Sikhitothemax.com Updates?

[Khalsa4ever]

Waheguroo jee ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo jee kee Fateh!

Why is it so difficult to find a DIRECT translation?? It seems that every translation isn't a translation, but some huge explination based on someone's opinion.

Let's stick with translations first, then worry about explaining later... I think I posted something like this on my blog too: http://khalsa4ever.blogspot.com/2006/04/op...ce-gurbani.html . I think It might be time to set up an open source type of system to come up with the best, most accurate translations. Any ideas on how to get started?

Waheguroo jee ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo jee kee Fateh!

[Jkaur]

There are 2 more versions of translations available worldwide for screening in Gurdwaras.

Although sangat in Uk use only 'Sikhi to the max' software, in Asia region, we use 2 other versions.

In fact, I've never seen any Gurdwara using 'Sikhi to the max' version in this region.

One of the other version is created by a Singaporean , Harminder Pal Singh.

This is the version that is widely used in Asia and accepted by the majority of the sangat.

The other version is created by someone in Malaysia/Australia.

This version has shabads referring to "santan" and "saadh jan" in Gurbani, re-translated as "The Guru." This version is widely supported by the Malaysian Sabha because it is their 'dridh' belief that there is NO SUCH THING as a Sant.

To each his own.!!!

Just to let u know.. the software which was created by Harminderpal Singh is the software that was just copied and upgraded by the person in Malaysia... :lol:

[N30S1NGH]

Sangat jeeo, this is wrong. I was very very upset to read some of the new 'translations' like "Hum Santan Kee Rayn Pyare" was translated as something like "I am the dust of the Guru's Feet" - seriously it's wrong for us to completely CHANGE what Bani is saying.

Even if somebody believes that there is no such thing as "Sant", it is still absolute beadbi (in my humble moorakh eyes) to mis-translate and possibly mislead youth and others reading Sikhi to the Max (Simply put, Sant = Saint, Guru = Guru). Sikhi to the Max is used by SO many people, especially youth, and the sevadaars should not change such Arth especially if it is not correct.

Please sttm sevadaar jees do not let your personal feelings influence the Bani Arth, please.

Either way I believe that the sevadaars changed that one particular shabad back to the old translation, which I was really thankful for. My apologies if someone thinks I'm making a big deal out of this, but it hurt me a lot to see Bani being translated in a wrong way, this can't pass... It is different if you have several sianay Gursikhs that have thoroughly studied Gurbani for years (through Santhiya for example) breaking down the English translations for certain Shabads, but it seems inappropriate for us to take this roll on ourselves

my heartfelt apologies if i said anything hurtful

great post veer ji,

these people whoever did it, reminded me of ram raie's of the panth...delibaretely changing meaning of gurbani in english translations to fullfill an aim so that people not follow sants,,,, oh morkho, sant is jaat rab di jaat hai, stop acting or playing God.

Sant Mahapursh are like magnets, whoever meant to come to them by blessing of akaal purkh and have spiritual discourse from gurbani, will come regardless of your stupid lame attempts ... whatever mean to happen will happen, you cannot hide guru nanak dev sikhi parkash from this world, truth will shine through just like amrit dhara shines through when this jiv gets darshan of akaal purkh.

your stupid lame attempts cannot will not stop sants coming into this world nor it will stop their parkash which they got by guru sahib kirpa for people to feel it.

Sikhi does not revolve around Sikhitothemax translations, Sikhi is about expereincing paratama, which none of you self proclaimed stupid scholars can provide the sangat who have nerves changing the gurbani arth for your own hide agendas.

[Guest A Singh.]

Perhaps the Sangat should read the thread on Tapoban Message board regarding this issue.

The new translation had over 16,000 updates and rather than checking through the entire thing, the Sevadars used some sort of automated system to update the old translation.

The Sevadars have already mentioned that upon reading people's concerns and and checking the new translations, they do not agree with them and have changed them back. They are working on re implementing them with some sort of reporting system for what I can gather so the entire translation can be continuously improved.

I am using very sceptical at attempts for "E-Parchar" or propagation of Sikhi done by computer or electronic medium. However I would say Sikhitothemax is one of the few projects which I believe to have had a massive impact especially on youth as people who previously would not understand what Gurbani was talking about during Keertan Diwans or Akhand Paaths now have the opportunity to. Rather than supporting the Sevadars or offering to help, all I can see is people attempting to bring down the Sevadars at any possible opportunity with language like "bullcr*p", "over paranoid, insecure", "same as a pimp who uses prostitutes to fullfill their own gratifications" and "stupid lame attempts".

Veers and Bhains, Sikhi is about Pyaar yet clearly at the smallest and most insignificant situation we have no problem in spewing foul language and hatred for people who I believe have done an amazing Seva. On the Tapoban Message board thread, the Sevadar, Bhai Tarsem Singh, has asked for help in implementing translations and is looking for people to help with Seva. Perhaps some of the Sangat here who appear to have enough free time here to rant and attack other people's attempts to do Parchar, should help and use their time constructively rather than to bring down other people's work.

[Bundha]

I think all we are doing here is voicing our concerns about interpretation rather then translation.

It is no secret that people like AKJ (who I have the utmost respect for) are very anti-mahapursh and here is another attempt at wiping the whole concept of ‘sant’ from Sikhi, BUT this is wholly corrupting gurbani which cannot be acceptable.

What happens for instance to the whole astpathi in Sukhmani Sahib about “sant ki nindhia” or the whole a astpathi about “sandh kay sang” OR what about the astpathi about SANT KA DHOKHI? Is this to be translated as GURU’s dokhi, who can ever be GURU’s dokhi? And how can Guru ever feel dukh?

