Dalit Turned Sikh Forms ‘Mini Punjab’ In Bihar After Facing Rejection In Punjab

[JSinghnz]

Singhnz

Do you have anything constructive to say instead of barking. You have made no effort in what I have said. You have no idea of the context of what is being said.

There is an underlying assumption that caste is an issue solely in particular of one group of Sikhs, one that is stereotypically shown as all puff chested and traditionally involved in farming and agriculture when it really isn't.

So I asked the question of what these examples of this discrimination that other groups of Sikhs get from this particular Sikh of which there is no answer.

I don't whether you are a born and bred Kiwi or one that came over from India on a student visa awaiting his PR but I have worked with many Kiwis and they are usually a very intelligent people and they would have had a much better understanding of what I have to say.

Your language shows your low level, crude background and very poor social skills.

Your assumptions and understanding clearly shows your inferiority complex and lack of any intellect whatsoever.

[Ranjeet01]

Your language shows your low level, crude background and very poor social skills.

Your assumptions and understanding clearly shows your inferiority complex and lack of any intellect whatsoever.

LOL!

[dallysingh101]

Perceived attitude is one thing, discrimination is another.

I think that caste is far more exaggerated issue in our community than we realise.

I asked this question to Dallysingh101, he could not answer it.

I do do other things beside post on forums, so forgive me if I don't respond to you straight away.

I think you are typical of the root causes of the problem, by this I mean by your denialist mentality. It's very common for people from your background to play down or deny what emanates from your quarter. Fortunately, more and more people are seeing things for what they are and rejecting the brainwashing of their families for a more honest, open and frankly humane and Sikhi orientated worldview over outdated, small minded, rural, pseudo-feudal worldviews in the 21st century.

Our community faces the same struggle in this internal battle that we did with the grooming and sexual abuse issue. People were in straight denial about it and didn't want to acknowledge it for A LONG TIME. Like with the abuse issue, people who've faced discrimination aren't usually especially keen to highlight the issue or complain, especially when society (in Panjab) is actually dominated by people who are quiet happy with the status quo. Then there is also the matter of demeaning nature of the abuse whether in the form of verbal abuse or higher up the scale with the sexual abuse of females of so-called 'low-caste'. And we all know that our societies attitude towards the latter and the way it damages girls prospects for marriage. But, despite this some people do speak out and people do acknowledge and try and combat this.

Here is some stuff for your perusal. Might make you a bit better informed about reality.

Definitely read this:

http://www.global.ucsb.edu/punjab/dissertations/NBehlDissertation.pdf

Mate, you don't have to go very far to find examples. There is a lot more you can easily find if you can be bothered. I can only guess that you doing one (or more) of the below things that Natasha Behl identified as strategies used by people to obfuscate the caste issue?

Behl, during her research, unfortunately found most Sikhs will react in one of 3 ways to continue talking about equality, but also continuing to discriminate in their daily practices:

1. Distancing – they distance themselves from discriminatory actions by shifting responsibility onto others
2. Narrowing – they obscure specific types of discrimination through the use of a narrow definition of equality, thus rendering specific discriminatory acts harmless.
3. Shifting Blame - A majority of the respondents explain the structural position of Scheduled Caste Sikhs and Sikh women through a series of ontological narratives that minimize their own participation in discriminatory practices by shifting focus to Scheduled Caste Sikhs' and Sikh women's behavior, state policies, and degrees of religious observance.

But it's cool. I believe in Waheguru and I believe in karma. And anyone supporting or trying to deny the disgraceful behaviour that takes place from certain sections of our community will have it coming back to them or their progeny in future.

Sikhi can't be all bad, since those high caste Sikhs provided him the board to live on their land, three square meals, paid him enough wages to send back to Bihar for him to buy land, property and money for his family. What's more he embraced Sikhi, it has empowered him to live amongst Sikhs which he has emparted with fellow Biharis.

If people see the beauty of Sikhi despite the ugly actions of certain people claiming to represent Sikhi it doesn't make their actions excusable.

