Tunisia Beach Attack

[Xerxes]

Ok Sangha let me take u up on your offer:

1. Do u believe pedophilia is wrong and bad (even if the pedophile in question is a Prophet of Allah)?

2. Do u think it is immoral for a 51 year old Arab slaveowner to marry a 6 year old girl?

3. Do u think it is immoral + evil for a 54 year old Arab slavetrader to sexually deflower a 9 year old girl called Aisha?

4. Do u believe slavery is morally acceptable just because the Quran condones slavery?

5. Because the Quran says men are free to have sex with their female slaves without consent do u think that is ok?

6. Because the Quran says women and slaves are inferior to male slavemasters do u think that is above criticism?

7. Because the Quran says women can be beaten if their husbands want to do u think that is above criticism?

8. Do u think terrorism supported by the Holy Quran is justifiable?

9. Do u think the Genocides carried out by Prophet Muhammad against non-Muslims should not be condemned?

10. Do u think it is fair that the Quran allows Prophet Muhammad unlimited wives and sexual slavegirls whilst restricting ordinary terrorists to just 4 wives (though normal Muslims are permitted unlimited numbers of sex slaves).

1. Muhammad definitely wasn't a pedophile by the standards of the time, all his other marriages were with grown women and he had no special interest in young girls. Of course what he did would certainly be considered an evil and reprehensible crime today.

2. Immoral according to our standards? Sure. Immoral according to the standards of 7th century Arabia? Not really. Aisha's marriage to Muhammad wasn't received with scandal at the time at all.

3. Same thing.

4. The whole ancient world condoned slavery, Islam improved the lot of slaves by encouraging their manumission and setting standards for their proper treatment. Muhammad would probably be pleased (if rather surprised) to see that slavery is now forbidden.

5. The Qur'an doesn't say anything about consent, only that having intercourse with a female slave is not a breach of chastity.

6. No, it's definitely not above criticism and anyone in this day and age (of any religion) who insists on demeaning women or justifying slavery is a cowardly pig in my opinion. However when assessing historical figures we should look at what they did in the context of their time rather than judging them by 21st century standards. And the context is that Muhammad improved the status of both women and slaves in Arabia, what we modern people see as degradation the ancients would have seen as social progress. The idea of women having inheritance and property rights for instance was something quite rare before Muhammad codified it.

7. Same thing.

8. Terrorism is a modern political tactic and is not described in the Qur'an. Every form of violence that is described in the Qur'an was perfectly normal and familiar in the ancient world, and where Islam does innovate it tends to be in ways that we would regard as 'progressive'. For example the killing of non-combatants (or at least non-fighting age males) and the destruction of agricultural lands are proscribed in Islamic law. Not really a massive step forward, the Byzantine Romans for instance developed a much more all-encompassing revulsion towards violence, but it's hardly a step backwards either. I suspect that Muhammad would be pleased to find out about the Geneva Convention as well, although he would probably be shocked and slightly aghast that taking booty in war is now considered abhorrent.

9. Muhammad did not carry out any genocides. He may have killed a portion of the Jewish population of Medina as punishment for them helping the enemy, but clearly this did not have any wider effect on Muslim relations with the Jews as when the Arab armies stormed into Palestine a few decades later they came alongside Jewish allies. Muhammad's supposed expulsion of non-Muslims from Arabia is suspect, there would have been no practical way for such an order to have been carried out. And again, why would the Jews have allied with the Muslims if Muhammad had forcibly expelled their brethren from Arabia?

10. No, that's not really fair even by the standards of the time and it's quite clearly hypocritical.

In summary, Muhammad was a historical figure like any other and a man of his time. He was far from a villain, comparatively-speaking. Rather, the real problems come from religious literalists who accept that everything in the Qur'an is the absolute final Word of God and can never be subject to any interpretation, and who place the letter of Muhammad's teachings above their actual spirit. Islamic civilisation has been infected with an obsessive form of legalism from the very beginning, and whilst this has been a positive thing at times, the idea of an eternal, unchanging and infallible Cosmic Law governing all of society really can't be reconciled with modern western liberal philosophy.

As for whether or not Sikhs should 'take over the world', that idea seems to have emerged with Basics of Sikhi. I haven't really seen the idea that Raj Karega Khalsa implies the formation of some sort of global Sikh theocracy before those talks came out. I personally view it in a similar way to how some Christians see 'Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven' in the Lord's Prayer: an exhortation to try to build a better world for all of us and a promise that Faith will ultimately overcome adversity. I don't think that literally there should be Nishan Sahibs raised over the White House or anything.

[Balkaar]

1. Muhammad definitely wasn't a pedophile by the standards of the time, all his other marriages were with grown women and he had no special interest in young girls. Of course what he did would certainly be considered an evil and reprehensible crime today.

2. Immoral according to our standards? Sure. Immoral according to the standards of 7th century Arabia? Not really. Aisha's marriage to Muhammad wasn't received with scandal at the time at all.

