***cloning****

[Sinister]

"u must realise the great creator working everything, the cause of causes"

WHOA WHOA WHOA,

I didnt express any opinion on the this matter, i do u know where I stand?

loook to tell you the truth I've been running into trouble with the ADMIN, they threatened to kick me out if I voice opinion (which is serious violation of their own rules)...but "there decision is final" so I will no longer show subjectivity. thus cant formulate an opinion on-->

do u really think the unvierse, life, is all chance?

that decision is yours and i respect the choice you make.

To Kharkoo

Hey bud, umm yyeaa we are straying off topic...but cool response.

Can i trust your translations.....lol...jus kiddin.

Umm....... hmmmm How do I put this with the utmost objectivity... here goes

many people say science cannot have limits.

And scientists beleive that Religion has constraints, for example it has an end, God itself.

Scientists beleive that Science does not have limits because their science will exist for as long as humanity exists.

This draws dramatic parallels to the theory that God will only exists because humans continue to exist. thus countering your theory that science has limitations.

A scientist would turn around and say Relgion is constrained physically by time as well, its existance (as is god existance) is entirely dependant upon humanity.

"So in short just remember that man, science all have limitations. They are bound by the constraints of time for they all exist at a physical level. Thus they can never predict the future. God/spirituality are beyond these constraints. Thus the capacity of theirs is unlimited."

"The word of the Guru would be no more if man did not exist in the physical form" said the anonymous scientist

The world of science would be no more if man ceased to exist.

God and Science experience the same constraints of time.

No personal opinion on the matter.

[Kharkoo4Life]

"u must realise the great creator working everything, the cause of causes"

WHOA WHOA WHOA,

I didnt express any opinion on the this matter, i do u know where I stand?

loook to tell you the truth I've been running into trouble with the ADMIN, they threatened to kick me out if I voice opinion (which is serious violation of their own rules)...but "there decision is final" so I will no longer show subjectivity. thus cant formulate an opinion on-->

135337[/snapback]

I think u shud always voice ur opinion for that is what a discussion is based on. I do not know why they have allegedly said this to u, but if so it is not right. However, only thing i can think of is, perhaps some of ur comments were taken too seriously (as per previous threads) and they took particular offense to questions/allegations raised against guru/god? As the ol quote goes, (which im likely to mess up)

I may not agree with what you're saying but i shall defend till death you're right to say it!

Now bak to these few points u raised.

many people say science cannot have limits.

And scientists beleive that Religion has constraints, for example it has an end, God itself.

The argument fails right here according to gurbani. While yes i agree scientists say this bout religion, for a sikh his entire life is based on gurbani and every answer is obtained from it. So if u and i both consider ourselves sikh then we shud consult gurbani on this topic not a scientific journal or abstract.

In fact, everyone in this world (be it scienctists, philospher, artists etc.) all try to understand religion and each talk bout its limits. But religion is based on God, and thus a god who is beyond any limits how can a religion focused on that god have limits.

ibidAw koit sBY gun khY ]

Millions of sciences all sing His Praises. (meaning try to understand God)

qaU pwrbRhm kw AMqu n lhY ]6]

Even so, the limits of the Supreme Lord God cannot be found.

So u see to say religion is limited is a fallacy for its subject matter (god) is limitless.

AprMpro pwrbRhmu suAwmI hir AlKu gurU lKwieE ]1] rhwau ]

The Supreme Lord God, my Lord and Master, is limitless; the Guru has inspired me to know the unknowable Lord.

Scientists beleive that Science does not have limits because their science will exist for as long as humanity exists.

This reasoning is also flawed for this very statement places the limits of science on existence of humanity. And since everyone, even science admits humanity did not exist since beginnin, its only few miillion years old, then obviusly if it had a beginnin, it will also have an inevitable end. Even science is busy researchin the opposite of bigbang, sayin that eventually the reverse may happend where entire universe shrinks and collapsses on itself. So this statement actually supports that science DOES have limits.

This draws dramatic parallels to the theory that God will only exists because humans continue to exist. thus countering your theory that science has limitations. A scientist would turn around and say Relgion is constrained physically by time as well, its existance (as is god existance) is entirely dependant upon humanity.

