Kirpan And Aeroplane

[MAX]

If a Hindu pandit came to a gurdwara and bowed down in from of Sri Guru Grant Sahib, id think he's a phony pandit by bowing down to teachings he doesnt believe in, i would have a lot more respect for a Hindu pandit who refused to. If a Sikh did not believe in Hindu rituals (ringing of bells), but performed the rituals anyway, he would also become a phony in my eyes. Why must a person from a different faith take part in the rituals and prayers of another faith to show respect?

There is no "must". But, "in my eyes", it is respectful. Everytime I go to a Sikkh wedding, there are always white family friends who pay there respects. It's just an action; it might not mean anything to you, but it is an immense sign of respect and humility to your friends who will actually respect your tolerance in return.

I know what my beliefs are. Ringing a bell in a mandir isn't going to change that.

Any ritual from any religion is essentially meaningless, anyway (yes, yes, that includes Sikkhi...) but what counts is understanding what it is that you are doing and what it means. It is possible to engage in the rituals of other peoples' religions but not invested in them. Or...you can invest in them believing that your thoughts and prayers are going to the same God, no matter what name you call him by, how one designs their place of worship, or which words of prayer they utter.

Arrogance? Have Sikhs ever told non Sikhs to change their look when entering a gurdwara? All we ask of them is to cover their head and be free from all intoxicants, but ur talking about Khalses adandoning their identities, their saroop that is never meant to be comprimised, would a Sikh ever tell a Brahmin to take off his Jenuo, or remove his tilak? Who are the arrogant ones here, the Sikhs or the ones who wouldnt let the Sikhs enter?

Whenever my family attends a Hindu function, my dad goes in wearing his turban.

He doesn't even have to be intoxicant free or change his headwear

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji recommended that those five (it was five, by the way, not two...my bad ) Sikkhs 'dress down' as it were, it was because the Hindus of that temple were rather intimidated by them.

True, but i had a hard time believing that a Sikh was defending Frances' system by trying to make sense of their policy.

You think it was only Sikkhs who were affected by France's constitutional ammendments? Look beyond your own struggle.

U dont know me or what i do or dont do to educate others about Sikhi, so making assumptions. The 5 k's are all for practical use, they're not symbols, the kirpaan is one of the five k's, now u decide, is it a symbol that can be put aside if it may offend a few people or a part of a Sikhs body that he or she cannot live without? And if we educated westerners about Sikhi the way u think we should, they'd think we're sword carrying posers that perform rituals of another faith and actively take part in their form of worship to show respect.

Wow.

You're taking apples and pears, sticking them in one basket, and calling them the same thing.

This type of misrepresentation is known as a strawman argument, and I am not impressed.

You're implying that I think Sikkhs are "sword carrying posers that perform rituals of another faith and actively take part in their form of worship to show respect"? Have you listened to a word I've said?

Apparently not.

Again, i believe that most of u had convincing arguments, and i agree with most of them, but max, u sound a bit wishy washy to me with ur strange sakhis and ur ringing of bells.

I don't go out of my way to ring bells, my friend. But hey, if you're so insecure about your beliefs that you think something as trivial as ringing a bell has now sealed your fate behind the gates of Hell, don't let me stop you. I just think you sound a little but too fascist. Not like a true Sikkh who understands what Sikkhi actually means.

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

""""but you YOU are a sikh/muslijm/hindu... metaphorically speaking... """"""

A Sikh is a Sikh is a Sikh. Nothing else.

i go and help my grandmom (not related) in her church, even though she doesnt go to mine.. i do not view other peopels faiths as below mine

All the energy you spend a grandma you should spend at the Gurdwara then maybe 5% of the time you spend at the Gurdwara you could spend at anothers

The hindu pundit thing I completely agree with. I would have more respect to a pundit who didnt bow to teachings he didnt follow. So why would I go to a church "mass" whatever you want to call the gathering and take part of something I dont believe at all.---Do you wear your turban while doing this?--- Or do you remove it to please your grandma and feel like people of the congregation would look at you dumb?

""""""Have Sikhs ever told non Sikhs to change their look when entering a gurdwara?""""""

Yes we do. we ask them to cover their head and remove their shoes. If we didnt ask them to change we wouldnt ask to cover the head. Back in the day covering the head meant putting a turban on. Nowdays people dont buy them for themselves and only wear 1% of a turban{bandana} provided by the management so people could enter and not be left outside due to having no bandanas.

