***cloning****

[Khalsa_Girl_1]

i watched the island btw lol sick movie

anyways

<admin-profanity filter activated> coloning, who gives a <admin-profanity filter activated>  Waheguru knows its happening he could stop it, if we discover how to clone humans and <admin-profanity filter activated> its OUR choice.  if it wasnt supose to happen or wasnt destined Waheguru would not have created or givinen man this much knowledge.. i belive its our choice.

135304[/snapback]

yo...

like what is it with you and swearing eh? @

at least not on this kind of forum, thank-you. :lol:

please stop.

peace...

[Sinister]

To Gupt daasan daas,

"the more i now understand sceince the more holes i see in it, extremly large holes in many theris"

If its not to much trouble, would you kindly like to share your veiws of these "holes"?

The main reason people see holes in science is because they dont have a complete set of knowledge about it (That includes me)! The same way people see holes in our religion, Why--> because they lack complete knowledge of it! (that includes my also....lol)

do you see this dramatic tradeoff within our minds.

And as for the gurus, they could not conceive of where science was going to go because it is entirely dependant upon the decisions of man. Sure, God might have given us a mind to think, but god also gave us a FREE WILL, under a strict mandate.

unless we beleive that God is phsycic and sees into the future. Again why would god let us loose on the earth if we were just mere puppets and He new the ending?

Therefore if we beleive in Free Will then fate is more powerful than god, If we beleive in predestination then God know where science is going and Knows where it is going to end.

I have no opinion on the matter! I will not comment any further, I have strayed way off topic.

To Khalsa Girl,

"but what i dont understand is that if we can do it to animals, then why hasnt any human been cloned. what you said still doesnt answer that question, even though youve talked about it already. if we can take chances on animals, then why not humans? "

Thats a really good question but the answer is trivial

Humans veiw the environement and that includes the animals as a "COMMODITY" that is expendible and that can be manipulated/traded.

Humans are not veiwed in this manner, thus making a human is useless or how do I put it NON-PROFITABLE?

Cloning humans is impossible (currently) and if it were feasable it would be highly unprofitable, we are really ineffecient things that consume alot of energy and resources PLUS there's 6 BILLION of us and that number is growing! no need to clone something that is already in HIGH SUPPLY (referring to Manpower).

would anyone want to buy a cloned human for their personal use? sounds kinda sick if you ask me. Why wouldn't you just get a normal human, there's 6 billion of us?

[Gupt daasan daas]

ok sisnter we wil not stray off of topic

but gurbanee does say vaheguru knows all tha has passes, and all tha will pass

this is merley his play set into action

but w/e we are all learners

im sure i am wrong many times, guru je will teach me:)

as for holes in science

such as in a vacuole

there are no atoms or no substances at ALL?

hmm intresting and when i posed this question tomy physics teacher

his respense tome was

btw hes a siikkk safe teacher,makes u think of things

but

bak t the point

for example the vacuoles in space, if they are consiting of nothing, then how are they there?

theremus tbe smething that makes them up

such as the theroy of the first celland creation

that all cells emerge from the first cell

wat the heckk

where did that come from?

so the entire universe is just a huge coincidence?

i dunt think so

obiviously there is a larger power behind these acts

there are many many tings, and as i learn more i get more curious into these things and they are very intrsting

sceince is ill

to me is makes me jus go wow man, holy

vahegurus play is such a beautful and complex one, its not no ordinary thing

its extremoly complex, and vaheguru created al of this?

woww , to me thas jus aamzing

but sceince for now has its holes

in its theriors

did u kno tha whn proving albert einstiens theroies, the sceintists actuall discareded the data that did not prove his theroy, and pretended like it didnt happen:S( ma physics teachers tells us mad stuff like this, hes a young guy, so he loves this stuff i guess)

there are many books u can read on stuff like this

but w/e lol this aint no science forum

im sure i got much more to leanr, i do

but

its obvious sceince is not a complete knowledge yet

it has many holes in ites theriors when u ask the teachers they cant asnwer, because they aint gonna say tha god is the power beihind all these actions, but w/e

as for the topic

i see nutin wrong wit clonin

its not like tis a bad thing to have medical advances

if it is, i dunt see y guru je wud give out rare medicines

its sall gud man

it can save lives

bhula chuka maf

[Sinister]

