Is Gurbani Equal To Other Religious Texts

[simran345]

I don't understand what you are trying to prove Akalifauj ji. Kira jis posts are good and to me it seems you are challenging him. Why? As he style of writing is not what you are used to? I just don't get why you are constantly challenging, apne posts v deklea Karo ji.

Chee chuu chee chuu are u ever satisfied?

[Akalifauj]

e

[simran345]

Okji as u wish Akalifauj ji, but I'm baffled as kirajis posts seem to be the best I seen in a long time. Each to their own opnion.

[Kira]

ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ॥

The Guru is my worship and the Guru is Vaheguru (Gobind was a name used to refer to what the Hindus thought was Vaheguru. Guru Sahib is using the word to say Vaheguru)

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥

The Guru is my Supreme God (Vaheguru), the Guru is the Lord God.

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਦੇਉ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਉ ॥

My Guru is God, invisible, and mysterious.

ਸਰਬ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਨ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਉ ॥੧॥

All worship the feet of the Guru, who I do selfless service for.

And before that Gurbani says this.

ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥ दिनु रैणि नानकु नामु धिआए ॥ Ḏin raiṇ Nānak nām ḏẖi▫ā▫e. Day and night, Nanak meditates on the Naam.

ਸੂਖ ਸਹਜ ਆਨੰਦ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥੬॥ सूख सहज आनंद हरि नाए ॥४॥४॥६॥ Sūkẖ sahj ānanḏ har nā▫e. ||4||4||6|| Through the Lord's Name, he is blessed with peace, poise and bliss. ||4||4||6||

Do you have any idea what you are trying to allude to?

Guru Nanak was born into this world, He was given a name by his Parents, he grew old as well. Are you implying that Waheguru in all his might came to Earth in the form of a human? are you saying that Waheguru, who is the lord of the universe, was confined to the same principles as we are.

Guru Gobind singh Ji made it clear. We're to treat him and the lord AS ONE. But we are not to refer to him as the lord. That is the whole point. They were a part of Waheguru but Waheguru deems them his children, the same way Waheguru is one with them but Waheguru himself is still far far more. They are the river of Waheguru that flows from him and then leads to him. But referring to them as waheguru is prohibited by Guru Gobind singh Ji.

I'd also like to add that taking 1 tukh or even one panna out of context from the Gurbani of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a massive, massive mistake. Look at this tukh.

ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥

Suasath Aathh Baanee Baramaao ||

सुअसति आथि बाणी बरमाउ ॥

I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator.

188 ਜਪੁ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪ ਪੰ. ੧੬

Jap Guru Nanak Dev

From that one tukh some will say Guru Nanak is referring us to bow to Brahma the hindu God. But in actuality Brahma is synonymous with the Creator. The word brahma is used here to represent the creative aspect of Waheguru.

That Tukh you just quoted is totally misrepresented. Let me add one thing. You just said Guru Arjun made it clear who his Guru was. Guru Arjun Dev Ji and Guru Nanak dev Ji are the one Jott, they are the same. Why would he referring to Guru Nanak as a seperate Entity, you're now trying to imply that our Guru Sahib's were all seperate Jotts and not one complete Jott passed down. The Shabad before even mentions this.

ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ जिनि कीआ सो गुर ते जानिआ ॥ Jin kī▫ā so gur ṯe jāni▫ā. Through the Guru, know the One who created you.

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਮੁਗਧ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥ गुर किरपा ते मुगध मनु मानिआ ॥३॥ Gur kirpā ṯe mugaḏẖ man māni▫ā. ||3|| By the Guru's Mercy, the foolish mind comes to believe. ||3||

ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਣੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ गुरु करता गुरु करणै जोगु ॥ Gur karṯā gur karṇai jog. The Guru is the Creator; the Guru has the power to do everything.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਗੁ ॥ गुरु परमेसरु है भी होगु ॥ Gur parmesar hai bẖī hog. The Guru is the Transcendent Lord; He is, and always shall be.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਇਹੈ ਜਨਾਈ ॥ कहु नानक प्रभि इहै जनाई ॥ Kaho Nānak parabẖ ihai janā▫ī. Says Nanak, God has inspired me to know this.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੫॥੭॥ बिनु गुर मुकति न पाईऐ भाई ॥४॥५॥७॥ Bin gur mukaṯ na pā▫ī▫ai bẖā▫ī. ||4||5||7|| Without the Guru, liberation is not obtained, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||5||7

Then the tukh you quoted comes in, that's where the Guru in that context has been Waheguru.

