'm from many dont care about Sikhi many convert many do follow different sects and religions but if we all had unity Sikhi would flourish and us as Sikhs need to address this. Numbers do count how else will their be Raj Karega Khalsa. We can't just have u their you are a delinquent disrespecting a Bhagat. Just because certain people don't fit the bill??(in your eyes). Ravidas bhawan has Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji present and do its upmost to keep the respect of "our" eternal Guru. How can they not be Sikhs then. Your a delusional delinquent and your love for Sikhi shows when your slandering others. Just because their slow adopters due to things that happened in the past and many still exist even today. You mentioned Sikhs being on par with Bhagats LOL a Sikh can only aspire not just taking amrit takes you out of this life cycle if your a delinquent which your are and You mentioned bastardize and pollute?? And then u realise why they call themselves ravidassia Sikh or we also have tharkhan Sikh jatt Sikh you really are a peice of SHYTE. Encouraging divisions

Dhan Sikhi long may it grow.