What does a goldfish have to do with anything but Elmos goldfish "Dorethy"?

Sikhs respect others religions but we dont take part of them. We take part of their activities/fundraisers but not the church part of it.We dont think we are better we know how to acheive salvation through Sikhi and dont need anyother way unless you convert to them and then you are an apostate of Sikhi.

[japmans]

this is VERY compelling

I might be th eonly one who's understanding what MAX is trynig to say hhaha...and to an extent i agree...but that being said i also agree with almost eerything Narinder Singh's saying..

i think the point is that....your beliefs shape reality...reality doesn't shape your beliefs.... so that's why everyone doesn't believe the same thing and have the same ways, because "beliefs" aren't dependant on "reality".

Narinder Singh Ji, here's the part I find a bit inconsistent in your arguement: Why should we ask the pundit to cover his head or come intoxicant free? isn't that asking him to conform to the methods and standards that we as Sikhs follow? why should he cover his head out of respect, if he believes that he's being equally respectful by lettin his hair down...wouldn't covering his hair, then, also be a phony act?

Personally, I haven't stepped foot inside a mandir, i don't think i will, i have no internal reason to. But MAX also does make a very valid point. Some will view it as a lack of rehit in him and i can see that point as well, but essentially, it comes down to your security and faith in yourself and in your strength (for the most part....because I also prescribe to the ideology that if you've got a method, stick to that method and be all you can be.. i.e "hindu pakka hindu bannay, sikh pakka sikh bannay" -- Sant Jarnail Singh)

AND: let's not be TOOO distorted...although Hindus do believe in multimillion numbers of gods...they ALSO believe that it all leads back to ONE god... don't ask me how or why that owrks, i'm jus tellin you what i've bene told from multiple hindu friends.

we preach tolerance, maybe because we expect to recieve and give it. Agree or Disagree?

[MAX]

A Sikh is a Sikh is a Sikh. Nothing else.

A Sikkh is a human being.

Nothing else.

All the energy you spend a grandma you should spend at the Gurdwara then maybe 5% of the time you spend at the Gurdwara you could spend at anothers

Dude, she's helping her Grandma. Where is the evil in that?

The hindu pundit thing I completely agree with. I would have more respect to a pundit who didnt bow to teachings he didnt follow. So why would I go to a church "mass" whatever you want to call the gathering and take part of something I dont believe at all.---Do you wear your turban while doing this?--- Or do you remove it to please your grandma and feel like people of the congregation would look at you dumb?

Oh, believe me, one has the option not to follow rituals. You just go in and sit down, and no-one will care. But to make an effort to show respect is a noble thing to do.

What does a goldfish have to do with anything but Elmos goldfish "Dorethy"?

Sikhs respect others religions but we dont take part of them. We take part of their activities/fundraisers but not the church part of it.We dont think we are better we know how to acheive salvation through Sikhi and dont need anyother way unless you convert to them and then you are an apostate of Sikhi.

"Salvation through Sikkhi"?

Try salvation through humanity :TH:

[MAX]

i think the point is that....your beliefs shape reality...reality doesn't shape your beliefs.... so that's why everyone doesn't believe the same thing and have the same ways, because "beliefs" aren't dependant on "reality".

There is wisdom in your words. What you have said here is something that I would hope everyone - regardless of their existing socio-political/religious views - will read and medidate on with an open and free mind.

AND: let's not be TOOO distorted...although Hindus do believe in multimillion numbers of gods...they ALSO believe that it all leads back to ONE god... don't ask me how or why that owrks, i'm jus tellin you what i've bene told from multiple hindu friends.

Guru Gobind Singh talks of the entities of Indian history (legendary kings, warriors, princesses, etc) who fell in love with themselves and forgot God. As such, they spent their lives in a state of spiritual suffering. They were not 'gods', although they believed themselves to be so. Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself said that he was not a 'god', nor was he to be worshipped as such. He was a tool of God, made a public display of humility when taking Amrit from the Five Beloved, and ensured that "Waheguru-ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru-ji ki fateh" ("both the Khalsa and the victory belong only to Waheguru") remained on the lips of the people he had left behind.

When their stories are retold in Hindu mythology, the metaphorical morals of their journeys are sometimes lost, but the underlying truth - as with all religions - remains unchanged...even if you have to sift through some of the garbage that has accumulated over centuries in order to see it.

