What do you guys think ..

[Gupt daasan daas]

agaiin id justlike to point out sant kartaar singh je went through the exact thing where they wre told hair wud be removed for operation, and they rfused, thus there return to sach khand

bhula chuka maf

[japmans]

hmm...

i'm going to make a comment, relevant to the times.... i'm not looking for pity, i'm not looking for sympathy, so keep that to yourself if that's your first reaction from this post.

my naani ma.. my mother's mother... is set to die in the next few hours.

i found this out earlier this evening..

her heart had already stopped, but they revived her.... this gave my mother the opportunity to drive from ottawa to toronto to see her one more time...

and it only reaffirms my stance on this... thank the good lord that happened, cuz i'm glad my mother still had the chance to see her mother before she died.

she's in her 80's... and her heart stopped today, and they revived her... she's supposed to survive the night, but after that, she's bound to go....

your opinion is what it is, but thank god those paramedics revived her, at least for a little while, enough for my mother to be with her own mother on her deathbed.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

continuing with JSS's 1984 analogy:

So the many singhs and kaurs who were laying there on the parkarma dying from bullet wounds, it is good that the army medics did not help them because most likely to remove a bullet from a singh's chest, hair would have to be removed...

I think GuruSahib promotes life...If you are going to cut your hair to save yourself from oppression then it is wrong, but if your doctor can save you from simple common human disorders, it's all good.

dulB dyh pweI vfBwgI ] (188-5, gauVI, mÚ 5)

dulabh dayh paa-ee vadbhaagee.

This human body is so difficult to obtain; it is only obtained by great good fortune.

nwmu n jpih qy Awqm GwqI ]1] (188-5, gauVI, mÚ 5)

naam na jaapeh tay aatam ghaatee. ||1||

Those who do not meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, are murderers of the soul. ||1||

Wouldn't sikhs rather die on the battlefield like the sikh national anthem says in Deh Siva Bar Mohe Hai, or would a sikh rather die from appendicitis?

[Kharkoo4Life]

I think this question highlights one of the most prevalent shortcomings in the Sikh community today. We have begun to treat our religion, or kakkars, our Sikhi as mere symbols. "SYmbols" we have great respect and pride in yet do not understand the meaning of. IN so many cases there are sikhs who proudly claim that i have never cut a single thread of hair on my body ever, or i have never touched drugs or tobacco etc yet countless times at work, at home, with freinds, relatives they lie, cheat, deceive and exploit. How many of us out there have ever downloaded a song off the internet wihout purchasing the full CD from the store. Isnt that stealing? How many have burned Cd's in their cars? Is it right for one to enjoy off anothers hard work and efforts without giving them their rightful credit and payment?

This is not an attempt to say that we shud give less importance to hair in our life. Absolutely 100% we shud never voluntarily cut our hair for mere comsetic reasons or gettin out of psychogically or physicaly oppressive situations. Thousands of Sikhs, begining with Guru Arjan Dev ji laid down their life rather than give up their SIkhi and so shud we. But we shud also understand this Sikhi and not jus treat it like some coveted, sacred relic which we hold to blindly without any gyaan or sojee.

No one will argue that alcohol is forbidden for a sikh, and no true sikh wud in their right mind ever go out and pour a glassi, or knock back a shot. But has anyone ever considered to think how many medicaitons out their, all the way to the simple cough syrup contain trace amounts of alcohol in them. Does this mean that any Sikh who takes cough syrup should be excommunicated? Alcohol is forbidden for purposes of mere mental or phsyical pleasure, but if small traces are added to make a medicaito more effective then in no means is that wrong. Who knows how many babies (or adults) wud needlessly suffer pain and agony from a multitude of illnesses because of our own ignorance.

Similary with hair i agree, we shud never voluntarily cut it for superficial reasons. But if an otherwise simple procedure as appendicitis cannot be performed simply cuz the pt feels that shavin 2inches of their skin for a lifesaving procedure will make them a tankhayia then of what use is it even to have medical facilities, doctors or ORs? Obviously one shud respect the personal beliefs and wishes of the patient and place them foremost before any procedure and if one refuses to cut that portion of hair that is their choice. But Gurmat does not in any way condemn the need to cut hair strictly for medical pruposes. Nor does it condemn th use of drugs/alcohol for medicinal purposes. Some of u may know that apart from alcohol, numerous drugs, including cocaine is present in a wide array of medications perscribed by doctors. WHo knows how many lives were saved by them. Werent these drugs given to us by God for a reason or was he so naive and foolish to make them unecesarily without thinking. Everythin in this world can be used for good or bad, but that does not make that item in itself evil. It is the intent and purpose behind its use that matters.

So if shor if one chooses not to shave their skin for defibrillation than that is their own individual choice and shud be respected but please do not associate such a decision wiht Sikhi.

[jss]

gurpreet singh...

for any discussion to be effective and have some proper outcome REQUIRES us to read others thoughts, do vichar on them...not just stick to our points of view without making some logical points...or at least responding to others' points...it does not require a SCHOLAR to do that!

it doesn't make much sense in starting threads and taking part in threads if you're not ready for a discussion...

[Gurpreet Singh]

Jasdeep Singh Ji..U know i got mad respect for u...but seriously thats my decision up to this point...in the future it may change or may not change...i didn't mean to offend u or anything..i still got loads to learn...and im learning but I stand by my point at the moment...and i was just giving my opinion and clearing up what i thought i should.and as the title says what do u guys think...thats what i think and im reading ur points and everyone else's points...this is my last post on this topic ..i know im nowhere close to u guys where sikhi is concerned..forgive my ignorance bro....

