Is Gurbani Equal To Other Religious Texts

[Akalifauj]

e

[Kira]

I put this question to you because of your clear writing of saying there is two different Sikhs; one of Vaheguru and one of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. If anything, you have contradict yourself. You want to state your views and yet don't want to take ownership of your views by saying.....

No I said that to us we refer to ourselves as Sikhs of Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Nanak. whether this is right or wrong isn't something I wish to state since I myself am not sure if this is true.

Now let me ask you this, what is the difference between Vaheguru and Guru Sahib? You can keep looking at layman's terms, but looking at Gurbani, we can see Vaheguru and Guru Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) are one and the same. You have bound Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji to his human body form by saying Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji came after Bhagat Kabir ji Bani. Guru Sahib taught Bhagat Kabir ji and saved him from death. Gurbani says in Sri Anand Sahib, only by the Guru can a person be saved.

Guru Gobind Singh ji made it clear that he was a servant of Waheguru. They are the same but at the same time Waheguru is beyond that. If you read History Bhagat Kabir Ji died in 1441, 20 or so years before Guru Nanak came into this world at 1469. Kabir Ji attained his enlightenment through the grace of Waheguru.

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥

जो हम को परमेसर उचरि हैं ॥ ते सभ नरकि कुंड महि परिहैं ॥

Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.

ਮੋ ਕੌ ਦਾਸ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਨੋ ॥ ਯਾ ਮੈ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥੩੨॥

मो कौ दास तवन का जानो ॥ या मै भेद न रंच पछानो ॥३२॥

Consider me as His servant and do not think of any difference between me and the Lord.32.

ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਆਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥

मै हो परम पुरख को दासा ॥ देखनि आयो जगत तमासा ॥

I am the servant of the Supreme Purusha and hath come to see the Sport of the world.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਸੋ ਕਹਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਲੋਕ ਤੇ ਮੋਨਿ ਨ ਰਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੩॥

जो प्रभ जगति कहा सो कहि हों ॥ म्रित लोक ते मोनि न रहिहों ॥३३॥

Whatever the Lord of the world said, I say the same unto you, I cannot remain silent in this abode of death.33.

The saints that spread Dharma are the one and the same with Waheguru, but Guru Sahib made it abundantly clear we're NOT to refer to him as Waheguru.

Are not Sikhs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji followers of Vaheguru? Bhagat Kabir ji was a Sikh of Gurbani. he didn't make his own path up, but came humbly to the path of Gurbani. Gurbani is given to a Sikh by the Guru. Read Gurbani and understand the fact of how a person finds liberation. Sri Anand Sahib has said it very clearly. I have presented those lines of Gurbani here as well.

Again I was speaking about how we as Sikhs address ourselves.

Sorry to say, but you live in deep duality, if you really believe Guru Sahib is any different or lower than Vaheguru and there are two different Sikhs.

refer again to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's words.

Also to restrict the True Guru (Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji) to time is a huge mistake. Again, I refer to Gurbani, which clearly says Guru Sahib is beyond time and space.

The true Guru mentioned in Gurbani is Waheguru. Not Satguru Nanak. And before you start a crusade against me about how I'm belittling Guru Nanak Dev Ji, no I am not. He was a True Guru, but the True Guru that is mentioned in Gurbani is Waheguru as Waheguru is described as being their teacher as well. The same way Guru Gobind Singh Ji referred to him as the protector. And so on. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the true Guru. But the Eternal Guru has always been Waheguru. That's why in the first few lines of the Mool Mantr we describe God as being Eternal.

think you have spent too much time holding on to your beliefs and less time searching Gurbani and having the willingness to accept the teaching of the Guru.

If I didn't accept Guru Sahib's teaching why on earth would I be here?

Only if, Bhagat Kabir ji was sitting on this forum watching his Bani be held in a higher regard because "he got it directly from Vaheguru" and the Guru's Sikh came second because they came later on. I honestly, believe he would be full of bir raas because his Guru, Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is being lowered.

I wonder if you actually read what I wrote. I find it highly amusing how you're pulling statements out of thin air. Let me re-iterate what I said with quotes so this time you won't take it the wrong way.

I said.