[Ranjeet01]

I do do other things beside post on forums, so forgive me if I don't respond to you straight away.

I think you are typical of the root causes of the problem, by this I mean by your denialist mentality. It's very common for people from your background to play down or deny what emanates from your quarter. Fortunately, more and more people are seeing things for what they are and rejecting the brainwashing of their families for a more honest, open and frankly humane and Sikhi orientated worldview over outdated, small minded, rural, pseudo-feudal worldviews in the 21st century.

Our community faces the same struggle in this internal battle that we did with the grooming and sexual abuse issue. People were in straight denial about it and didn't want to acknowledge it for A LONG TIME. Like with the abuse issue, people who've faced discrimination aren't usually especially keen to highlight the issue or complain, especially when society (in Panjab) is actually dominated by people who are quiet happy with the status quo. Then there is also the matter of demeaning nature of the abuse whether in the form of verbal abuse or higher up the scale with the sexual abuse of females of so-called 'low-caste'. And we all know that our societies attitude towards the latter and the way it damages girls prospects for marriage. But, despite this some people do speak out and people do acknowledge and try and combat this.

Here is some stuff for your perusal. Might make you a bit better informed about reality.

Definitely read this:

http://www.global.ucsb.edu/punjab/dissertations/NBehlDissertation.pdf

Mate, you don't have to go very far to find examples. There is a lot more you can easily find if you can be bothered. I can only guess that you doing one (or more) of the below things that Natasha Behl identified as strategies used by people to obfuscate the caste issue?

Behl, during her research, unfortunately found most Sikhs will react in one of 3 ways to continue talking about equality, but also continuing to discriminate in their daily practices:

• Distancing they distance themselves from discriminatory actions by shifting responsibility onto others
• Narrowing they obscure specific types of discrimination through the use of a narrow definition of equality, thus rendering specific discriminatory acts harmless.
• Shifting Blame - A majority of the respondents explain the structural position of Scheduled Caste Sikhs and Sikh women through a series of ontological narratives that minimize their own participation in discriminatory practices by shifting focus to Scheduled Caste Sikhs' and Sikh women's behavior, state policies, and degrees of religious observance.

But it's cool. I believe in Waheguru and I believe in karma. And anyone supporting or trying to deny the disgraceful behaviour that takes place from certain sections of our community will have it coming back to them or their progeny in future.

If people see the beauty of Sikhi despite the ugly actions of certain people claiming to represent Sikhi it doesn't make their actions excusable.

Thanks for those links and I will look at them in more detail.

I do not have a denialist mentality but I do try to look at things critically and objectively from all angles.

Our culture cannot be framed in some western pseudo - leftist lens which is in black and white, things are far more complex than things appear.

Therefore the casteism is used as a blanket term without actually what the root causes are.

[dallysingh101]

Therefore the casteism is used as a blanket term without actually what the root causes are.

The root cause is straight forward. Ego and greed.

Glad that you're going to read up about it. And for the record, I don't view things from any western (left or rightwing or anywhere inbetween) lens. No arguments about 'complexity' can ever justify a lack of humanity and compassion amongst Sikhs in this matter.

Be careful not to (even subconsciously) let people off lightly because you belong to the same tribal construct as them.

Good luck with your research!

[Ranjeet01]

The root cause is straight forward. Ego and greed.

Glad that you're going to read up about it. And for the record, I don't view things from any western (left or rightwing or anywhere inbetween) lens. No arguments about 'complexity' can ever justify a lack of humanity and compassion amongst Sikhs in this matter.

Be careful not to (even subconsciously) let people off lightly because you belong to the same tribal construct as them.

Good luck with your research!

For someone who claims to have compassion and talks about ego and greed, it is an observation that people who may have different point of view have been labelled denialist, tribalist, small - minded, feudal.

It can be seen that one who claims to be opened minded has already placed judgement on a particular section of people.

Nobody has let off anyone lightly with anything, it's a discussion.

I think it is a useful exercise to disect this issue and look at it analytically.

[dallysingh101]

Mate, it isn't a coincidence that everyone and their cat within the quom seems to be move away from jats after interacting with them, be it by forming their own Gurdwaras or even leaving the faith altogether.