3. Same thing.

4. The whole ancient world condoned slavery, Islam improved the lot of slaves by encouraging their manumission and setting standards for their proper treatment. Muhammad would probably be pleased (if rather surprised) to see that slavery is now forbidden.

What is the point of Islam if you say "Muhammad couldn't have known better, because nobody else did"? Then what was he even for? The purpose of a messenger/prophet is to effect change in the world around them. Our Guru Sahibaan didn't deploy that sort of logic, they didn't excuse the evils of casteism and sexism because they happened to be the prevailing standards of the time. Their knowledge of good and evil was timeless, as it would be if one was truly a man of God, not trammeled by the confines of time and geography, which I consider to be the hallmark of a fraudster and religious racketeer.

Let us assume for a moment that the Islamic representation of Allah is true. When one considers that the God of Islam had something to say about everything, even such menial things as plucking one's eyebrows, it begs the question of why the rape of children is not mentioned or prohibited at all in his Koran (his literal word ad verbatim). I think one can safely assume that he did not object to it, especially since Muhammad, his last prophet, the 'insaan-al-kamil', himself raped a child. If Allah objected to this at all he'd probably have raised the issue during one of their intermittent communications. He didn't because he was ok with it. If child-rape was permitted by Allah then, it would be permissible today as well. God never changes his mind, being omniscient, the resolutions he provides are always the best ones.

[eduardo]

Now why doesn't this hypocrisy surpise me:

"A leader of the terrorist group suspected of being behind the Tunisian beach massacre is living on benefits in Britain.

Hani al-Sibai, an al-Qaeda cleric suspected of radicalising "Jihadi John", lives in a £1 million house leafy street in fashionable west London.

He is said to be one of the "key influencers" of the Islamic fanatics believed to have recruited and trained gunman Seifeddine Rezgui.

Egyptian-born al-Sibai, 54, reportedly lives on £50,000 a year in handouts, disability living allowance, with his wife and five children."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11720000/Cleric-said-to-be-behind-Tunisian-beach-massacre-is-living-in-benefits-in-Britain.html

And people wonder why we get angry about the state of this nation.

[eduardo]

Here's another one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3148070/Hate-preacher-accused-radicalising-Frenchman-beheaded-boss-placing-head-spike-lives-BRITAIN-revealed.html

I remember reading a while back that the secret services encourage a lot of these hate preachers to settle in the UK and use it as a base of operations because they figured that the last place these people would want to attack is their own home turf.

A kind of way of ensuring this country will be safe as long as we let you live here and plan attacks elsewhere but if there is an attack on UK soil you will all be arrested.

I understand the theory and will have to do some digging to see if I can find any proof.

They used to let Abu Qatada conduct his hate sermons at Finsbury park mosque so they could sit back and film the attendees and so monitor them, it would bring all the little Jihadi's to the surface of the pool and be exposed.

As the saying goes keep your friends close but your enemies closer and the other saying is Oh what a web we weave when we try to decieve.

[StarStriker]

The excuses made here regarding muhammeds shennanigans with underage girls, and his general dirty love for all things women, shows u how dumb some ppl well n truely are. The man kept countless women, stolen frm other tribes as his own play thing and took his own neice zainab, as his own partner. Remember WHY muhammed had his muccha/moustache cut off by angel gabriel? For lusting at a women when he was told not to do so!That says it all, the lord themselves punished him, n to this day, muslim men do not keep moustaches, thinkin its to do with how he wanted his followers to do it! Funniest excuse ive heard bowt that, is a dumb p@ki once told me they dont keep moustaches, is for hygiene reasons, so food does not get stuck on it! Lol!

Muslim apologists make me sick, with their rubbish excuses. In the past 100yrs, they have started new propagandas to cover their embarassing historic behaviours and the shockin things written in their quran to ensure they still get converts n no dodgy questions. U got muslim scholars themselves givin permission to muslims to marry underage girls, as their prophet did it, so theres nutin wrong with it. The yemeni, afghan n other arab muslims now have cases in abundance of this, yet hippy flower power non-muslims try makin excuses for this behaviour! The best ppl to listen to regardin islam, is ARAB ex-muslims, as they know the religion properly, and they can actually understand the arabic bein read out, unlike, these pak/bangla/other non-arab muslims. Jus coz u can read arabic, does not mean u know wat is being said.

[SheikhYoBooty]

@ Xerxes bro.

Yes bro u are right that a 54 year old Arab having sex with a 9 year old child was not considered that bad by Arabs.

But i don't get bro how Muslims consider this slave trading rapist to be a Prophet of God + perfect role model for ever?

TheReligionofPeace.com
Guide to Understanding Islam

What does the
Religion of Peace
Teach About...

Slavery and Sex Slavery

Question:

Does Islam condone slavery?

Does Islamic teaching allow Muslim men to keep women as sex slaves?

Summary Answer:

Islam neither ignores nor condemns slavery. Prophet Muhammad owned hundreds of slaves at his death.

In fact, a large part of the Sharia is dedicated to the practice.

Muslims are encouraged to live in the way of Muhammad, who was a slave owner and trader. He captured slaves in battle. He had sex with his slaves. And he instructed his men to do the same. The Qur'an actually devotes more verses to making sure that Muslim men know they can keep women as sex slaves (4) than it does to telling them to pray five times a day (0).

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners. Other Muslims are restrained to four wives, but, following the example of their prophet, may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."

Qur'an (24:32) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.

Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's).

Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored).

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (80:753) - "The Prophet said, 'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'"

Bukhari (52:255) - The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven.

Bukhari (41.598) - Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt.

Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

Bukhari (34:351) - Muhammad sells a slave for money. He was thus a slave trader.

Bukhari (72:734) - Some contemporary Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to believe that Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of many places in the Hadith where a reference is made to a human being owned by Muhammad. In this case, the slave is of African descent.

Muslim 3901 - Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave.

Muslim 4112 - A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free.

Bukhari (47:743) - Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command.

Bukhari (59:637) - "The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, 'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?' When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, 'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'" Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really "wives," since Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living.

Abu Dawud (2150) - "The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Qur'an 4:24) 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.'" This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Qur'an. Not only does Allah grant permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands. (See also Muslim 3432 & Ibn Kathir/Abdul Rahman Part 5 Page 14)

Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?" The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Muhammad looks on in apparent amusement.

Ibn Ishaq (734) - A slave girl is given a "violent beating" by Ali in the presence of Muhammad, who does nothing about it.

Abu Dawud 38:4458 - Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: “A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those whom your right hands possess (i.e. slaves)”. A slave girl is ordered by Muhammad to be beaten until she bleeds, and then beaten again after the bleeding stops. He indicates that this is prescribed treatment for slaves ("those whom your right hand possesses").

Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Muhammad trades away women captured from the Banu Qurayza tribe to non-Muslim slave traders for property. (Their men had been executed after surrendering peacefully without a fight).

Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveller) (o9.13) - According to Sharia, when a child or woman is taken captive by Muslims, they become slaves by the mere fact of their capture. A captured woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.

Additional Notes:

Slavery is deeply embedded in Islamic law and tradition. Although a slave-owner is cautioned against treating slaves harshly, basic human rights are not obliged. The very fact that only non-Muslims may be taken as slaves is evidence of Islam's supremacist doctrine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVWksqo-u-8

Also bro doesn't the beheading of an entire tribe of Jews by Prophet Muhammad count as genocide?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqavWeaMciI

[Xerxes]

What is the point of Islam if you say "Muhammad couldn't have known better, because nobody else did"?

I agree, it seems rather odd to me to proclaim a king who did little better than his contemporaries to be God's ultimate creation and final messenger to humanity. If more Muslims focused on the spirit behind what he did rather trying to turn his specific actions into a dogmatic and legalistic code of conduct the world would be a better place.

I'll be clear here and state that I'm not arguing in favour of the various actions that Muhammad is criticised for doing, I'm arguing that really the demonisation of him as some sort of sex-crazed pedophile warlord is misplaced and the real people who are to blame for today's problems are the religious legalists who have been claiming to follow Muhammad for centuries. Muhammad is dead, he lived and died more than a thousand years ago in a world so different from today as to be almost unrecognisable. It isn't his fault that some of his followers later decided to turn him into a living rulebook for the remainder of eternity.

[KhoonKaBadlaKhoon]

The English authorities sure are bending over to take it from the Islamics, arent they? The politicians letting this occur and the Islamists needs to be thrown on an island full of hungry animals.

[Xerxes]

Remember WHY muhammed had his muccha/moustache cut off by angel gabriel? For lusting at a women when he was told not to do so!

I don't think that this belief is actually a part any of the more popular Muslim sects. I've certainly never heard of it, in fact the idea of Muhammad doing something wrong is utterly intolerable to most Muslims. The Wahhabis believe that Muhammad was fallible in areas outside of religion and made a few mistakes on occasion (the Muslim defeat at Uhud is often given as an example), and even that is violently disputed by non-Wahhabis.

The best ppl to listen to regardin islam, is ARAB ex-muslims, as they know the religion properly, and they can actually understand the arabic bein read out, unlike, these pak/bangla/other non-arab muslims. Jus coz u can read arabic, does not mean u know wat is being said.

I am an ex-Muslim. Not an Arab admittedly and I wasn't Muslim for that long, but I was very into it. I suppose at times I did question quite a few of the things Muhammad supposedly did, but generally I had some reasoning to get around it, and when I didn't I'd try to have faith anyway. I'm also very into history, and really when I look back now at Muhammad I just see someone akin to Charlemagne, Frederick II or Alexander the Great: a fairly decent historical figure and definitely an interesting one, but not one that I could call a prophet. If his religion didn't survive his death (as was nearly the case with the Ridda Wars) I'm sure that Muhammad would be in a lot of historical fiction books and would be the subject of at least one international blockbuster. Both the good and bad sides of him have been grossly exaggerated.

[eduardo]

I am an ex-Muslim.

Are you an atheist now?