These concerns have obviously reached the Max people and now they know how the sangat feels. We have a legitimate right to voice our concerns. It seems unbelievable that by taking out the word ‘saint’ for ‘sant’ and replacing it with ‘Guru’ or ‘devotee’ the sevadhars did not realise that this would cause an uproar , did they not foresee this ? Or maybe they were pressurised by certain people/organizations to do this

[Guest A Singh.]

Perhaps you should consider reading the Tapoban discussion on it.

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=85016&t=85016

Author: Tarsem Singh

Date: 05-17-06 14:48

Ok everybody take a chill pill (do simran in Sikhi terms).

The translation was put back to the original about 8 and a half hours ago. The issue tracking framework will be introduced in the next couple of days so that we can run through each change one by one.

There are many good aspects of the new translation which obviously we have all become so narrow minded to because of one area we did not like.

I say this honestly, I did not notice that this interpretation that was mentioned in this thread and would not have uploaded it had I known.

It only affects a few pangthees of 16,000 updates. Work it out yourselves Singho. What about things like this in the current translation for "Dharm, Arth, Kaam and Mokh"

"He does not hesitate to bless me with Dharmic faith, wealth, sexual success and liberation. ||2|| "

this had been corrected to

"He does not hesitate to bless me with Virtue, Prosperity, Fulfilment and Salvation. ||2|| "

a much better translation. I admit it could be improved further, but the point was it highlighted an area for review. And there are many further examples of this.

So let's be patient and try again. Can't wait to get my head bitten off again hee heee!

Thanks for all your responses.

[Lionchild]

These concerns have obviously reached the Max people and now they know how the sangat feels. We have a legitimate right to voice our concerns. It seems unbelievable that by taking out the word 'saint' for 'sant' and replacing it with 'Guru' or 'devotee' the sevadhars did not realise that this would cause an uproar , did they not foresee this ? Or maybe they were pressurised by certain people/organizations to do this

Well i am actually quite dissapointed with some of the users on this forum... the Max people have dedicated alot of their time and resources to make this wonderful service available to people. and yet here we are.. trying to find every fault with the gursikhs work. such a same... a really shame...

[ParnaamShaheedaNu]

A. Singh bhaji, I agree with what you are saying for the most part, but when you said "rather than checking through the entire thing, the Sevadars used some sort of automated system to update the old translation."

THAT is the problem itself. This can't be done with Guru's Bani! That's the reason why some people are really upset. How can you just use an automated system to randomly distort bani translations? Even though sevadaars maybe did not have an ill intention, it's still foolish or immature behaviour to do that without thinking.

You also said "Sikhitothemax is one of the few projects which I believe to have had a massive impact especially on youth " - jee that is the exact problem/concern. I know that the STTM Seva probably took a lot of time or originally took loads of hardwork, but I think that Sikhi to the max should NOT be updated or changed unless the people doing it are well-learned in Gurbani vidya, it simply doesn't make sense otherwise to use our own buddi. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't feel right. Even if the example Tarsem Singh gave seems more appropriate in our eyes, it just confuses me as to who is allowed to interpret and translate Bani that will be shown to the whole world - in older times only certain Singhs had that seva because they had directly learned from Guru Sahib or they had the knowledge passed down to them. It's not right to change such things ourselves. Even if that specific example is 'better' (although it doesn't seem like a Gyani ji or learned-santhiya teacher, for example, interpreted it), what about all of the other galteeya?

I am sorry if i said anything wrong and I definitely don't mean any hurt towards the sevadaars at all, I just think all issues relating to Gurbani should be dealt with seriously

bhul chuk maaf

:lol: @

[Guest A Singh.]

Veer Ji,

If you were to read the discussion you would see that Bhai Tarsem Singh has said that he requires some Sevadars to help with the translations. Since you are so keen on this issue, I am sure that you will be contacting him via the email address he has provided on the Tapoban discussion and will play a major role in this Seva.

Many people do not seem to understand Gurbani translations are extremely subjective and there is certainly no consensus translation on what is right and wrong. Some people do not even believe there is a Gurbani Grammar System, so can you imagine how difficult it is to come to a consensus agreement? Whilst I do not agree with all the new translations that were uploaded, it certainly is possible to argue many translations quite convincingly either way (as it is for many controversial issues today).

I personally see no issue with the Sevadars having updated the translation if they received it from what they believed to be a reliable source. They have realised their mistake and corrected it. I can imagine sevadars are limited in their time and resources, primarily because we have plenty of people ready to complain on message boards and talk about the massive Beadbi of Gurbani that is being done, but will not bother to put in any substantial amount of their own time to help.

[ParnaamShaheedaNu]

Wow, dear bhajee I'm sorry if my post upset you or something. It sounds that way. I'm not complaining pyare jee I am just addressing something that went wrong.

I would love to help Tarsem Singh but I'm not a Gyani Ji and haven't had enough Gurbani Santhiya or vidya. I don't know about who else he is asking but maybe he should find people in real life (i.e. from Gurdwaras or certain Committees/Organizations) who are well-reputed to understand or "know" Gurbani, having been taught Santhiya or Vidya of Gurbani. Asking people on one particular forum may not be the best option and may again result in Bani being translated in an ill-mannered fashion.

If I helped him by putting in my own Matt, it would be the same as what he is doing or as the other sevadars have done, by using what they feel is right rather than consulting other people that have studied Gurbani for years and years. I am no different from those sevadaars infact I am much lower, but I still think everyone is entitled to defend Gurbani, and I think everyone is still entitled to say that such a big project (STTM) should be dealt with carefully. There are many people in the Panth that have studied Gurbani for years, maybe we should help him contact some of those people (ie. Gyani Takhur Singh).

bhul chuk maaf :lol: