Sant Baba Thakur Singh Ji

[Trust1]

Please can you share with us the "strong data". I am very intrigued by these claims.

nope sorry bhaji, havent got the foggiest!! :lol: @

maybe my family were wrong, like i said, i was only young so i dont really know what they found. but i trust my family enough to believe them. maybe that makes me even more stooopid. i dunno, i apologise if these claims are false.

bhul chuk maaf karo ji

[ssinghuk]

There's no point in discussing it again. Heres the link to the previous discussion just a few weeks ago -

if we look at ithaas..there were many chardi kala gursikhs who weren't married and many that were...

guru sahib didn't say you are nOT allowed to NOT get married...

These have already been mentioned, and it turns out most of these were indeed married, although the wife's name might not have been written in the pages of our hitory, doens't mean they didn't exist

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=16643&hl=

Most claims posted pro celibacy have been responded to in the above thread:

Celibacy is a personal choice but not a pro-Gurmat principle and cannot be justified on the basis of Gurbani. All of the Gurus (except 8th Nanak – because of age) were married while they were head of the Sikh Panth. Celibacy is not a requirement for jathedari of Taksal. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji did not change his way of life after becoming the jathedar. Sikhi does not require anyone to adopt celibacy.

Just like to mention that theres loads of quotes telling Gurmukhs to live Gristi Jeevan, I have yet to encounter one SINGLE quote, acknowleding Celibacy beign accepted.

Namastang, although I agree it's wrong to make black and white out of controversial issues such as abortion, and other moral and ethical issues as Guru Sahib had a reason not mentiong these (considering he mentioned Kuri-mars, he could easily have mentioned banning abortion methods (not ultra sound technics, but technics used at the time), which they did not do) as he left some grey area for these, however Guru Sahib has showed, through their own jeevan as well as through Gurbani, Through Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaara etc, that a Gurmukh is designed for Grist Jeevan, there is absolutely nothing in Guru Sahibaans jeevan, or Gurbani, or Vaara etc, that acknowledge celibacy in a Gursikh's Life. A Gurmukh is designed for Grist Jeevan, and that Guru Sahib showed through his own jeevan, and Gurbani, by PRactising what he preached. If someone decides to practise celibacy, the does not mean it's a pro-gurmat principle.

it IS WRONG if we are running away from marriage because we feel we can't be spritiaul..that is wrong..and guru sahib spoke out against it...

BUT if someone just doesnt' feel like getting married..there is NOTHING wrong with that...

Nor does it make it a pro-gurmat concept. The Concept is that a Sikh Should live a life of a householder, if he decides not to, it's entirely up to him, but that person cannot claim that he's following the teachings of Gurus to the point.

GrbwrI gur isK hoie isKw sUqR ml mUqR ivfwxY]

gharabaaree gur sikh hoe sikhaa soothr mal moothr viddaanai||

The Sikh being householder abnegates tonsure, the sacred thread (Janeu), etc. and forsakes them like abominable faeces.

This is a clear instruction by Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji, that a Sikh does and should indeed get married.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5680

Guru Sahib didn't just say that marriage didn't hinder spirituality but also made the Sikh a "gharbaree", or householder..

crx srx ilvlIx hoie sYNswrI inrMkwrI Bwey]

charan saran livaleen hoe sai(n)asaaree nira(n)kaaree bhaaeae||

Even a worldly person here, concentrating upon the feet of Guru, becomes dear to God, the formless One.

GrbwrI hoie inj Gr jwey ]ù]

gharabaaree hoe nij ghar jaaeae ||a||

Becoming householder, man resides in his innate nature (atman).

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...=&ShabadID=5905

Those who have already made up their opinion, will not care less what Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji Says, and will begin jsutfying other people's actions. Bhai Gurdas Ji's words are clear. Gurbani is clear. If one still has issues, it'äs because they have made up their mind and won't change it no matter what.

This has been discussed many time on this forum already.

Bhull chukk maaf

152448[/snapback]

Again, the same as the other thread, Bhai Gurdaas Jee was celibate, can someone "prove" that he wasnt?

[SSM]

Now, lets breathe so Lion King do me a favour- breathe and then post in future.

I dont have time for ur long posts if they are mainly to track how and when I post.