To Panneet,

"I would rather trust God to not let humanity drift to extinction (or maybe let it drift to extinction if that's God's Will) than 'let off' a few rabbits and chimps. They're still living beings with souls and feelings... it isn't right to let them suffer!"

animal cruelty, well you know

Try telling that to a mother whos child is dying of a disease that has no cure!

Did you know that Insulin is developed in transgenic animals (Cow and Pig pancreas)! My fathers a diabetic and so is 2.5% of this worlds population, his existance is dependant on insulin.. people dont really want to lose the people that they care about when they know a cure exists and is effective in saving lives.

Will a lion show mercy to his prey! OF COURSE NOT

his entire existance depends on him eating.

IN the same way our future depends on us dominating other species.

Its ok you can fire off all you want...lol...I do it all the time.

Now for cloning people.......that I will have to agree with you is wrong, but its probably not going to happen.

[Gupt daasan daas]

sinister je is right 100 percent man

that is the law of nature

in order to survive sometimes other species are not so lucky...

thas just the way this play works

look in nature

sinsters example is a good one

will a lion show mercy to its prey?

y not?

cause if it does it will die

snsinter has given very good examples

i also wanna rmind peole guru je used leather sheaths, so its not like we cant use animals to help humans

now what i do NOT agree to

is hurting animals for something stupid like makeup

thas jus stupid

but for some medcines we have, i think its is perfectly ok to do this

bhula chuka maf

[Sinister]

Now Now Gupt dasaan das

Lets not jump into rationale that I dont know about out either.

I dont know all the science myself...I see holes...but I know these holes will be patched up as we advance in our quest for knowledge. The Idea comes down to faith, either you have faith in humanity or you dont (and thats entirely your opinion). Drawing remarkable parallels to SIKHI, EITHER you have faith or you dont.

But the reason why you think theres holes in science is because science is a never ending process.

You cant classify science as an Incomplete faith because the word "COMPLETION" does not exist in he mind of a scientist.

the first thing my professors told me when I walked into class was,

"In order to be great scientists one must accept that life was created by chance and not by choice"

"Science will never be complete, and thats the beuaty of it that we must accept"

Whether I agree with this statement or not, I will not comment, I just stated it so that you can get the mindset of where a scientist is coming from and what quest he/she is on to prove themselves.

Science answers its "holes" with time and effort the same way religion does. Except in Science new holes emerge.

ALTHOUGH THE TIME MAY BE MUCH LONGER WITH RESPECT TO SCIENCE.

[Kharkoo4Life]

And as for the gurus, they could not conceive of where science was going to go because it is entirely dependant upon the decisions of man. Sure, God might have given us a mind to think, but god also gave us a FREE WILL, under a strict mandate.

unless we beleive that God is phsycic and sees into the future. Again why would god let us loose on the earth if we were just mere puppets and He new the ending?

Therefore if we beleive in Free Will then fate is more powerful than god, If we beleive in predestination then God know where science is going and Knows where it is going to end.

I have no opinion on the matter! I will not comment any further, I have strayed way off topic.

135321[/snapback]

I agree with your first two points, first that no man can predict the direction and future of science, it is everychanging and shall forever remain that way, and second that God have us a FREE WILL but within the confines of a strict mandate (also known as Hukam in gurbani). You are spot on with both these points.

hm jwinAw kCU n jwnh AwgY ijau hir rwKY iqau TwFy ]

I know nothing, and I do not know the future; as the Lord keeps me, so do I stand.

And it is those who fall into the trap that the future cant harm them, that they are powerful beyond all measure and that no harm can come to them who get engrossed in their own ego and later repent for their misdeed and thoughts.

jy mn jwxih sUlIAw kwhy imTw Kwih ]3]

O mind, if you only knew the torment in your future, you would not relish the sweet pleasures of the present.