And who says god will only exist because humans exist. God existed before humans were here ( a few million years), he existed even before the universe was created (many billion years). He still exists today and will continue to exist after this universe no longer remains as we know it today. It is our own frail human perception riddled in ego which ASSUMES that god exists only in our minds, or that he is alive only so long as we live. Gurbani outright rejects these claims. For such a gods existence is made dependant on man, and if such why would man worship something that is dependant on man itself (i.e. the reason Gurus rejected worship of physical matter in form of idols, statues, elements)

Awid AMiq miD pRBu soeI ]

God exists in the beginning, in the middle and in the end.

Now obviusly man did not exist in beginin rite? But gurbani tells us that God did. In fact he existed then, exists now, and will exist for infinity.

Awid AnIlu Anwid Anwhiq jugu jugu eyko vysu ]28]

The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same

So u see the religion of a sikh, which is God, never dies. THus it has no limits.

"The word of the Guru would be no more if man did not exist in the physical form" said the anonymous scientist

Well i would like to know who this scientist is, for the GUru himself says:

gur kw bcnu sdw AibnwsI ]

The Guru's Word is eternal and everlasting.

Atl bcnu nwnk gur qyrw sPl kru msqik DwirAw ]

Your Word is eternal, O Guru Nanak; You placed Your Hand of blessing upon my forehead

In fact if u take this to a deeper level u shall realize and hopefully one day understand, that thsi word of the guru we talk bout, is not like ordinary words u and i write, read or speak. The word of the guru is the word of God himself.

hir jIau imlY qw gurmuiK bUJY cInY sbdu AibnwsI hy ]8]

He meets with the Dear Lord, when, as Gurmukh, he understands; he remembers the Shabad, the Word of the immortal, eternal Lord God.

ijnhu bwq insçl DR¨A jwnI qyeI jIv kwl qy bcw ]

Those who realize the Eternal, Unchanging Word of God, like Dhroo, are immune to death.

That is why when "whoever" made that statment has absolutely no understanding of the Gurus word (gurbani). This word shall remain eternal, meaning not confined by any parameters of time. Our dicussions, attempts to debate, research and understand everythin in this world, about science, god are prone to having limits, but not the word of guru/god.

cwir ibnwsI Ktih ibnwsI ieik swD bcn inhclwDw ]2]

The four Vedas shall pass away, and the six Shaastras shall pass away. Only the Word of the Holy Saint is eternal.

The world of science would be no more if man ceased to exist.

One last thing to throw ur way and maybe confuse u all over again, existence of science is not dependant on man. Only our understanding of science is limited, as u say has holes in it. For instance, gravity existed for ages. Even before man. Even after man came into being he still did not know of it, yet it existed. Only in the last few hundred years has man come to LEARN and UNDERSTAND bout gravity. It doesnt mean it was invented or came into existence only few hundred years ago. The whole world of science exist right now, and did so before man so how can u say that it would stop if man became extinct. Science is not jus some forumlas or defintions printied in a textbook. It is all aspects and laws of nature. Most of whcih man has yet to understand and explore. These exist indepedent of man and his perception of them. Jus cuz man dies doesnt mean gravity will disapper, or atoms will explode, or stars will be gone. THey will all continue to be.

God and Science experience the same constraints of time.

No personal opinion on the matter.

Two final things and this time for sure! HOpe by now u can clearly see that God isbeyond all constraints, limits imposed on him either by man or science.

Secondly do not stop posting ur opinions for it forces others, including myself to better process and organize our own thoughts about this world, about our faith (sikhi) and understanding of it. All i would recommend is that before posting just be considerate to the sentiments of the sangat and their love for the guru and god.

[S1ngh]

If we can live OKAY without need of cloning of humans.. then whats the need of cloning at all ??

[humble_kaur]

I’m taking Biology right now, and what a coincidence that this topic came up tonight in class! I think the cloning of any species, be it a human or an animal is morally and ethically wrong. Cloning can cause severe physical and psychological effects. For instance, if a human were cloned, that child would have severe psychological effects.

My teacher used the example of Dolly. Before her birth, nineteen out of 277 were considered healthy, and of those nineteen, only five survived, but four of them died after ten days of birth due to abnormalities. Can you imagine if it was a human?

I guess scientists have run out of things to explore/invent. So now why not just interfere in God’s creation a little more and start cloning humans? Let’s interfere with the whole cycle of natural reproduction. Science is a great field, don’t get me wrong, it helps explain the unexplainable. But, with all experiments being conducted, they are still theories. This world was created long before scientists. Laws of nature were here long before scientists started to explore them, yet, the scientists think they know all.

