Caste/ Chamaar

[Guest _manny_]

does it really matter, the points seem down to earth, logical

[Guest _Deep_]

I am a Chamar and proud of it. I tell everyone who I meet. I take pride for of being a chamar aka leather worker. Also its Guru Ravidass get is right, he was no bhagat.

[Guest Guest]

Firstly, the Nishaan is not "ad dharmi" symbol because that is translated into one who has no religion i.e an aethist and Ravidassias are not aethists.

Secondly, we call Guru Ravidass Guru, because he taught people and thats what guru means- teacher.

People class themselves as half caste- half Sikh and half Hindu, its because they have been rejected by invididuals from both religions. I am a Ravidassia and I have never hesititated in telling people what I am and my roots.I have had many people in my life approach me and ask me my caste and that includes Christians and Muslims.

Ravidassias who are segregating themselves as having their own religions only do so because they are constantly taunted and insulted by those "higher" than us.

[Guest antifanaticjatt]

does it really matter, the points seem down to earth, logical

no sorry, u r not allowed to be chamiar in front of fanatics, but it is ok in front of other sikhs.

fanatics don;'t respect people from any caste, except people who call themselves sikhs only. so expect some racism from them, if u go facebook, there will bea few groups that say that jatts and chamiars are not allowed to be sikh, and they would have to give them up. so u will see teh racism and intolerance.

i thought i would just warn u bro

[Guest Tony Ganger]

ok ive got this question for the people who are from a chamaar background..( sorry dnt mean to offend anyone by bringing up the caste thing but its the only way for me to get the answer............ i just wanted to know that now that you are into sikhi...do you still believe bhagat ravidass is a guru???

as i am from a chamaar background...however im AGAINST castes..since ive got into sikhi i see things from a different point of view etc........and to be honest i thought through and it made sence that bhagat ravidass cant be a guru as in gurbani its made clear who are the ten gurus...however i dnt get the concept that in the "guru ravidass gurdwara" they have guru granth sahib and they bow down to the guru which contains the quotes to prove bhagat ravidass isnt a guru..as bhagat ravidass has written in his shabd that he is no more than a bhagat...so what is the arguement about???

that does not mean bhagat ravidass is given no respect....obviously his slok are in guru granth sahib..... he is such an inspirational bhagat for others...however i believe he should not be seen as guru...like at the moment everyone thinks im brain washed or something for thinking like that <_< ..but obviously they cannot understand why i think like that now...

i know some ppl might be like these questions shouldnt bother you as you need to concentrate on your path etc but these kind of questions are asked b people and you could call this my weakness or whatever but i do hesitate to answer this question as you could imagine brought up in a family where a family have followed half of the stuff that is not even part of sikhism forget starting on the other stuff...and then you have to turn away from all of them belives.....and at the moment i know what i want and thats guruji...however when the community asks me these kind of questions....."oh so you believe that guru ravidass is not a guru now"? ..for some reason i dnt want to answer the questions and i really dnt know why..maybe im scared to see the result :umm:

im sorry if this post has offended anyone...to be honest i dnt even know what i want from sangat jee as ive written this post :umm: ...

[Guest __learner__]

jwxhu joiq n pUChu jwqI AwgY jwiq n hy ]1] rhwau ]

jaanahu joth n pooshhahu jaathee aagai jaath n hae ||1|| rehaao ||

Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||

Guru Amar Daas Ji in Raag Bhairao on Ang 1127

rwgu BYrau mhlw 3 caupdy Gru 1

raag bhairo mehalaa 3 choupadhae ghar 1

Raag Bhairao, Third Mehla, ChauPaday, First House:

<> siqgur pRswid ]

ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

jwiq kw grbu n krIAhu koeI ]

jaath kaa garab n kareeahu koee ||

No one should be proud of his social class and status.

bRhmu ibMdy so bRwhmxu hoeI ]1]

breham bi(n)dhae so braahaman hoee ||1||

He alone is a Brahmin, who knows God. ||1||

jwiq kw grbu n kir mUrK gvwrw ]

jaath kaa garab n kar moorakh gavaaraa ||

Do not be proud of your social class and status, you ignorant fool!

iesu grb qy clih bhuqu ivkwrw ]1] rhwau ]

eis garab thae chalehi bahuth vikaaraa ||1|| rehaao ||

So much sin and corruption comes from this pride. ||1||Pause||

cwry vrn AwKY sBu koeI ]

chaarae varan aakhai sabh koee ||

Everyone says that there are four castes, four social classes.

bRhmu ibMd qy sB Epiq hoeI ]2]

breham bi(n)dh thae sabh oupath hoee ||2||

They all emanate from the drop of God's Seed. ||2||

mwtI eyk sgl sMswrw ]

maattee eaek sagal sa(n)saaraa ||

The entire universe is made of the same clay.

bhu ibiD BWfy GVY kum@wrw ]3]

bahu bidhh bhaa(n)ddae gharrai kumhaaraa ||3||

The Potter has shaped it into all sorts of vessels. ||3||

pMc qqu imil dyhI kw Awkwrw ]

pa(n)ch thath mil dhaehee kaa aakaaraa ||

The five elements join together, to make up the form of the human body.