But moving on to reply as politely as ur post will allow me to.

if I had found anything in any of your posts that suggests that a unmarried man cannot be accepted as a Gursikh then I would have ended my posts on this thread by saying I agree with Lion King. BUT can I ask you to re-read your posts which dont prove anything but that it is great to be married and sikh or yeh it is allowed.

Lets get one more thing clear- whats this about us making our minds up- why can u not accept that u have made ur mind up and wont change. And STOP JUDGING PPL, as sikhs we DO care what Bhai Gurdas Ji have written.

From where is it evident that SSM has come to add own view and not to learn- do u think I managed to type a few posts by not even reading the starting post at the very least? This is turning into a childish fight now but felt the need to reply to ur silly pointless points.

Now sorry for sounding harsh ji but I did read ur posts and I was saying that the qoutes u prvide are beautiful but they do not back up what is being discussed.

Now let me just copy and paste one line from u which is what I have been tryign to say but u so nicely said and for which i thank u from the bottom of my heart:

Lion King says:

'''''I have not only provided link to Shahab, but even quoted it for you :lol:

Although it doesn't say that "unmarried people aren't accepted",

but the quotes by Bhai Gurdas Ji are clear that a Sikhs jeevan is designed to fit in the grist jeevan concept :)''''''

And finally, u r the one that has held on to his opnion so stop trying to stop others from copying u and please read my posts again in future so that u do nt make the mistake of mis reading- i said i skimmed the thread link not this thread yet u been shouting and screaming about something i didnt even do.

And please, bhul chuk maaf karni.

I asked for Gurbani quotes and havent got any.

I skimmed the thread link and didn't find a quote where Guru Ji say no to unmarried ppl so whats with u saying that Gurbani is clear on the issue- I'm so happy that Gurbani is clear on the issue we are discussing but how about u just direct us on the panna at the very least.

152596[/snapback]

Please read the thread, and not skim in future.

Please re-read my previous post.

I have not only provided link to Shahab, but even quoted it for you :cool:

Although it doesn't say that "unmarried people aren't accepted",

but the quotes by Bhai Gurdas Ji are clear that a Sikhs jeevan is designed to fit in the grist jeevan concept :cool:

GrbwrI gur isK hoie isKw sUqR ml mUqR ivfwxY]

gharabaaree gur sikh hoe sikhaa soothr mal moothr viddaanai||

The Sikh being householder abnegates tonsure, the sacred thread (Janeu), etc. and forsakes them like abominable faeces.

Bhai Gurdas Ji describes the Sikh as "GharBari", i.e householder.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5680

Guru Sahib didn't just say that marriage didn't hinder spirituality but also made the Sikh a "gharbaree", or householder..

crx srx ilvlIx hoie sYNswrI inrMkwrI Bwey]

charan saran livaleen hoe sai(n)asaaree nira(n)kaaree bhaaeae||

Even a worldly person here, concentrating upon the feet of Guru, becomes dear to God, the formless One.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...=&ShabadID=5905

Those who have already made up their opinion, will not care less what Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji Says, and will begin jsutfying other people's actions. Bhai Gurdas Ji's words are clear. Gurbani is clear. If one still has issues, it'äs because they have made up their mind and won't change it no matter what.

It is evident SSM jeeyo, that you have not come to read, but only to post you're opinion.

Just after my post with the abvoe quotes, you posted your view..

Two posts later you ask me where I have quoted - seems like you didn't read my post to begin with

Are you only here to share your determined opinion, or to learn what Gurbani saying

Whereas we can see from our ithehas, that a Sikh should NOT leave his family to do seva, as seen with Gurmukh Pyaarey liek Baba Buddha Jee, Baba Deep Singh Ji, (I think! =>) Gyani Kartar Singh ji Bhindrawale etc.

It's evident that all Gurmuhsk in history have been married.

Let'd devout time on reading Gurbani, and seeing waht Gurbani has to say on the issue, instead of holding on to our opinion. People have obviously been skipping over the Gurbani quotes, and later on questioned: "WHERE HAVE YOU PROVIDED QUOTES????, SHOW MEE!!!"

If you had followed the thread to begin with, and read what others have to say instead of only throwing out your own opinion you would see.

Bhull chukk maaf

GrbwrI hoie inj Gr jwey ]ù]

gharabaaree hoe nij ghar jaaeae ||a||

Becoming householder, man resides in his innate nature (atman).

152692[/snapback]

[Lion(LK)King]

1 - Considering Bhai Gurdas Ji says that a Sikh is designed for Gristi Jeevan, I very much doubt he was not married.