A human clone would be the exact replica of the parent. Therefore, not only will they suffer severe psychological effects, but also now they will lose their identity, their sense of individuality. One will start questioning the definition of self. I know in Sikhi we are to eradicate the idea of self, but this is definitely no way to do it. God has created each human on this earth in his or her own uniqueness; even identical twins don’t look alike.

Ok, let's go one step further. What if they start to clone animals so they can be used as donors for humans. What about the diseases that we would get from such doings? I understand that animals are used to create many vaccines to cure diseases, but to start cloning them for human organs? Where would we draw the line?

Out of an article that the teacher provided there was a statement in it that a lot of people against cloning brought up: “That the clone would have no soul, no mind, no feelings or emotions of their own, no say in how their life will be with their destiny predetermined for them, and that each individual clone would not be unique.” Is this what we want? If the statement holds true, and the human clone has no soul, then how can there be life in that clone? The soul is what makes the human; it is a part of God. If humans were cloned, then scientists are trying to play “God” by creating and predetermining their destiny. This is the reason why so many people today are caught between who to believe, God or Science. Humans have a tendency to believe in what can be seen and touched physically, rather than having faith and believing in God.

Of course there is also the issue of genetically modifying foods and organisms. The benefits in plants include enhanced taste, increased nutrients, and resistance to disease, pests, and herbicides. In animals there is increased resistance, productivity, better yield of meat, eggs and milk, and overall improved animal health and diagnostic methods. The environment benefits also due to conservation of soil, water and energy, better natural waste management. The society benefits because there is increased food security for growing populations.

But there are controversies as well. There is the safety issue. Potential human health impact: allergens, transfer of antibiotic resistance markers. Potential environmental impact: unintended transfer of transgenes through cross-pollination, unknown effects on other organisms, and loss of flora and fauna biodiversity. There is also the ethics factor. It is a violation of natural organisms' intrinsic values. There is tampering with nature by mixing genes among species. There are objections to consuming animal genes in plants and vice versa. It causes stress for animals.

Some ways cloning has advantages some ways it doesn’t. But, the human mind can never rest. It is always working to prove something, regardless if it has a positive outcome or negative one.

[Sinister]

"Jus cuz man dies doesnt mean gravity will disapper, or atoms will explode, or stars will be gone. THey will all continue to be."

yea but that gets into the classical philosophical question... "If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

the existance of those stars are completely irrelevant to humanity once it perishes.

Ok I will give you a Scientific mind-set of what a scientist in todays world might beleive.....

Scientist veiw relgion as a "fad" something that will rise and fall as the course of time progresses.

Scientist also veiw religion as a "SHEILD", it sheilds us from the unknown. Once this unknown is discovered and we see there's nothing left to fear, the "sheild" will be thrown away (a new sheild might come into existance).

For the scientist Religion and that includes Sikhi, will fall victim to time. 5000 years from now when our bones have turned to dust, Sikhi will fade away as nothing more than a vague memory in history textbook (as has Zarathustrian, roman gods, carthage religion, greek mythology, pharoah, the list goes on).

"God is dead: but given the way of humanity, his shadow will remain on the walls of caves for thousands of years. And we will continue to conquer his shadow as well." (Neitzsche)

what is neitzshce trying to say? This quote is yours to discover and dismantle!

In summary,

The scientist knows that physical sciences will outlive any religion, or any word of god that these religion claim to know about.

So, do scientists veiw religion as a bad thing? of course not, it is an essential developmental process for all humans.

do they veiw current religion as a finite entity within its existence? yes,

religion will fall vicitim to time, science and the physical laws that it makes will live on in the vasteness of mans eternity.

Any veiw is ok with me, but veiwing the battle between science and religion while sitting on the sidelines sure is interesting (oops an opinion). As for adding my input, sorry but I was told not to and I have to respect the decision of the ADMIN.

cheers.

[curious_man]

better to have robots (as in i robots) than cloning humans !! :e:

** though, i do agree with cloning of organs!

and yeah.. i will be busy for a project into mass production of robots..as soon as i finish my degree!! .. so contact me and i will give u huge discounts !!

[Kharkoo4Life]

"Jus cuz man dies doesnt mean gravity will disapper, or atoms will explode, or stars will be gone. THey will all continue to be."

yea but that gets into the classical philosophical question... "If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

the existance of those stars are completely irrelevant to humanity once it perishes.