Bhagat Kabir wrote his bani and our Guru Sahib deemed it on the same status as theirs,

and from that you pulled.

watching his Bani be held in a higher regard

Bhagat Kabir Ji's bani did come from Waheguru. As did All the Bani our Guru Sahib's wrote. That does not make any of it higher than or lower than one another. The Gurbani which literally refers to the bani of the Guru i.e the Bani of Waheguru (which also means glorious teacher so is synonymous with True Guru) was later collected and that became the form of the Guru Granth Sahib we recite.

our own rehet Maryada deems that to be a Sikh we have to.

"Any human being who faithfully believes in: (i) One Immortal Being, (ii) Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh, (iii) The Guru Granth Sahib, (iv) The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and, (v) the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion is a Sikh." (Rehat Maryada, Sikh Code of Conduct)

That is why I referred to it as .

Was he a Sikh in the sense we are? followers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's path and followers of Guru Granth sahib ji.

Our Supreme teacher is Waheguru, our master is Waheguru. But the one who's given us the key to become closer to Waheguru is our Gurbani, i.e the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Then I went on to say is he a Sikh in the sense a learner from waheguru. WHICH is also a definition of Sikh but in a slightly different sense than the one we are more prone to use. No I am not saying there are 2 different types of sikhs. Please don't add words to what I write and then try to push them off as me trying to say that.

I honestly, believe he would be full of bir raas because his Guru, Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is being lowered.

Quite frankly the fact that you refuse to believe that Bhagat Kabir Ji was one with Waheguru through only Waheguru is a bit worrying. He even clears that misconception in his own bani.

guir dInI bsqu kbIr kau lyvhu bsqu sm@wir ]4] (970-3)

gur deenee basat kabeer ka-o layvhu basat sam^Haar. ||4||

The Guru has blessed Kabeer with the commodity, saying, "Take this commodity; cherish it and keep it secure."||4||

kbIir dIeI sMswr kau lInI ijsu msqik Bwgu ] (970-4)

kabeer dee-ee sansaar ka-o leenee jis mastak bhaag.

Kabeer gives it to the world, but he alone receives it, upon whose forehead such destiny is recorded.

Bhai Gurdas Ji who is easily the most contemporary source of History for us fails to mention Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj in his vaar about Kabir Ji. That would easily be a massive monumental event in anyone's life and this exact vaar is referring to kabir Ji's enlightenment.

http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/10/pauri/15

Gurbani is an ocean of knowledge. One could sit here and spend thousands of years trying to find different meanings from a single line of Gurbani. And even then we would have barely scratched the surface.

I'd like to add here the reason I try to be cautious about my views is I don't want to lead anyone on. I'm hardly a scholar, nor am I a brahmagyani, I've been wrong before. That's why I try to present my view but at the same time advice people to research it further, incase I missed something and I am 100% wrong.

[simran345]

What a brilliant explanation Kira Ji.

Just simple and few words, and you have beautifully said it. I have had the chance to listen the kathas of quite a few gyanis, and read religious scriptures as well, and I think none had said something so logical, so truthful, and in such a very nice way.

But I must say, you are a noble soul, your thoughts, your posts, are the best expressions of what I am saying.

Keep being like that in life, with your positive attitude, and your kindness, and you will acheive a lot with His blessings, means, you will be receptive to His grace.

I also take the opportuniy here, to congratulate all the Sangat in general, as almost all are very good and helpful persons.

Not to name any, but special mention to Simran345 also, who for me is a fantastic and a very good hearted person, and as always, this attitude is what counts in one´s favour.

May Wahiguru bless all.

Sat Sree Akal

Aww thank you ji harsharan000 ji for your blessing. I don't deserve the compliment, if u allow me to share ur kind words with others that write wonderful posts on here.

Mere Daata ji di mehar a, Jo twade jaise nimrata wale rooha de sangat hundi. All compliments for Waheguru Ji.

ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ ਅਸਟਪਦੀਆ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੧

Raag Soohee Asattapadheeaa Mehalaa 1 Ghar 1

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਸਭਿ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੈ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥

I am totally without virtue; I have no virtue at all.

ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਕੰਤ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥

How can I meet my Husband Lord? ||1||

ਨਾ ਮੈ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਬੰਕੇ ਨੈਣਾ ॥

I have no beauty, no enticing eyes.

ਨਾ ਕੁਲ ਢੰਗੁ ਨ ਮੀਠੇ ਬੈਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

I do not have a noble family, good manners or a sweet voice. ||1||Pause||

ਸਹਜਿ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਕਰਿ ਆਵੈ ॥

The soul-bride adorns herself with peace and poise.

ਤਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਜਾ ਕੰਤੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

But she is a happy soul-bride, only if her Husband Lord is pleased with her. ||2||

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ਕਾਈ ॥

He has no form or feature;

ਅੰਤਿ ਨ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਜਾਈ ॥੩॥

At the very last instant, he cannot suddenly be contemplated. ||3||

ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ॥

I have no understanding, intellect or cleverness.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੪॥

Have Mercy upon me, God, and attach me to Your Feet. ||4||

ਖਰੀ ਸਿਆਣੀ ਕੰਤ ਨ ਭਾਣੀ ॥

She may be very clever, but this does not please her Husband Lord.

ਮਾਇਆ ਲਾਗੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਣੀ ॥੫॥

Attached to Maya, she is deluded by doubt. ||5||

ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਈ ਤਾ ਕੰਤ ਸਮਾਈ ॥

But if she gets rid of her ego, then she merges in her Husband Lord.

ਤਉ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੬॥

Only then can the soul-bride obtain the nine treasures of her Beloved. ||6||

ਅਨਿਕ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰਤ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Separated from You for countless incarnations, I have suffered in pain.

ਕਰੁ ਗਹਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਰਾਇਆ ॥੭॥

Please take my hand, O my Beloved Sovereign Lord God. ||7||

ਭਣਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਹੁ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ॥

Prays Nanak, the Lord is, and shall always be.

ਜੈ ਭਾਵੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਤੈ ਰਾਵੇਸੀ ॥੮॥੧॥

She alone is ravished and enjoyed, with whom the Beloved Lord is pleased. ||8||1||

[harsharan000]

Dear posters Kira Jee; simran345, and all,

nobody is perfect here, starting with this das itself. We are all struggling souls here, if we were perfect, we would have been with Him already, with all that, that divine status implies.

But that does not mean ,if we see something good in others, we should not congratulate them.

Just as seen here, if someone sees according to his/her distorted understanding, that something is not correct, they start firing abuses without giving a second thought, or being aware and respectful to the sangat. That too, when anything here can be dealt with politeness, it costs nothing guys.

If anyone has love and faith in Wahiguru, that is very good, why should we feel insecure or jealous?

Or feel, that only we know ... so we start debating, that also just for our haume ...

why is it we are so complicated?

where is our sense of nobility and humility?

Haume blinds our budhee, our sense of discrimination and thus we become shameless moorakhs ...

Once again, Kira Ji has positively surprised me with the latest posts above, which only a spiritual mature person can do. I am amazed.

It seems, that with difficulties thrown on(unreasonable and hard questions), Kira surpasses all of them gracefully, with peace and calmness, without losing the posture of being so human and so humble at the same time.

And this is not because of anything, but because of being truthful to the Bani and having unwavering faith and love for Wahiguru.

So hats off to Kira Jee

And then simran345 jee, I do not compliment anybody just like that.

I just say what I perceive, not that I know anybody here, but I perceive all goodness from you and Kira jee.

And as well in other members/posters, like jonny101, or jsinghz, fancy banana, Jacfsing2,and so many others, whose names do not come in my mind now(excuse me for that), but we know them all ...

Each and everyone here doing the ustatee, singing the wadeeayee of Wahiguru Akal Purukh, it is just delightful.

It is great to be among so many noble people, I see great spiritual potential in all.

And as said before, this is what counts ... Inspite of our imperfections, we are heading towards the Light.

Some prefer to look to the darkness in others, I prefer to look at the Light in everyone.

God bless all.

Sat Sree Akal.

[simran345]

Dear posters Kira Jee; simran345, and all,

nobody is perfect here, starting with this das itself. We are all struggling souls here, if we were perfect, we would have been with Him already, with all that, that divine status implies.

But that does not mean ,if we see something good in others, we should not congratulate them.

Just as seen here, if someone sees according to his/her distorted understanding, that something is not correct, they start firing abuses without giving a second thought, or being aware and respectful to the sangat. That too, when anything here can be dealt with politeness, it costs nothing guys.

If anyone has love and faith in Wahiguru, that is very good, why should we feel insecure or jealous?

Or feel, that only we know ... so we start debating, that also just for our haume ...

why is it we are so complicated?

where is our sense of nobility and humility?

Haume blinds our budhee, our sense of discrimination and thus we become shameless moorakhs ...

Once again, Kira Ji has positively surprised me with the latest posts above, which only a spiritual mature person can do. I am amazed.