Why is this? Is it that they smell really bad or something? No. At the root of this lies some seriously haughty,obnoxious, supercilious behaviour from that quarter; and then a denial that it takes place. It's a sad reality and it is more than high time to face this issue squarely head on. I don't care what excuses anyone has - it's straight unacceptable.

Then certain people have the gall to complain about people moving away instead of reflecting on their own communities behaviour; or try and twist it into some issue of 'lack of faith' on part of those on the receiving end like the people should accept systematically demeaning behaviour - . If people persistently behave in an horrid way, any person with even a tiny shred of self-esteem will naturally move away.

Face up to it. This crap has been going on long enough. There is no need for any protracted debate on the matter, that just naturally leads to obfuscation. That type of attitude and behaviour is just not on. End of.

I've said my piece now. And I've given you some evidence like you asked. There is plenty more you can find if you're really interested.

Reflect after you've watched those vids and read that dissertation. This isn't a personal attack on you btw, but seriously, this issue causing so much contention and fragmentation amongst us (not to mention that it has been going on for so long) that pu55y footing around it doesn't wash. That time has passed.

[Ranjeet01]

Mate, it isn't a coincidence that everyone and their cat within the quom seems to be move away from jats after interacting with them, be it by forming their own Gurdwaras or even leaving the faith altogether.

Why is this? Is it that they smell really bad or something? No. At the root of this lies some seriously haughty,obnoxious, supercilious behaviour from that quarter; and then a denial that it takes place. It's a sad reality and it is more than high time to face this issue squarely head on. I don't care what excuses anyone has - it's straight unacceptable.

Then certain people have the gall to complain about people moving away instead of reflecting on their own communities behaviour; or try and twist it into some issue of 'lack of faith' on part of those on the receiving end like the people should accept systematically demeaning behaviour - . If people persistently behave in an horrid way, any person with even a tiny shred of self-esteem will naturally move away.

Face up to it. This crap has been going on long enough. There is no need for any protracted debate on the matter, that just naturally leads to obfuscation. That type of attitude and behaviour is just not on. End of.

I've said my piece now. And I've given you some evidence like you asked. There is plenty more you can find if you're really interested.

Reflect after you've watched those vids and read that dissertation. This isn't a personal attack on you btw, but seriously, this issue causing so much contention and fragmentation amongst us (not to mention that it has been going on for so long) that pu55y footing around it doesn't wash. That time has passed.

I think you have a particular anti-jatt stance.

I have not seen in any posts here of any Jatt in particular have any gripe against any Sikh of any other background.

If there is a problem with castes then it would be a collective problem.

A lot of Ramgharia gurdwarae were set up because our East African friends wanted commitee power as they consider themselves superior to the janvers from Punjab. However, today do we seen any non - Ramgharias on the commitee in these gurdwarae, whether they are Sainis,Khamboj,Mazhabi or Khatris?

We don't, therefore they are just as bad as the Jatt dominated commitee members in Singh Sabha gurdwarae.

A small group of people do not reflect on the rest of the Sikhs.

[S1ngh]

I have to agree with Ranjeet that we should not throw everything up in air and start blaming something that is not yet proven.

Pin point the issue/mistake and then see how to solve them.

I am sure that all biharis in punjab are not probably treated fairly regardless of their dharam.

[genie]

Well at least these dalit brothers are actually spreading Sikhi unlike the drunk Jatts of today who are actually no better than the corrupt Hindu brahmin priest's that gurbani talks of.

Majority of the best punjab based Jatt Sikhs were killed off in from 1940s to 1990s by the brahmin ruled hindtva indian govt. Now we are left with the corrupt castists ones that are easier to control by the Indian establishment or jailed for years on false charges if they step out of line. Just as the British white Christian / freemason imperialists had killed of the best Sikh warriors and ideologues by buying off princely rulers, military commanders with money and goods when they invaded the Punjab so that only the weak liberal easily brought Sikhs would remain to decline the Sikh empire and population.