2- SSM veer jeyo/bhen jeyo you asked me to rpovide Gurbani, even after reading my post? contradictory.

3 - SSM veer jeyo/bhenji, you quote me out of context.

Just like Gurbani says do Naam Japna... nowhere does it tell you: "You may not not do naam Japna"

(please not the double negatives :lol: )

If Gurbani mentions, that a Sikh is desgined for grist Jeevan, than that is simply fair enough for me.

It is, IMHO silly to ask Guru ji to write:

"THERE IS NO WAY YOU CANNOT STAY CELIBATE!!!!"

Guru ji, has told us to live a Grist jeevan. For me that is enough. If someone wants to stay celibate, it is their choice, but it cannot be argued that is has ANYTHING to do with Gurmat, nor can it be argued that it's a concept acknowledged in Gurmat, since there is not a SINGLE PANGTI, in Gurbani even acknowleding celibacy, however there areloads to support grist jeevan. Two of them have been provided above. It is now your choice whether you decide to follow Gurbani, or not.

I will base my argument on Gurbani. If you can do that too, i.e. proving a point using Gurbani (i.e. Guru's mat) that would be really nice...

Not tha I'm expecting any quotes from Gurbani from anyone pro-celibacy, sicne no-one has ever been able to do so, so far.

Let Guru ji decide and make decisions.

Guru Ji acknowledges Grist Jeevan, and tells us that a Sikh is designed for Grist jeevan. Please, show us where Gurbani acknowledges otherwise :cool:

bhull chukk maaaf.

[H4RINDER]

Whereas we can see from our ithehas, that a Sikh should NOT leave his family to do seva, as seen with Gurmukh Pyaarey liek Baba Buddha Jee, Baba Deep Singh Ji, (I think! =>) Gyani Kartar Singh ji Bhindrawale etc.

Lion King, just to to let you know,

Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindrwale were married, had 2 children then as they became Jathedar of Damdami Taksal, they LEFT their wife and kids to DO SEVA!

Further more they saw thier ex wife and kids as SANGAT and nothing else...

Just out of Curiosity, we all agree Sant Jarnail Singh Ji was of high awastha, and make no doubt about it they sure were........

.......But doesnt this lead to the ultimate question....

WERE SANT JI WRONG IN MARRYING AND LEAVING THIER FAMILY?

Becuase according to Lion King " a Sikh should NOT leave his family to do seva"

I guess the answers are pretty much obvious as to who is right and wrong?

????? Lion King, plz think carefully before you post?????

[H4RINDER]

Hum Nahi Chunge Bura Nahi Koi

[Lion(LK)King]

I have already posted by opinion. As a matter of fact, I have no opinion. Gurbani hi Gurbani :lol:

Paro, Labh lo, ya ignore karo - tuhadi marji :cool:

I have done my best by quoting Gurbani. If Gurbani doesn't seem sweet to you and hurts you or our opinion then that is your problem. Deal with it.

kbIr KUbu Kwnw KIcrI jw mih AMimRqu lonu ]

hyrw rotI kwrny glw ktwvY kaunu ]188]

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mehi a(n)mrith lon ||

haeraa rottee kaaranae galaa kattaavai koun ||188||

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=5156&Format=2

Bhagat Kabeer ji tells us to eat simple. Nowhere does he sa: "hey! You can't eat heavy food as aspiritual person!!.. Hallo!!! Listen - you can't be spiritual and eat a lot of heavy food"

In the same way, if Guru Shaib tells us to live a Grist jeevan, there is no need for him to condemn a celibate, since he's already gone against a life of celibacy, when telling us to get maried.

There's not point in quoting Gurbani anymore, sinse you have already made up your mind, and no matter how much Gurbani tells us to live a grst jeevan, we will have to make a choice, are we goign to make an excuse on "Gurbani doesn't say its wrong not to get married" or are we actually going to practise it?

Are we going to eat light, and simple food or are we going to say "Just because Gurbani tells us to eat light food doesn't mean we can't eat heavy food if we want to"

It's just bahane-baji.

Gurbani is clearly telling us to live a life of a Grist jeevan, there is absolutely no need to clearly emphasize that it is wrong to stay unmarried, since they've already showed that in their own jeevan, and the jeevan of their close associates (Baba Buddha Ji, Baba Deep Singh Ji etc). There is not a singl evidence anywhere in Gurbani acknowledging celibac, or not living grist Jeevan.

