Is Gurbani Equal To Other Religious Texts

[Kira]

Let's look at Gurbani and see if Satguru Nanak Dev ji is Vaheguru.

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥

No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Guru Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9|| ang 864

You accuse me of nitpicking but didn't bother to read the full Shabad.

goNf mhlw 5 ] (864-14)

gond mehlaa 5.

Gond, Fifth Mehl:

guru myrI pUjw guru goibMdu ] (864-14)

gur mayree poojaa gur gobind.

I worship and adore my Guru; the Guru is the Lord of the Universe.

guru myrw pwrbRhmu guru BgvMqu ] (864-14)

gur mayraa paarbarahm gur bhagvant.

My Guru is the Supreme Lord God; the Guru is the Lord God.

guru myrw dyau AlK AByau ] (864-14)

gur mayraa day-o alakh abhay-o.

My Guru is divine, invisible and mysterious.

srb pUj crn gur syau ]1] (864-15)

sarab pooj charan gur say-o. ||1||

I serve at the Guru's feet, which are worshipped by all. ||1||

gur ibnu Avru nwhI mY Qwau ] (864-15)

gur bin avar naahee mai thaa-o.

Without the Guru, I have no other place at all.

Anidnu jpau gurU gur nwau ]1] rhwau ] (864-15)

an-din japa-o guroo gur naa-o. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Night and day, I chant the Name of Guru, Guru. ||1||Pause||

guru myrw igAwnu guru irdY iDAwnu ] (864-16)

gur mayraa gi-aan gur ridai Dhi-aan.

The Guru is my spiritual wisdom, the Guru is the meditation within my heart.

guru gopwlu purKu Bgvwnu ] (864-16)

gur gopaal purakh bhagvaan.

The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Primal Being, the Lord God.

gur kI srix rhau kr joir ] (864-17)

gur kee saran raha-o kar jor.

With my palms pressed together, I remain in the Guru's Sanctuary.

gurU ibnw mY nwhI horu ]2] (864-17)

guroo binaa mai naahee hor. ||2||

Without the Guru, I have no other at all. ||2||

guru boihQu qwry Bv pwir ] (864-17)

gur bohith taaray bhav paar.

The Guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean.

gur syvw jm qy Cutkwir ] (864-18)

gur sayvaa jam tay chhutkaar.

Serving the Guru, one is released from the Messenger of Death.

AMDkwr mih gur mMqRü aujwrw ] (864-18)

anDhkaar meh gur mantar ujaaraa.

In the darkness, the Guru's Mantra shines forth.

gur kY sMig sgl insqwrw ]3] (864-18)

gur kai sang sagal nistaaraa. ||3||

With the Guru, all are saved. ||3||

guru pUrw pweIAY vfBwgI ] (864-19)

gur pooraa paa-ee-ai vadbhaagee.

The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune.

gur kI syvw dUKu n lwgI ] (864-19)

gur kee sayvaa dookh na laagee.

Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone.

gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19)

gur kaa sabad na maytai ko-ay.

No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

guru nwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19)

gur naanak naanak har so-ay. ||4||7||9||

Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

That Shabad was referring to Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Waheguru's light being the one and the same, as was the other one. That's why they said Light form, Waheguru isn't limited to just a "light form" he is far beyond that as he himself has no form. You're confining Waheguru to a human form, a form that is weak, can get diseases and can even be damaged and torn. Are you saying Waheguru would manifest like that and become that form? Guru Nanak and Waheguru's Jott were the same, but he always stated that God was still more. We have no idea of his limits, yet here you are giving him one in the human form.

You have nitpicked at Gurbani. I can provide you with more shabads if these lines of Gurbani have not satisfied your hunger of who Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is.

When have I ever denied that Guru Nanak wasn't enlightened. Why do you think our Guru Sahib's always spoke about the Supreme one? why do you think Our Guru Sahib's ALWAYS spoke about God in a different context?

ਪਵਨ ਅਰੰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਲਾ ॥ पवन अर्मभु सतिगुर मति वेला ॥ Pavan arambẖ saṯgur maṯ velā. From the air came the beginning. This is the age of the True Guru's Teachings.

ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ सबदु गुरू सुरति धुनि चेला ॥ Sabaḏ gurū suraṯ ḏẖun cẖelā. The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple.

ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਲੇ ਰਹਉ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥ अकथ कथा ले रहउ निराला ॥ Akath kathā le raha▫o nirālā. Speaking the Unspoken Speech, I remain unattached.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥ नानक जुगि जुगि गुर गोपाला ॥ Nānak jug jug gur gopālā. O Nanak, throughout the ages, the Lord of the World is my Guru.

ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਥਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ एकु सबदु जितु कथा वीचारी ॥ Ėk sabaḏ jiṯ kathā vīcẖārī. I contemplate the sermon of the Shabad, the Word of the One God.