----

"In him are woven the sky and the earth and all the regions of the air, and in him rest the mind and all the powers of life. Know him as the ONE and leave aside all other words. He is the bridge of immortality.

Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is reason, its essence. Beyond reason is the Spirit in man, and beyond this is the Spirit of the Universe, the evolver of all.

When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme.

And when he is seen in his immanence and transcendence, then the ties that have bound the heart are unloosened, the doubts of the mind vanish, and the law of Karma works no more."

~ Extracts from the Upanishads ~

----

Guru Gobind Singh Ji translated a number of Hindu scriptures, including the Upanishads. There is much wisdom to be learned in those pages. But - as with any kind of wisdom - it should all be taken with a pinch of salt and a questioning mind.

we preach tolerance, maybe because we expect to recieve and give it. Agree or Disagree?

But not everyone does preach tolerance. Many are happy believing that their 'right' is the only 'right' and believe that all others ought to convert or perish. A typical kafir mentality, entirely laughable, and wholly un-Sikkh.

[Lionchild]

A Sikh is a Sikh is a Sikh. Nothing else.

All the energy you spend a grandma you should spend at the Gurdwara then maybe 5% of the time you spend at the Gurdwara you could spend at anothers

The hindu pundit thing I completely agree with. I would have more respect to a pundit who didnt bow to teachings he didnt follow. So why would I go to a church "mass" whatever you want to call the gathering and take part of something I dont believe at all.---Do you wear your turban while doing this?--- Or do you remove it to please your grandma and feel like people of the congregation would look at you dumb?

so a christian/hindu/muslim isnt a student of god?? sikh = student/disiple

i try to get involved in the community, regardless of what religion people have...

The time i usually spend with my grandma is when i'm working for her, i went over to her church during that time to hlp her out. That was a shortsighted comment pritam.

And no, i wear my dastaar to work and also when i go out to eat, shop, play, and walk - i'm not ashamed to wear my kakars.

As for the gurudwara, maybe you shoudl come up to vernon bc and see this place for yourself... no sikhitothemax english subtitles, no books/services for the youth, and not even any one around usually for any new people to see.

[MAX]

so a christian/hindu/muslim isnt a student of god?? sikh = student/disiple

i try to get involved in the community, regardless of what religion people have...

The time i usually spend with my grandma is when i'm working for her, i went over to her church during that time to hlp her out. That was a shortsighted comment pritam.

And no, i wear my dastaar to work and also when i go out to eat, shop, play, and walk - i'm not ashamed to wear my kakars.

As for the gurudwara, maybe you shoudl come up to vernon bc and see this place for yourself... no sikhitothemax english subtitles, no books/services for the youth, and not even any one around usually for any new people to see.

Fly, baby. Fly :TH:

[Guest Narinder Singh]

"The Khalsa meditates on the Ever-radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else but the one Lord from the mind. He decorates himself with perfect love and faith, and believes not in fasts, tombs, crematoriums and hermit cells, even by mistake." - Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj

First off, i have no problem with any place of worship, and yes MAX, it takes a person who is truly firm in their belief to visit a place of worship other than their own, (and thats probably why i havent, except for visiting a Bahai temple) I find no problem with a Sikh visiting a Mandir, Masjid, Church and so on, but i dont understand why a Sikh would take part in their services, prayers or rituals when he or she has taken a solemn oath not to perform the practices of any other religion, that is all im saying.

I know of a few Brahmins who visit our gurdwara every now and then, they listen to the kirtan and katha, but never bow in front of Guru Sahib. That is what i respect, not someone who bows in front of teachings that are completely different than theirs.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Lionchild]

First off, i have no problem with any place of worship, and yes MAX, it takes a person who is truly firm in their belief to visit a place of worship other than their own, (and thats probably why i havent, except for visiting a Bahai temple) I find no problem with a Sikh visiting a Mandir, Masjid, Church and so on, but i dont understand why a Sikh would take part in their services, prayers or rituals when he or she has taken a solemn oath not to perform the practices of any other religion, that is all im saying

so cleaning floors and wiping walls is a now a forbidan practice? That is what i was doing, but i don't actually worship with them or do some of their religious practices...

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

People get all butt hurt when I post a contreversial issue.

I just sit back and watch the fireworks.

I see people flip things around.

The thing I think is funny is when people jump in the debate and say "can everyone just get along."

Or saying"Peace and love man" When the Khalsa was fighting in war were they just saying "lets just get along brothers."