Git viD ko krY bIcwrw ]4]

ghatt vadhh ko karai beechaaraa ||4||

Who can say which is less, and which is more? ||4||

khqu nwnk iehu jIau krm bMDu hoeI ]

kehath naanak eihu jeeo karam ba(n)dhh hoee ||

Says Nanak, this soul is bound by its actions.

ibnu siqgur Byty mukiq n hoeI ]5]1]

bin sathigur bhaettae mukath n hoee ||5||1||

Without meeting the True Guru, it is not liberated. ||5||1||

vrn ichn sglh qy rhqw ] nwnk hir hir gurmuiK jo khqw ]46]

varan chihan sagaleh thae rehathaa || naanak har har guramukh jo kehathaa ||46||

O Nanak, one who becomes Gurmukh chants the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, and rises above all social classes and status symbols. ||46||

hir Bgqw kI jwiq piq hY Bgq hir kY nwim smwxy rwm ]

har bhagathaa kee jaath path hai bhagath har kai naam samaanae raam ||

The Lord is the social class and honor of His devotees; the Lord's devotees merge in the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

hir hir krq jwiq kul hrI ]

har har karath jaath kul haree ||

Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, erases social classes and ancestral pedigrees.

kbIr ko Twkuru And ibnodI jwiq n kwhU kI mwnI ]2]9]

kabeer ko t(h)aakur anadh binodhee jaath n kaahoo kee maanee ||2||9||

Kabeer's Lord and Master is joyous and blissful; He does not care about anyone's social class. ||2||9||

Abrn brn isau mn hI pRIiq ]

abaran baran sio man hee preeth ||

Those who believe in high and low social classes,

haumY gwvin gwvih gIq ]

houmai gaavan gaavehi geeth ||

only sing songs and chants of egotism.

(Gurujee knew what was coming in future...Punjabi songs glorifying caste)

jwiq brn kul shsw cUkw gurmiq sbid bIcwrI ]1]

jaath baran kul sehasaa chookaa guramath sabadh beechaaree ||1||

Social class and status, race, ancestry and skepticism are eliminated, following the Guru's Teachings and contemplating the Word of the Shabad. ||1||

ijsu mnu mwnY AiBmwnu n qw kau ihMsw loBu ivswry ]

jis man maanai abhimaan n thaa ko hi(n)saa lobh visaarae ||

One whose mind is pleased and appeased, has no egotistical pride. Violence and greed are forgotten.

jwiq jnmu nh pUCIAY sc Gru lyhu bqwie ]

jaath janam neh pooshheeai sach ghar laehu bathaae ||

God does not ask about social class or birth; you must find your true home.

sw jwiq sw piq hY jyhy krm kmwie ]

saa jaath saa path hai jaehae karam kamaae ||

That is your social class and that is your status - the karma of what you have done.

[Guest Caste - N/A !]

my point of view is that

bani hai guru guru hai bani

we as just mear mortals can not and shouldnt consider comparing Guru sahibs and Bhagats of maharaj, which ever Guru sahibans bani is in Guru Granth sahib ji can be called guru. if any one were having a conversation with me and said guru ravidass ji, it would not concern me - although i call them Bhagat.

in regards to jatts and chamar issue - if jatts consider chamaars as low csaste they must than acknowledge they are also low caste - and no i am not a chamarr nor a jatt nor a tharkhan or whatever other castes your thinking of.

+ last thing - if someone posts on this forum and types Bhagat Ravidas 'Ji' !!!!! name without respect - i would consider them a non sikh.

[Guest celtic]

I am a Chamar and proud of it. I tell everyone who I meet. I take pride for of being a chamar aka leather worker. Also its Guru Ravidass get is right, he was no bhagat.

well u are no longer leather worker.most chummars are well educated this days so the majhabis they ate doing better then the jatt...the famers

[Guest A lost soul]

What I’ve read bhagat, in that time also meant guru. It was just a different way of saying guru. I'm sorry to say in sikhi, caste plays a great tool including types of caste, instead of reading our granth I believe we shud try to understand it on an equilibrium not drawing favour or miss interoperating it! Jaat hoveh use mullah/gur/sat pursh/lord ke

[Guest oliver]

ok ive got this question for the people who are from a chamaar background..( sorry dnt mean to offend anyone by bringing up the caste thing but its the only way for me to get the answer............ i just wanted to know that now that you are into sikhi...do you still believe bhagat ravidass is a guru???

as i am from a chamaar background...however im AGAINST castes..since ive got into sikhi i see things from a different point of view etc........and to be honest i thought through and it made sence that bhagat ravidass cant be a guru as in gurbani its made clear who are the ten gurus...however i dnt get the concept that in the "guru ravidass gurdwara" they have guru granth sahib and they bow down to the guru which contains the quotes to prove bhagat ravidass isnt a guru..as bhagat ravidass has written in his shabd that he is no more than a bhagat...so what is the arguement about???

that does not mean bhagat ravidass is given no respect....obviously his slok are in guru granth sahib..... he is such an inspirational bhagat for others...however i believe he should not be seen as guru...like at the moment everyone thinks im brain washed or something for thinking like that <_< ..but obviously they cannot understand why i think like that now...

i know some ppl might be like these questions shouldnt bother you as you need to concentrate on your path etc but these kind of questions are asked b people and you could call this my weakness or whatever but i do hesitate to answer this question as you could imagine brought up in a family where a family have followed half of the stuff that is not even part of sikhism forget starting on the other stuff...and then you have to turn away from all of them belives.....and at the moment i know what i want and thats guruji...however when the community asks me these kind of questions....."oh so you believe that guru ravidass is not a guru now"? ..for some reason i dnt want to answer the questions and i really dnt know why..maybe im scared to see the result :umm:

im sorry if this post has offended anyone...to be honest i dnt even know what i want from sangat jee as ive written this post :umm: ...

If you say that you are not a man, should also say that, If Ravidass was a bhagat he can be a guru to any spiritual person, It is a diffrent thing that he was not one of the 10 Sikh Gurus but he was a guru of Meera Bai and number of other Rajputs and Jatts also accepted his teachings and therefore...,

But why do ppl fight over such trivial issues, the religion expands with expansion of similiar branches.