Guru Nanak's light was one with Waheguru, but if we start to refer to him as a full being as being Waheguru, we're implying that waheguru came in a human form, his physical form was also Guru Nanak. Which isn't true.

[harsharan000]

Dhan Dhan Satguru Arjun Dev Maharaj beautifully tells us in Raag Gauri, the signs of the True Guru:

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਰਾ

Guradhaev Sathigur, Paarabreham Paramaesar Guradhaev, Naanak Har Namasakaraa

गुरदेव सतिगुरु पारब्रहमु परमेसरु गुरदेव नानक हरि नमसकरा

The Divine Guru is the True Guru, the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; Nanak bows in humble reverence to the Lord, the Divine Guru.

Moreover, Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj referring to the True Guru, has Himself said in Sidh Ghost: Shabad Guru, Surat Dhun chela.

We all know what Guru means, it means a Teacher, a Master, which we can truly apply to any of our beloved Guru Sahibans, the Gurmukhs or Bhagat Jan.

Why can we do so, without making any possible mistakes?

Because we also know, Guru means, dispeller of darkness, the one who takes us from the realms of darkness to the only realm of Eternal Light and bliss.

And so, when we say takes us, to whom are we referring?

Is it our bodies, which can go to Sach Khand? We may be mentally unbalanced if we think otherwise, because our real identity is, our souls, the jeev atma.

So it is the souls, which the Guru takes to Sach Khand, the bodies are insentient, conciousless, which are left behind, just as the ones of any Guru Sahiban did also.

So if the all powerfull Guru Sahibans left their bodies here, how come can we stupid manmukhs do the contrary to it?

I guess many firmly believe, that if ever they have the chance of going to Sach Khand, they will see, all the Bhagats, the Gurmukhs, the Guru Sahibans sitting all together, as friends would meet here on earth in a party ....

I feel pity, on how we manmukhs can limit the Bani with our poor vision...

The Bani clearly says :

Sach Khand vaseh Nirankar.

Only the formless Lord resides in Sach Khand.

It does not say, all the Guru sahibans and other so elevated souls live together there. Different thing is, that, that Formless Wahiguru assumes the human form for our benefit whenever He wishes to come at our level, but once He finishes His particular task for that time being, He returns back and assumes His natural swaroop as Nirankar(formless), thus as Alakh Purukh, as Agam Purukh, as Anami Purukh, in His True house Sach Khand.

So going back to the point, of who the True Guru is, which guides the disciple back to Sach Khand, the Bani says: Nanak Nam Jahaz Hae, jin chareeya se utareeya paar.

Again, we are directed to look at Naam or Shabad as the True Guru, because, only that wadbhagee soul, which grasps the strong powerful arm of the Shabad Guru, with love and devotion through His Simran, reaches safely back Home.

The purpose of sikee is to make us aware of the only realty which exists, and that is Naam or Shabad alone.

To this Naam or Shabad, Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj in Sukhmani Sahib, refers as the True Primal Guru:

Aad Gurey nameh,

I bow to the Primal Guru.

Jugad Gurey nameh,

I bow to the one Guru in all ages

Satguru deveh nameh,

I bow to that True Guru.

Sree Guru deveh nameh

I bow to that Divine Guru.

Guru Nanak, and all the Guru Sahibans or Bhagat Janas, are all His limited projections, for the only purpose of making Himself known to us, and to teach us the way to love Him, to devote ourselves unto Him through surrender or sharnagatee, in the form of Prem Bhakti of His Simran.

The path of sikhee, is for the soul, which is the true disciple, and it is this disciple, which has gone astray and lost its way of its True house, thus it is the one to be guided by the True Guru, which is none other than Shabad Guru.

So in a way Wahiguru is the Aad Guru, the source of all Light, all truth and all Bliss.