It's made abundantly clear that The True Guru referred to in Gurbani is Waheguru. Guru Gobind Singh even further points this out in Chaupai Sahib.

Javan kaal sabh jagat banaio. dev dait jachhan upjaayo. aad ant eikai avtaaraa. soee guru samjhiyaho hamara. (9) Creator of Time made the Universe; the angels, demons and yakshas. Start & End only with Him. He alone is My Guru. (9)

Yet you're the one that insists on Referring to Guru Nanak as Waheguru. He himself never asserted that, he always referred to himself as his messenger, his student. That is why Waheguru spoke to him during his 3 days of disappearance. That is why time and time again our Guru's always spoke about God as being someone more than them. That is why they referred to him as their lord and master.

The Bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, you have provided is being presented in a wrongful manner.

How have I presented it in a wrongful manner lol. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made it clear we're not to refer to him as Waheguru, yet here you are doing that exact same thing for Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He said we should treat them as one but should never address him as God.

You accused me of holding onto my own beliefs but you yourself refuse to let yours go as it conflicts with what Gurbani may offer.

[Akalifauj]

e

[Kira]

cwry jwgy chu jugI pMcwiexu Awpy hoAw ]8]1]

chaarae jaagae chahu jugee pa(n)chaaein aapae hoaa ||8||1||

The four Gurus enlightened the four ages; the Lord Himself assumed the fifth form. ||8||1|| ang 968

and once again you pulled a Tukh out of context.

gur AMgd dI dohI iPrI scu krqY bMiD bhwlI ] (967-7)

gur angad dee dohee firee sach kartai banDh bahaalee.

Guru Angad was proclaimed, and the True Creator confirmed it.

nwnku kwieAw pltu kir mil qKqu bYTw sY fwlI ] (967-7)

naanak kaa-i-aa palat kar mal takhat baithaa sai daalee.

Nanak merely changed his body; He still sits on the throne, with hundreds of branches reaching out.

dru syvy aumiq KVI msklY hoie jMgwlI ] (967-8)

dar sayvay umat kharhee maskalai ho-ay jangaalee.

Standing at His door, His followers serve Him; by this service, their rust is scraped off.

dir drvysu KsMm dY nwie scY bwxI lwlI ] (967-8)

dar darvays khasamm dai naa-ay sachai banee laalee.

He is the Dervish - the Saint, at the door of His Lord and Master; He loves the True Name, and the Bani of the Guru's Word.

Whenever Guru Sahib is mentioned as one and the same as Waheguru, Waheguru is asserted as their teacher, their lord beforehand too. Guru Nanak was the light of the lord, but we DO NOT refer to him as Waheguru. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made it crystal clear we are never to do that, but you're still refusing to take his word for it.

It took me a while to read and re-read the full part of the bani. What you just quote was the Lord himself assumed the fifth form. The lord being referred to here is Satguru Nanak Dev Ji, not Waheguru. As the previous aspects refer to the Creator in this context as being their lord and master. The entire tukh you quoted was about the history of the Guru Sahib and how even though they changed body their light remained the same.

Again let me re-iterate in small words. Guru Nanak never called himself waheguru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji further added to that in his autobiography. Guru Nanak was one with the lord but as said by Guru Gobind Singh Ji we are not to refer to him as the lord, merely the servant of the lord.

The Guru is speaking, its time to listen and attune the mind to the Guru

Alas if you could also follow that advice. The horrific things you said about someone else in another thread is certainly not in-tune with the mind of the Guru.

Bhool Chook Maaf karni Waheguru Ji

[Guest Jacfsing2]

cwry jwgy chu jugI pMcwiexu Awpy hoAw ]8]1]

chaarae jaagae chahu jugee pa(n)chaaein aapae hoaa ||8||1||

The four Gurus enlightened the four ages; the Lord Himself assumed the fifth form. ||8||1|| ang 968

The Guru is speaking, its time to listen and attune the mind to the Guru

Even I believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the very form of Vaheguru, but you really should post the entire shabad instead of single lines. It's much easier that way.

[harsharan000]

In my humble opinion,

we are mistaking the Light with the bulb, in the sense the physical form of Guru, like Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj and Waheguru Akal Purukh.

In the Aartee, we hear and read: Sabh meh Jot, Jot hae soee. The Light is present in all, and that very Light is the ultimate Truth. This makes sense, because only a ray, a soul, from that Light, can merge in that Primal Light.

As we all know, when we die, our perishable bodies are left here to be buried or burnt, in those subtle planes of Spirituality, there is no gross matter at all as seen here.