However, unless i am interpreting your remarks incorrectly i would have to disagree with you on the latter points u raise. U question if God is a psychic and can see into the future? FIrstly time is just an aritficial construct of man, conceived by his limited ability to grasp this universe. The qualites and restricions of time do not exist in the spiritual world as they do to us in our physical world (science). That is why gurbani meniotns time n time again that God, Guru, and Sant are all eternal (beyond life and death, i.e. beyond limitations of time)

idRstau kCu sMig n jwie mwnu iqAwig mohw

Nothing of the visible world shall go along with you; abandon your pride and attachment.

Whatever we see with our eyes will eventually one day disappear. So what then remains?

nwmu rihE swDU rihE rihE guru goibMdu ]

The Naam remains; the Holy Saints remain; the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, remains.

Yes we have free will, but the Will of God (hukam) overrides this. I know it is hard to understand and even more difficult to explain, and only those who truly understand it and are at that stage can do so. But we are told that regardless of our free will, the driving power behind it is still God.

hir AMqrjwmI sBqY vrqY jyhw hir krwey qyhw ko kreIAY ]

The Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts, is all-pervading. As the Lord causes them to act, so do they act

U raise the possiblity that fate is more powerful than God, well what is fate? A driving force behind us directing our actions. And is this not what God does? And as u also raise the question does this mean we are jus puppets, well the simple answer is yes.

mwtI kI ieh puqrI jorI ikAw eyh krm kmwis ]

This body-puppet is made of clay - what can it do by itself?

This throws us into the cyclic questioning of if he is all knower and doer then what remains of free will. To grasp this we must first admit that we, as humans can NEVER FULLY GRASP the entirety of God. He is byond us.

jo iqsu BwvY so QIAY nwnk ikAw mwnuK ]7]11]

Whatever pleases Him, comes to pass. O Nanak, what is the fate of mankind?

Awdysu bwbw Awdysu ]

Hail to You, O Father Lord, Hail to You!

Awid purK qyrw AMqu n pwieAw kir kir dyKih vys ]1] rhwau ]

O Primal Lord. Your limits are not known; You create, and create, and behold the scenes.

We can however, experience Him, if we choose to abide by his Hukam. (and since it is a choice we make to abide or not abide by his will, it in essence is what our free will is about.) One who comes to understand all this, like the GUru, ithey too remove their minds from the grips of time (past, present, future) and come to know God. So for us to questoin their capacity to know bout the future or not is irrelevant for:

BUq BivKhuM vrqmwn iqRBvx soJI mwx inmwxY]

The Sikh now knows the future, present and past but he gets honours by becoming humble.

So why dont they just go out n tell us the future? What need for them to still live like the rest of us, toiling in everyday work, reading, family raising etc. Cuz they remain HUMBLE and do not go against the will of God, ie. do not interfere with the course of the future. INstead they are of the mindset:

qUM swihbu hau sWgI qyrw pRxvY nwnku jwiq kYsI ]4]1]33]

You are the Lord Master, I am just Your puppet. Prays Nanak, what is my social status to be?

So in short just remember that man, science all have limitations. They are bound by the constraints of time for they all exist at a physical level. Thus they can never predict the future. God/spirituality are beyond these constraints. Thus the capacity of theirs is unlimited.

AwgY pwCY gxq n AwvY ikAw jwqI ikAw huix hUey ]

No account can be made of the future or the past; who knows what shall be, or what was?

sBu krxw ikrqu kir ilKIAY kir kir krqw kry kry ]

All the actions and events of the past are recorded; the Doer did, He does, and He will do.