This will be my last post in this thread, since no-one has been able to post anything from Gurbani. When someone bothers to refer to Gurabni, and ask Guru Ji the answer to questions, I will come back, but until we as Sikhs don't start asking our Guru about our issues, there is no point, and it's bound to end up as a fruitless debate, without any faida or labh, if we do not consult our Guru.

Please consult your Guru. If you can consult with Guru JI, and you can uote Gurbani, then there is a healthy discussion, but if you will not even care about Gurbani says (which you claim you do, but have practicle ignore Gurbani, and havn't been able to back up a single sentance with Gurbani)

gur ibnu Goru AMDwru gurU ibnu smJ n AwvY ]

gur bin ghor a(n)dhhaar guroo bin samajh n aavai ||

Without the Guru, there is utter darkness; without the Guru, understanding does not come

gur ibnu suriq n isiD gurU ibnu mukiq n pwvY ]

gur bin surath n sidhh guroo bin mukath n paavai ||

Without the Guru, there is no intuitive awareness or success; without the Guru, there is no liberation.

guru kru scu bIcwru gurU kru ry mn myry ]

gur kar sach beechaar guroo kar rae man maerae ||

So make Him your Guru, and contemplate the Truth; make Him your Guru, O my mind.

guru kru sbd spuMn AGn ktih sB qyry ]

gur kar sabadh sapu(n)n aghan kattehi sabh thaerae ||

Make Him your Guru, who is embellished and exalted in the Word of the Shabad; all your sins shall be washed away.

guru nXix bXix guru guru krhu gurU siq kiv nl´ kih ]

gur nayan bayan gur gur karahu guroo sath kav naly kehi ||

So speaks NALL the poet: with your eyes, make Him your Guru; with the words you speak, make Him your Guru, your True Guru.

ijin gurU n dyiKAau nhu kIAau qy AkXQ sMswr mih ]4]8]

jin guroo n dhaekhiao nahu keeao thae akayathh sa(n)saar mehi ||4||8||

Those who have not seen the Guru, who have not made Him their Guru, are useless in this world. ||4||8||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5414

Unless you consult and quote Guru Ji, where he acknowledges celibacy, there is no point in discussing this anymroe :cool:

Bhull chukk maaf

[SSM]

i agree u done ur best but qutoing bani that doesnt prove ur point is hardly something to boast abt:)

no where in Gurbani does Guru Ji suggest that unmarried ppl cannot be Gurmukhs- that is my point. Guru Ji encourage us to get married but its not like er u must or else......get it?

Now please dont think the very chardikala Singhs who were not married or who moved away from married life were any less Sikh. They were not running away from their duties- they did not seem to be thinking that married life will get in the way of mukti lol- their reason to mopve away from married life seems very different frm the sannyasin type which i think is what Guru Ji seem to be against.

ANd please read my above reply again, i repeated what U said which was that Gurbani does not clearly state that an unmarrried person cannot be Gurmukh and I leave it at that. we seem to be playing tennis here with the same ball being thrown over again and again. :lol:

[munjoth]

in guru nanaks house there are two margs: grist and celibacy...how do we knw this? ONE of guru nanaks children were married and ONE wasnt.

Also why did guru gobind singh maharaj tell banda bahadur not to get married? But he went again guru jis and did so...we all knw what happened there...

[kurtas]

in guru nanaks house there are two margs: grist and celibacy...how do we knw this? ONE of guru nanaks children were married and ONE wasnt.

Also why did guru gobind singh maharaj tell banda bahadur not to get married? But he went again guru jis and did so...we all knw what happened there...

152941[/snapback]

So what does that prove about the house of Guru Nanak Dev Ji ?

Please can you provide an authentic source for the Saheed Baba Banda Bahadur Ji story. It is one of them old wives tales as far as I am concerned. There is no evidence that Guru Ji placed such a restriction on Baba Ji. The fact that the house of Shaheed Baba Banda Bahadur Ji still exists to this day further dents that story.

It is like the other old wives tale about Guru Ji waiting for his Gursikh to visit Hazur Sahib before they are XX years old. Then you get the other old wives tale about the scion of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh Ji not surviving because he got the Guru Ghar at Hazur Sahib built. The two stories contradict each other and are absolute rubbish.