Nirgun-Sargun And The Classical Logic

[Malkeetv]

sri Waheguru ji ka Khalsa

sri Waheguru ji ki fateh

I recently came upon a da'wah-to-sikhs website which i found to be quit anti-gurmat (obviously). The nirgun-sargun concept of God has been tremendously attacked by them stating that it is contradictory, paradoxical and irrational. There main point of argument is that God can't be nirgun and sargun simulteneously as it is a contradiction to a basic law of classical logic i.e. law of non-contradiction.

I too am confused over it. Can you please tell me how can we explain the concept of nirgun-sargun to them (that they don't want to understand is a different thing) but for my personel spiritual growth can you please explain it to me how the nirgun-sargun concept works

[BarinderSingh]

I have continue to struggle with this question every time I try to come up with an answer. It's a hard topic to discuss as our current minds do not have the ability to grasp it. The english translations don't make things easier because they mix up words and try to sell them off as the same.

Looking at the word nirankar we might come closer to an answer. The current english translate it as formless. If the word is broken down a different picture is painted. Nir - means without and kar - means action. Simply translated as without action. Search deeper and this word translate in my opinion the most accurate as, not bound to rules and actions. Painting the picture of Mool Mantar when it says Onkaar. He is not bound or tied down by rules. He does as is and what will be without any rules issued to him.

Sargun:

Sar- everything

gun - 3 qualities

He has the 3 qualites of Sattva (Goodness), Rajas (Passion), and Tamas (Darkness). All three guna make up the worldly actions since the beginning of time. Some make it confusing by saying he takes up all qualities. It's better to separate them in the above three. In these three qualities the 5 elements are also present

Nirgun

Nir - without

gun - 3 qualities

He is without the 3 qualities. This is where it becomes tricky because many translate gun as form, saying it means without form, but an accurate translation is quality and maybe attribute. I think this is a huge leap to take all the way to say form. I have never come across a shabad that says he is without pooran jot. All I have come across is, he is pooran jot.

Also Gurbani says his form cannot be described. Gurbani says he cannot be described like an object because he has no mark. I think Gurbani is saying this pooran jot cannot be described and this is his ultimate form.

[luckysingh99]

Ask them if their body is nirgun, sargun or both ?

ask if they have a mind and where is it located ?

Better still, ask how can the uttering of nirgun bismallah whilst cutting a chicken's head, make it halal and purified.

Is their purification action completely sirgun, nirgun or Both ?

Most muslims refuse to listen, so you are better off questioning their actions.

[N30S1NGH]

Below info is just for understanding purposes, meant to be experienced spontaneously in meditation while contemplating mool mantar, japji, jaap, Asa di //, sukhmani sahib along with 21st astphadi, especially sri akaal ustat not meant to be turned into another conceptual description, biggest problem is we try to see or understand things conceptually or its abstract separate form -separate from us-creation hence why we cannot relate to it in expereince . If this muslim veer sat for meditation for just couple of minutes without any pre-conditioning, pre-conceived notions or without all his conceptual knowledge just sitting in pure humble, innocent form as a new born would meditate on name of allah, he wouldn't have required to be convinced, this would have automatically reveal itself unfold itself to him eventually to the point its self-authentic, self convincing within meditation.

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One (ik) Vahiguroo is infinitely expressing itself/experiencing itself sponteounsly effortlessly in (ie immanent, pervading) via creation sargun/universe. It expressing expereincing itself in sargun actively (creating, preserving, destructing) very much infused in sargun (ie as back drop pure witnesss awareness of all), its fully engaged in everything and awake yet its pure thoughtless (afor-sun smadhi) awareness and de-attached (nirlaip-free cannot be confined to) from sargun.

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[N30S1NGH]

Very profound thought provoking message by sant mani singh ji uk

http://www.akalbungasahib.com/babaji.html

When asked about God at Orange County, California, sympathetically he replied, “You can’t say its reality. You certainly can’t say it’s a fiction because something exists. That something needs to be experimented. Nothing can be said about God. You can study about God but nothing has been known because all you know is from the outside, what we would call external. Until you enter from within, the internal can’t be known. By studying about God, you will miss the whole concept and the consequence to that is that you are left with knowledge only. To know is to enter the kingdom, to become one with eternity. Knowledge is from the outside and has nothing what so ever to do with God. Because God is happening.”

“Nothing is hidden from God because God is the inside of everything. The inside knows all. You can hide something from others, but you can’t hide it from yourself. And it is there that God is hidden.”