So it is the light(soul) that merges in that Light(Satnam). And that light, can be of 1 watts, as per ours; or it can be of 1000 watts, as per of a Gurmukh. The difference of the refulgence between the both lights, is that, while our individual soul is covered with the triguna, maya, karamas and mind; the Light of the Gurmukhs or Guru Sahibans, is totally free of any such dust or coverings, that is why they radiate so much love, so much Daya Meher...and it is this Their Pure spiritual Light which attracts us towards them as "moths", and we feel so much prem or love for them, though it maybe even their transient physical swaroop, we get the fragrance of Wahiguru from them.

Waheguru is a level of Highest Consciousness, or call it Energy, which is known also as Naam, Shabad, Sachee Bani or Anhad Bani, which is beyond births, deaths, and so is changeless also.

It is our love for the physical form of Nanak Dev Maharaj, due to our limited or dull spiritual vision, which does not allow us to see that Jot of Wahiguru in Him. So we cling on to that physicall form as sole reality. We do not see His reality, beyond the perception of our senses : karm indriya or gyan indriya.

The physical forms of the Gurumukhs or Guru Sahibans too, are born as babies, then change into adults, even the old age comes at the due time, and finally they also leave their physical body like any of us, and this body is dissolved into the 5 elements, from which all the gross creation is made of.

So if that physical form passes away, it can not be the real form of Wahiguru. Not that Wahiguru is not present fully in that form, but certainly Wahiguru is not limited to that form.

The Bani says : the Lord resides in the tongue of the Sadh Janas ....the Lord resides in the hearts of the Sadh Janas.

So you see, it is that power which takes seat and manifests Itself through the Gurmukhs or Guru Sahibans, for us limited human beings in order to make us understand that Primal Truth, namely Wahiguru Akal Purukh, and also to show us the path of devotion through His Naam Simran and make us leave aside all our rituals, dogmas, or in one word, "manmukhta"

Wahiguru resides in that form, for a particular time , for a particular purpose, then, it passes on as per His will.

If Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj´s physical form was the True form of Wahiguru, it would have descended here as such, but we also know, that it was not like that, it passed away and continued the parmarath with the form of second Patshahee, Guru Angad Dev Maharaj, and it continued so on.

If Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj´s physical form, was the True form of Wahiguru, the Mool Mantar would have said:

Ik Oankar, Satgur Nanak Dev Maharaj and so on....

But we know, it is not like that, rather it says:

Ik Oankar, Satnam, karta Purakh, nirbav, nirvair, akal moorat , ajoonee

So, that True form of Wahiguru which is beyond time, which is ajoonee, which is Saibhang ...

Is none other than Satnam, or call it wahiguru Akal Purukh, and this form of Wahiguru is realized by His Grace or Gurparsad alone.

It is this form of Nam, of Shabad, of Sachee Bani, from where all of us have emerged, and where we have to merge also, in order to be freed from Maya, births and deaths once and forever.

We also are a particle of that Wahiguru as souls, but the difference between us manmukhs and them Gurmukhs or Guru Sahibans, is that, while we are chained with the filth of karmas, mind and vikaars thus bound into the mayavee creation, they, on the other side, Guru Sahibans come under the Hukum of Wahiguru, or we can say, Wahiguru, to make Himself visible to us limited beings, He takes a limited physical form as a Gurmukh, a Sant Jan, a Brahmgyani or call it may Guru Sahiban, and that´s it.

And these Guru Sahibans, have no such karma to bind them here, they are spotless, their mind is crystal clear, they can return into Satnam, back per will, but nevertheless, they say, they do everything and live under His Hukum, such is their humility, their nimrata ...

To the extent, they say, we are His servants, His priceless slaves...when in the reality, their chit is one with Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Sangat Jee, the Bani of our Guru Sahibans is utmost beautiful, utmost sweet, beyond any imagination, with a depth, that to understand it fully in the context our Guru Sahibans want us grasp their message, we need a lot of purity ...vikaars of hatred, anger, avarice, jealousy, malice, ego or haume.... have clouded our chits.

For that, we need a regular daily dose of humility, simplicity, goodness, truthfulness, with the aid of Bhajan Bandagee, and to top it all, His Grace.

Sat Sree Akal.

[simran345]

Wonderful, satbachan ji. Harsharan ji the 5elements, panj tat? Fire, water, air, Earth and space?

[harsharan000]

Wonderful, satbachan ji. Harsharan ji the 5elements, panj tat? Fire, water, air, Earth and space?

Yes.

[Kira]

In my humble opinion,

we are mistaking the Light with the bulb, in the sense the physical form of Guru, like Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj and Waheguru Akal Purukh.

In the Aartee, we hear and read: Sabh meh Jot, Jot hae soee. The Light is present in all, and that very Light is the ultimate Truth. This makes sense, because only a ray, a soul, from that Light, can merge in that Primal Light.