So much debates of, if the physical form of the Guru is their True form of Wahiguru...

Let us see a bit on it.

If it was so, the wicked people who tortured Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj, would have not done so.

If the physical body is the Guru, then surely, Prithi Chand, having one Guru Sahiban as a Father, and another Guru Sahiban as a brother, would have not been wicked at all.

It is the inner Jot of these mahapurkhs, which is the True Guru, which, when the soul has the darshan within, the mind stops all "durmat" or "manmat".

Why do we say the inner form is True Guru, because that swaroop never changes, is never altered, or modified.

So we may now ask, how to manifest that inner True Guru within us.

To this question, Dhan Dhan Satguru Amar Das Maharaj gives us the answer in Anand Sahib:

Naam jinke man vaseeya, vajeh Shabad ganere.

Once we collect back our surtee within, with the jugtee of Naam Simran, we remove the rust and wax of our filthy karmas, then we gradually start to listen that sweet madhur Bani within us, and also have the Darshan of the Jot emanating from that Shabad.

So it is obvious from the Bani, that all the Guru Sahibans are of course lovely and utmost sweet to us, but it is their inner reality, which is Naam or Shabad, which is the real Guru, which is not born, nor does it ever dies, but rather is a Dhara, which has emerged from Satnam Samundar, to hold and catch those wadbhagee jeevas as Dhun, and take them safely back, into the Apaar and beant Satnam Samundar, namely Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Sat Sree Akal.

[Kira]

Guru Angad Dev ji and Guru Amar Das Ji too I believe were once followers of Hinduism, I believe it was Guru Amar Das Ji that was a devotee of Durga. Through the grace of Waheguru they found the True Guru and with their help they achieved the ultimate state of bliss and become one with the lord. No Mahapurkh and certainly never our own Guru Sahib's referred to themselves as Waheguru. Waheguru encompasses the full might and splendor of the lord. By calling them Waheguru we're also suggesting their physical forms were a part of Waheguru, that their physical self was also waheguru.

We need to peer into our Guru Sahib's history. Where Prithi Chand tried to kill Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Maharaj, Where Guru Amar Das Ji was assaulted by a son of Guru Angad Ji Maharaj, Our Guru Arjun Dev Ji was viciously tortured by the establishment of the time, or even when Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji lay down his head after being tortured by Aurangzeb. as Harsharan Bhaji said by referring to Our Guru Sahib's as a whole as being Waheguru we're limiting Waheguru, Their souls were one with Waheguru. Their physical forms were inconsequential.

That is why we refer to them as Raab da Roop. A form of Waheguru, and not Waheguru.

[harsharan000]

One thing is clear, the original form of the Truth is Satnam, is Shabad, is Naam.

It is this one Truth, which whenever by its very own "Mauj" decides to come at our human level, it comes only in a human form in order to explain us(jeeva atmas) the higher truths and inspire us in doing the real bhakti, that also for the benefit for getting free from the Chaurasee ka chakar, and return back to our True Home, Sach Khand.

Becasue if that power comes as an animal, bird or plant, we can never ever understand them, secondly, it is below the human form, which is considered the top of the creation.

So you see, Wahiguru can never ever go in the sub human levels.

Because, to return back to Him, only the mankind has that privilege.

Once Wahiguru, finishes His particular job for that particular time, he returns back, discarding the human body covering, because there there is no gross matter, nor astral, neither causal...only true spirituality.

It is not like, for example when He was embodied as Guru Nanak, then in the swaroop of Guru Angad Dev Maharaj, later Guru Amar Das...and so on with the other Guru Sahibans, that we think, each time He comes here, He goes on collecting those forms and keeps them there in Sach Khand.

Plus all the shaheeds, or so many Bhagats or Gurmukhs throughout the history...all of them together there. Like in a concert or in a football match.

No.

That is our poor limited vision, if we think so. As said above, His True form is of Nirankar, of Shabad, of Naam. So when He goes back after completing His purpose of coming and dwelling among us, He resumes His original sawroop of Shabad.

It is we people who are used to the diversity, and the more the better we think it will be. But through Sikhee, we come to know, Wahiguru is only One, and that too formless, and whosoever ever returns back there to Sach Khand, becomes one with Him without any distinctions.