It seems, that with difficulties thrown on(unreasonable and hard questions), Kira surpasses all of them gracefully, with peace and calmness, without losing the posture of being so human and so humble at the same time.

And this is not because of anything, but because of being truthful to the Bani and having unwavering faith and love for Wahiguru.

So hats off to Kira Jee

And then simran345 jee, I do not compliment anybody just like that.

I just say what I perceive, not that I know anybody here, but I perceive all goodness from you and Kira jee.

And as well in other members/posters, like jonny101, or jsinghz, fancy banana, Jacfsing2,and so many others, whose names do not come in my mind now(excuse me for that), but we know them all ...

Each and everyone here doing the ustatee, singing the wadeeayee of Wahiguru Akal Purukh, it is just delightful.

It is great to be among so many noble people, I see great spiritual potential in all.

And as said before, this is what counts ... Inspite of our imperfections, we are heading towards the Light.

Some prefer to look to the darkness in others, I prefer to look at the Light in everyone.

God bless all.

Sat Sree Akal.

Hanji You are right Harsharan ji, if we were perfect we would not be in this world and at our destination home.

Thank u ji, I will accept ur compliment, am blessed to hear this, even I do not see it myself

Hanji u are right, so many debates are confusing too, it diverts one from the main topic being discussed, and then goes out of hand. It also damages our own souls, as arguing and judging others will only have a negative effect on ourselves. One must defend themselves against any negativity and oppression, but in such a way that it does not reflect upon one's self in a bad way or that it hurts the other's soul.

"Kise da kuch gwach NI janda je khadar nal kise nal bolo", so true what u said. Hanji all diversities of Wahegurus creation praising them, and helping. Arguments aside, at least all are talking about God, which will count towards ones Karm.

Hanji I noticed the same thing you say about Kira ji, the flow of the praises and explanations does show a pure and nimrata soul. Yup and the way the gristi roop adjusts back again, into whole post - wonderful.

[Kira]

Thank you for the kind words Benji. You show me far too much respect, far more than I feel for myself. My biggest fear has always been straying away from Gurbani and considering what I see as true as being what's in Gurbani. That is why it is nice to see many more knowledgeable Sikhs like Simran Benji and yourself Harsharan Benji seeing the same thigns I am. It's nice to know im not alone and I may be right in my interpretation. We all strive to get and become better sikhs in general.

If Our bodies are a radio then Gurbani is the tuner and Waheguru is the true Frequency. We must use the tuner to get one with the Divine name of the Almighty so our bodies can one day resonate the Celestial hymns of The Supreme one.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

[harsharan000]

LOL Kira Jee,

if you go to my profile you will know about my male gender...lol

I do not know how you thought of me being a benji, because I am a "Paa jee", a brother.

I respect women, but if ever of anything I am proud of, is of my male gender and all that implies, as per how Wahiguru has made me.

I know this may sound egoistic, but well, for good or bad, that is how I am.

Earthwise It is great, to be a man, and to respect and love a woman, have children and love them.

It is a blessing from Wahiguru.

Clear enough Kira jee ?

Sat Sree Akal.

[simran345]

Kira ji this is my original self, respect I learned from elders, but after my health condition I lost my way. I'm confused to as how Harsharan ji paji gave me the same respect as you as I too feel I'm not worthy of it. I am not even worth the dust of knowledge and to be honest I don't have much knowledge of Sikhi, nor do I know how to write in deep engaging topics. But I do understand yours and Harsharan jis posts, aswell as many more on this site. It's refreshing light understanding from the way you both write. Without reading vast amounts and getting confused.

Love the radio and frequency bits, weird that how I think. And the style of writing is very hmm not sure how to describe. delightful to read.

It's good to see truthful and well explained topics that my soul can absorb and learn from.

Thanku ji.

[Kira]

LOL Kira Jee,

if you go to my profile you will know about my male gender...lol

I do not know how you thought of me being a benji, because I am a "Paa jee", a brother.

I respect women, but if ever of anything I am proud of, is of my male gender and all that implies, as per how Wahiguru has made me.

I know this may sound egoistic, but well, for good or bad, that is how I am.

Earthwise It is great, to be a man, and to respect and love a woman, have children and love them.

It is a blessing from Wahiguru.

Clear enough Kira jee ?

Sat Sree Akal.

I'm so sorry Bhaji. My narrow mindedness is showing, I have only ever met females called Harsharan and as a result that clouded me from the fact Waheguru blessed us all with gender neutral names.

[Akalifauj]

e