He went on to say “Why have we invented so many names for God? There must be a certain reason, because God cannot be named, a name can easily be changed, but God remains the same. So why has God been addressed? Because there are moments when you would like to scream out your inner feelings to God in sheer joy. Some name is needed. Muslim Sufis invented ninety-nine names of God that are so beautiful, but why not a hundred? Ninety-nine looks a bit incomplete. There is a certain reason the hundredth name is kept silent and that is the true name of God, which of course can’t be uttered. That is why Guru Nanak said ‘Satnam’. Your name is thee truth. But in reality you can’t utter it because it will lose its’ beauty. It remains un-uttered at the deepest core of the heart. What is God’s true name? Nobody knows that all the names are man’s creation. The true name of God is the existence that surrounds you.”

How can one call Him by all His names? The wise give him names according to His manifestations – Jap Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh Ji He goes on saying. “those kind (the irreligious) of people haven’t known anything of spiritual experience. They’ve never felt any presence of God. The only way to receive God is to drop all your searching and seeking. The real question is recognition, not search, and the only way to know God is to live God.”

[Malkeetv]

I think barindersingh is right.

God is not bounded by any law so he should not be gauged in a classical logic frame of reference

God can't be described by our senses and is beyond our imagination.

Also, the law of non-contradiction may be true in this plane of existence but it might not be applicable in some other plane of existence.

One could say the law of non- contradiction is only valid in

the world of observables ( the world in which we interact ) .

[harsharan000]

Though all the posts above are very inspirational, and all carry logic in them and at the same time beauty in them, as, it is regarding the Supreme Being, Akal Purukh.

If allowed to put humbly my 2 cents in this thread, I would say that the Nirgun Swaroop, is something like the all permeating, or call it omnipresent, like the radio waves which are present for example in our house, but we do not perceive them, but if we switch on a radio and tune it, we can listen the news and music of our favourite radio stations, in a similar way, that Supreme Power, is all pervading, and when we tune our minds with Nam Simran, we can hear those Celestial Melodies, Anhad Shabad, Amrit Bani.

This is what is reffered to in Anand Sahib: Nam jiske man vaseeya, vajeh Shabad ganere.

Then the Sargun Swaroop of our Akal Purukh, is like our first Guru, Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj and the Bhagats or the rest of our Guru Sahibans.

In them, Nam was active, or manifested in its full measure, that is also, when the Bani says: Har Jee baseh Sadh ke hirdey.

Waheguru jee ka khalsa, Waheguru jee kee fateh.

[Bijla Singh]

This discussion has taken place many times on this forum. To summarize:

Nirgun has two meanings. One is without attributes and second being completely unaffected. When this word is used for creation or humans it means they are without attributes meaning that they have no attributes of their own. All attributes are given by Vaheguru. When this word is used for Vaheguru, it means He is unaffected and untainted by the creation i.e. Niranjan, Nirlep, Ateet etc. No attribute can affect His existence and therefore He remains unchanged.

Sargun also has two meanings. In one context it is used for creation, maya etc. In second context it is used for God. In latter case (for God) it means He is full of attributes i.e. Guni Nidhan, Gunn-taas etc.

To recap, Nirgun-Sargun for God means God being full of virtues always remains unattached and unbound from creation. His attributes always exist with Him but He does not change with birth and death of creation because He is Niranjan, Nirlep or Nirgun.

In Vedanta and other Hindu philosophies, Sargun refers to creation and Nirgun to being attributeless. Hence, they define God as being one and same as creation (pantheism) while creation exists and becomes devoid of attributes when creation ends. So some of our Sikh scholars have taken the same meanings to define God in Gurmat without properly understanding the context and correct usage of the terms. This leads to confusion and attack by Muslims. But Gurmat's viewpoint is that Vaheguru is Sada-Sada, forever, unchanging (ik-rass) and absolute Truth so He is always Sargun (full of attributes) and Nirgun (remaining unaffected). Hence, regardless of creation's existence, Vaheguru remains unchanging reality and same. Let me know if you need Gurbani quotes. Daas is planning to write a detailed analysis of this with comparison to other Hindu and Islamic philosophies in future. Guru Rakha

[Malkeetv]

thank you bijla singh ji quotes from gurbani would be awesome and please let me know once you finish your article.

can someone explain the meaning of the below mentioned quote

"The Creator is beyond colour

and form, yet He is an elephant with eight arms" (SGGS,

74),

[Malkeetv]

"The Creator is beyond colour

and form, yet He is an elephant with eight arms" (SGGS,

74),

Is the quote referring to Ganpati?