[Gupt daasan daas]

i belive that if we learn to let go of our ego and accept vaheguru je one day sceince can be a completly perfect tool for humans

perfect

but if we doubt the existance of vaheguru

the obviously

ure gonna keep on having problems such as

where did the first cell come from?

u must realise the great creator working everything, the cause of causes

this is the one thing of science i am agasint

that its all CHANCE

nowi agree wa i am goin to post is ma BELIEF and opinion

but

do u really think the unvierse, life, is all chance?

and once u see the way sceince works, how life works, how bacteria, archea, the small forms of life, all the way to huge animals such as big whales work anf function, how the earth is a t perfect tempatures for life, this in ma opinion cannot be chance

this is all caused by the cause of causes, akaal

but if u do not belive this, i cannot prove this to u, and u cannot prove ure opinon t me

but i can say that vaheguru cannot be comphrended, only expirenced

bhula chuka maf

[some singh]

personally i think cloning is just plain wrong, i mean who are we to "play" god. god gave us a life span and once that life span is up, your dead. and as sinister said on the first page of this thread that it is not against religion, i disagree with that. our gurus were anterjami, they knew everything of the past, present and future. so i think cloning is just like cheating death in some ways. so in conclusion, i think cloning is anit-gurmat. bhul chuk maaf and please sangat jio, dont attack me becuase these are just my opinions.

[Kharkoo4Life]

One more thing, are we just mere puppets involved in a play to which god knows the ending? Again, simple answer is yes. Consider a stage director. He has already written the opnening and closing of the entire play and how it will run. He hands out to his actors scripts to read and actions to carry out. Now during hte course of the live play performance, the actors may sometimes improvise, add their own lines, changes some action scenes etc. , however the ending of that play will remain how the director wants it, for he is the director and has final say!

SImilarly in life, God is the director, this world the stage, and the actors us humans. He has already given us a script to carry out ( his Hukam) and the ending of this play is known only to him. However, during the course of this plays performance (our life) we may make slight alterations/inclusions of our own thoughts and desires (thru free will) but the end result will not change. Godwill decide that for he has final say!

I know the above example does not explain it completely and many faults can be found in it, but it is merely an attempt to help us understand what u refer to as the 'fate' of man. For us to get absorbed in discusing who the director is (god or us) is pointless and waste of our time, Instead we should thank the director (god) for giving us this opportunity to play this role (human life) and spend our time praising him and what better way to praise him then to abide by his written script (his Hukam).

mwtI ko puqrw kYsy ncqu hY ]

How does the puppet of clay dance?

dyKY dyKY sunY bolY dauirE iPrqu hY ]1] rhwau ]

He looks and listens, hears and speaks, and runs around.

kih rivdws bwjI jgu BweI ]

Says Ravi Daas, the world is just a dramatic play, O Siblings of Destiny.

bwjIgr sau muoih pRIiq bin AweI ]3]6]

I have enshrined love for the Lord, the star of the show.

As a last note, there is a beautiful shabad written by Guru ARjan Dev Ji, which does an excellent job of tying in all these concepts and giving us a over all picture. IF taken literally, the understanding and message of the shabad may be limited, but if we simply spend a few moments to reflect over each line slowly and then at the whole shabad as a whole, hopefully we can all take away a better, and stronger understanding about this world we live in.

kwT kI puqrI khw krY bpurI iKlwvnhwro jwnY ]

What can the poor wooden puppet do? The Master Puppeteer knows everything.

jYsw ByKu krwvY bwjIgru Ehu qYso hI swju AwnY ]3]

As the Puppeteer dresses the puppet, so is the role the puppet plays.

Aink koTrI bhuqu Bwiq krIAw Awip hoAw rKvwrw ]

The Lord has created the various chambers of assorted descriptions, and He Himself protects them.

jYsy mhil rwKY qYsY rhnw ikAw iehu krY ibcwrw ]4]

As is that vessel in which the Lord places the soul, so does it dwell. What can this poor being do?

ijin ikCu kIAw soeI jwnY ijin ieh sB ibiD swjI ]

The One who created the thing, understands it; He has fashioned all of this.

khu nwnk AprMpr suAwmI kImiq Apuny kwjI ]5]5]126]

Says Nanak, the Lord and Master is Infinite; He alone understands the value of His Creation.