This is His wadeeayee, that once a dirty drop like us, gets purified by His Grace, and turns out into an infinite Ocean like Himself.

But we manmukhs, not satisfied with this His Daat, we want to keep our identities even after reaching there, and that is impossible, because there we are mindless,(individual identity is due to the covering of the mind on us), thus truly one with the Shabad.

Such is His Beant mahantaa... Oouch Apaar Soami, kaun jaane guna Tere.

Wah Wah Sachay Patshah.

Sat Sree Akal.

[Akalifauj]

e

[Kira]

Here are more lines of Gurbani telling us who were the Gurus. I read all the opinions put forward by these different posters, but only the Guru's Bani is perfect and free of manmat.

ਸੋਰਠੇ ॥

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਪਾਰਥਉ ਚਾਲੈ ਨਹੀ ॥

Guru Arjun is the certified Primal Person; like Arjuna, He never leaves the field of battle.

ਨੇਜਾ ਨਾਮ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਵਾਰਿਅਉ ॥੧॥

The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is His spear and insignia. He is embellished with the Shabad, the Word of the True Guru. ||1||

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

ਮੂਰਤਿ ਪੰਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਿਖਹੁ ਨਯਣ ॥੧॥

With your eyes, see the certified Primal Person, Guru Arjun, the Fifth Manifestation of the Guru. ||1||

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਜਹਾਜੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਗਲ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਟਿ ਲਗਿ ਬਿਤਰਹੁ ॥੨॥

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, Guru Arjun is the Boat; attached to him, the entire universe is safely carried across. ||2||

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਮਯ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਗੁਰੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੈ ਹੇਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਰਹਿਓ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਾਮ ਸਿਉ ॥੩॥

Guru Arjun is the All-pervading Lord God of Mat'huraa. Devoted to His Worship, he remains attached to the Lord's Feet. ||3||

These lines of Gurbani are from one ang, yet they don't come in the order placed here. Hence I placed a line before the next tuk to show they are not in order. Above Gurbani is from ang 1408

and once again you decided to take everything out of context.

One of the tukhs you posted refers to Guru Arjun dev Ji as being armed with the name of god. Do you see that tukh and then you politely ignored what was written before.

BY inrBau mwixAau lwK mih AlKu lKwXau ] (1408-1)

bhai nirbha-o maani-a-o laakh meh alakh lakhaa-ya-o.

In the Fear of God, You enjoy the Fearless Lord; among the thousands of beings, You see the Unseen Lord.

It would help if you didn't discrete Gurbani by pulling only the tukhs and panna and deciding not to read all the surrounding Gurbani. No one here denied that any of our Guru Sahib's were one with the primal lord. But by calling them Waheguru we're insulting their nimrata and then implying that Waheguru should he take a form, that form could be injured?

Do you know why our Guru Sahib's refused to preform Miracles like the Hindu gods? it was to stop people referring to them as God or even gods. Aurangzeb in all his fury demanded Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji perform a miracle for him but the Guru Sahib refused.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

and once again you decided to take everything out of context.

One of the tukhs you posted refers to Guru Arjun dev Ji as being armed with the name of god. Do you see that tukh and then you politely ignored what was written before.

BY inrBau mwixAau lwK mih AlKu lKwXau ] (1408-1)

bhai nirbha-o maani-a-o laakh meh alakh lakhaa-ya-o.

In the Fear of God, You enjoy the Fearless Lord; among the thousands of beings, You see the Unseen Lord.

It would help if you didn't discrete Gurbani by pulling only the tukhs and panna and deciding not to read all the surrounding Gurbani. No one here denied that any of our Guru Sahib's were one with the primal lord. But by calling them Waheguru we're insulting their nimrata and then implying that Waheguru should he take a form, that form could be injured?

Do you know why our Guru Sahib's refused to preform Miracles like the Hindu gods? it was to stop people referring to them as God or even gods. Aurangzeb in all his fury demanded Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji perform a miracle for him but the Guru Sahib refused.

It's actually much more clearer and direct in Bhai Gurdas Di Vaar that to the Sikh the Guru and Vaheguru are one with no difference.