Firstly, that philosophical question if analyzed deeper makes no sense. It is flawed in its very core. The sound of a tree falling will occur, regardless if one hears it or not. For instance, if ppl lived too far from that forest, they wouldnt hear it, but if they very close to it, they would hear it. In the first case, ppl werent around but that does not change the fact that the tree still fell, caused vibratory changes resluting in altered oscillilations of soundwaves emitted by the ground, air, tree and other matter involved in that collision. Ppl simply werent around to experience it, but when they wre they heard it.

As for ur second statement, that existence of stars are completly irrelevent to humanity existence this is exactly what i said when i wrote that existence of science is not depedant on man. Furthermore, this statement of yours completely contradicts your earlier statement which read:

"Scientists beleive that Science does not have limits because their science will exist for as long as humanity exists."

So which do u agree with? That science existence is linked to existence of man, or it exists independantly of man? You make two contradicitory statements without allegience to either.

Ok I will give you a Scientific mind-set of what a scientist in todays world might beleive.....

I respect you sharing with me the "scientific mind-set" but i am well-aware of the views of science towards spirituality for i myself have spent many years in the study of advanced sciences. Science is important and essential to our surivival, however it is only ONE ASPECT of our survival. Religion on the other hand is not a separate aspect to our survival, even tho most religions are practiced with this mindset, rather IT IS THE CORE of our survival. As long as we continue to view it as an acessory, and just another PART to our life rather than the ESSENCE OF LIFE itself we will never grasp or appreciate its importance ormeaning.

This is where science fails in its assesment of religion. Science functions on the ground that everythin in this universe exists as discernable, dividable entity which can be compartmentalized into neat little separate boxes and each examined, observed and studied independantly of the other. That is how the process of controlled studies, the gold standard in scientific education, works. While this works in the world of physical sciences, it NEVER WILL WORK in the domain of spirituality. For spirituality is not something we can neatly separate into a textbook, essay or labarotory for independant study. It exists continually and intimately interwoven into every aspect of our life. That is why Sikhi as opposed to other religions is not just a sunday afternoon religion, or simple collections of scriptures to be read, memorized and sung. Rather it is a completely way of living, of lifestyle which applies in all aspects of ones life. This is how it was shown to us by the gurus, but it is our own laziness and lack of understanding that we have made into just like every other religion as an ordinary average part time spiritual tag-on to life, rather than life itself.

So one who fails to undrstand this, they will forever remained stuk in the discussion of religion vs science with no clear answer in their minds.

As for ur opinoins, if u are unable to share them, or being prevented from sharing them thru threat, then what is the point of discussion. U will be left to simply quote other people, i.e. as in this last post of urs, without contributing your own understanding and viewpoitn of the matter. That wud make ur arguments akin to reading out textbook passages void of any independant anlysis and understanding. SO i hope u do express ur views and opnions in future. It is the basis for this form, to share such. And that is what EVERY other person on this forum does, so do not know why you are being singled out,if that is the case.

[Sinister]

My comments and opinions are veiwed as "inflammatory", thus undesirable on the this forum (reply from admin).

[UntitledSingh]

Well we have all been noticing that you constantly question our religion, with a lot of criticizism(not referring to this post, although you said that the Gurus knew nothing about the future, in our religion the Gurus are considered to be prophets-messenger of God), and then you call yourself a Sikh. In this forum there are a lot of youngster who have no knowledge of the Khalsa and are interested in learning and you discourage them. Nobody is stopping you from your beliefs but why on a Sikh youth forum.

Sinister I dont hold any hate against you, but I have to say I didn't really "feel" you from your very first post.(the won where you called yourself a Sikh, then asked 20 questions criticizing everything)

[UntitledSingh]

Sinsiter bro maybe I am wrong about you, but it seems to me when you question and critize and want more knowldege on the topic, you dont want anything, you reject eveyones views and seem to have "known it all" since the begennnig.

sahas si-aanpaa lakh hohi ta ik na chalai naal.

Mortal may posses thousands of clever thoughts and biggest wisdom, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

But the greatest knowledge of all is TRUTH = GOD(Sat Nam)

and "to know God is to love God"

Sinister please follow my advice(actually the Gurus advice) for just one second, forget everything you know, forget every philosopher you ever heard off, forget this world and everything in it, go beyond the limits of the Universe, and think for just one second of ...... GOD