As we all know, when we die, our perishable bodies are left here to be buried or burnt, in those subtle planes of Spirituality, there is no gross matter at all as seen here.

So it is the light(soul) that merges in that Light(Satnam). And that light, can be of 1 watts, as per ours; or it can be of 1000 watts, as per of a Gurmukh. The difference of the refulgence between the both lights, is that, while our individual soul is covered with the triguna, maya, karamas and mind; the Light of the Gurmukhs or Guru Sahibans, is totally free of any such dust or coverings, that is why they radiate so much love, so much Daya Meher...and it is this Their Pure spiritual Light which attracts us towards them as "moths", and we feel so much prem or love for them, though it maybe even their transient physical swaroop, we get the fragrance of Wahiguru from them.

Waheguru is a level of Highest Consciousness, or call it Energy, which is known also as Naam, Shabad, Sachee Bani or Anhad Bani, which is beyond births, deaths, and so is changeless also.

It is our love for the physical form of Nanak Dev Maharaj, due to our limited or dull spiritual vision, which does not allow us to see that Jot of Wahiguru in Him. So we cling on to that physicall form as sole reality. We do not see His reality, beyond the perception of our senses : karm indriya or gyan indriya.

The physical forms of the Gurumukhs or Guru Sahibans too, are born as babies, then change into adults, even the old age comes at the due time, and finally they also leave their physical body like any of us, and this body is dissolved into the 5 elements, from which all the gross creation is made of.

So if that physical form passes away, it can not be the real form of Wahiguru. Not that Wahiguru is not present fully in that form, but certainly Wahiguru is not limited to that form.

The Bani says : the Lord resides in the tongue of the Sadh Janas ....the Lord resides in the hearts of the Sadh Janas.

So you see, it is that power which takes seat and manifests Itself through the Gurmukhs or Guru Sahibans, for us limited human beings in order to make us understand that Primal Truth, namely Wahiguru Akal Purukh, and also to show us the path of devotion through His Naam Simran and make us leave aside all our rituals, dogmas, or in one word, "manmukhta"

Wahiguru resides in that form, for a particular time , for a particular purpose, then, it passes on as per His will.

If Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj´s physical form was the True form of Wahiguru, it would have descended here as such, but we also know, that it was not like that, it passed away and continued the parmarath with the form of second Patshahee, Guru Angad Dev Maharaj, and it continued so on.

If Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj´s physical form, was the True form of Wahiguru, the Mool Mantar would have said:

Ik Oankar, Satgur Nanak Dev Maharaj and so on....

But we know, it is not like that, rather it says:

Ik Oankar, Satnam, karta Purakh, nirbav, nirvair, akal moorat , ajoonee

So, that True form of Wahiguru which is beyond time, which is ajoonee, which is Saibhang ...

Is none other than Satnam, or call it wahiguru Akal Purukh, and this form of Wahiguru is realized by His Grace or Gurparsad alone.

It is this form of Nam, of Shabad, of Sachee Bani, from where all of us have emerged, and where we have to merge also, in order to be freed from Maya, births and deaths once and forever.

We also are a particle of that Wahiguru as souls, but the difference between us manmukhs and them Gurmukhs or Guru Sahibans, is that, while we are chained with the filth of karmas, mind and vikaars thus bound into the mayavee creation, they, on the other side, Guru Sahibans come under the Hukum of Wahiguru, or we can say, Wahiguru, to make Himself visible to us limited beings, He takes a limited physical form as a Gurmukh, a Sant Jan, a Brahmgyani or call it may Guru Sahiban, and that´s it.

And these Guru Sahibans, have no such karma to bind them here, they are spotless, their mind is crystal clear, they can return into Satnam, back per will, but nevertheless, they say, they do everything and live under His Hukum, such is their humility, their nimrata ...

To the extent, they say, we are His servants, His priceless slaves...when in the reality, their chit is one with Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Sangat Jee, the Bani of our Guru Sahibans is utmost beautiful, utmost sweet, beyond any imagination, with a depth, that to understand it fully in the context our Guru Sahibans want us grasp their message, we need a lot of purity ...vikaars of hatred, anger, avarice, jealousy, malice, ego or haume.... have clouded our chits.

For that, we need a regular daily dose of humility, simplicity, goodness, truthfulness, with the aid of Bhajan Bandagee, and to top it all, His Grace.

Sat Sree Akal.

Once again you've explained things in a way I never could. That was a magnificent post BHAJI. See this time I got it right D:

I'd like to add it's alot like that analogy of the river and the ocean. They are connected, they are one, but referring to the river as being the ocean isn't something we would do. The Guru Sahib is that River, we know that river is connected to Ocean but only the river can truly Comprehend it. We can't comprehend it until we too follow the river to the sea.

[Akalifauj]

e

[Akalifauj]

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