[Gupt daasan daas]

to commit a bujjar kureight even if ure life depends on it is forbidden

just look at wat sant kartaar singh je did

perfect example

but to actually come up to the situation and have to face it isnt the same thing as sitting behind a comp. screen and typing, so unless we have very pakai sikhi wale man like sant je, it wud b hard for some not to remove some hair

bhula chuka maf

[jss]

gupt dasaan das

i take issue with your statement "to commit a bujjar kurehit even is your life depends on it it..."

is it not true that guru gobind singh ji ate meat when he was being taken as uch da pir?? is it not also true that it was in fact halal meat???

you can read about this in Suraj Parkash granth as well as in bhai vir singh ji's kalgidhar chamatkar...

and before you try to say that its not a true sakhi...i'd check with taksaal..cuz taksaal does santhiya of gurbani and also teaches sikh history from Suraj parkash...so i'm sure they'll tell you that it's true...

of course eating meat is a kurehit...but i've always heard in a life and death situaion...you can eat it... did the singhs not start eating their own flesh at one point when beseiged in anandpur sahib?...does that not count as eating meat? - actually..i don't have reference for this one, but it's what i've been told...i will look for further references of this..cuz i find it annoying when other people post stories without telling where they got it from..and i'm guessin it annoys other people too..so i'll look further into this one..

[buddasingh]

Kharkoo nice post. Faced with the situation, I might side with you but not sure. Gurpreet Singh tx for your very dignified replies. I may not do the same as Gurpreet Singh, but I have to have great respect for his position, perhaps more than for my position.

Just to support his thought. If it is OK to take alcohol in medicine, or burn CD’s then one might just make out an argument that for their livelihood and to get a job they will temporarily hide their kirpan, trim their beard etc. Where does it stop?

If I may digress for a moment of uninhibited thought -- I can’t stand beard trimmers!! Nice people, could be my brothers, could be someone I have great respect for otherwise, but UGLY!!! And DISTORTED!!! I would proudly live a meager life before touching my beard. BUT I don’t say no to medication because of a small amount of alcohol.

Is there a slippery slope argument? And just because we may know that we stop at taking medication but never go as far as trimming, does not mean that this is workable for the panth or an entire community.

An example, we stop at a red light in the middle of the night even when there are no cars around and stay stopped. Are we unnecessarily dogmatic? We may be very wise and alert to risks and able to run the red light safely. But we obey the traffic signal because the cost of us staying is worth the benefit the entire society receives. So when a Sikh says no hair will be removed from my body no matter what, I can’t help but have so much respect for that even though I may differ in my opinion.

[Kharkoo4Life]

An example, we stop at a red light in the middle of the night even when there are no cars around and stay stopped. Are we unnecessarily dogmatic? We may be very wise and alert to risks and able to run the red light safely. But we obey the traffic signal because the cost of us staying is worth the benefit the entire society receives. So when a Sikh says no hair will be removed from my body no matter what, I can’t help but have so much respect    for that even though I may differ in my opinion.

109559[/snapback]

I agree with many of ur points, and this topic has the potential to be the footsteps of a very slippery slope. But it is not, at leat in my eyes. U raise the point that one must stop at a red light 24/7 because of both principles (law) and their benefits to society (safety). I agree. But what bout the case where uhave a pregnant woman in labour in ur car, or a man bleeding with lifethreatening injuries in ur car? Is it more ethical and morally right to stay parked at the redlight at 2am with no cars around and risk an otherwise preventable death of the cars occupants? Or wud it be an exception in this scenario and permissible to run the light in an effort to save the precious invaluable lives of the people in distress?

This does not mean that we can jus go randomly breaking laws as we feel cuz out intention behind them is noble. Jus meant to raise some thoughts and questions in everyone that this topic is not so clear cut as some may see it to be. Sikhism is a faith of practicality and simplicity. It is not a book of adhamant rigid rules and regulations which are to be abided by at all cost blindly. That is why the guru granth sahib does not contain a list of commandements, or dos or donts. The gurus were aware that societies, technology, and needs of that society are everchangin with time. That is why the vast majority of decisions are left to the individual to make on their own, granted within the moral framework of Sikhi.

Their are countless cases of minor or major accidents where head injuries occur, or even many common congenital conditions within the brain/head which can be fatal if left untreated. SHould ab ohterwise healthy, young man contributing to society thru work, volunteering, raising family be destined to his death simply cuz some alcoholic driver banged his car into him and left him with a potentially fatal brain hemorraghe? Or a newborn with intracranial swelling or malformation be denied the right to live, learn, grow up, and experience the joys of life simply cuz of a minor otherwise correctable defect in his head? IN both cases shud the people be condemned to death cuz cuttin the hair on their head for temporary operational pruposes wud make them unsikh in these cases? If the answer is yes, then im afraid we'l be falling into the tragic path followed by many other faiths, most notable of which is the jehova's witnesses. To let a child wih bonecancer suffer and die, or a simple operation gone awry not be corrected cuz blood trasnfusion is against the 'rules' of their faith.

The rules wihtin Sikhi are to make our life easier, not more complicated and add confusion. IF we were to apply some common sense and understanding to our reasoning rather than jus loudly waving our arms inthe air and proclaiming how devout we are or undevout others are cuz we follow a "rule properly" i think many of our problems and questions cud be answered thru open dialogue. And that is the puropse of such forums.