Caste/ Chamaar

[KKV]

No one please ask me about caste/tribe/clan affiliation please. It emabarasses me because I start thinking I'm talking like a Hindu and there is no difference between us. Plus all the stuff I tell other communities (who ask) about Sikhism striving for equality and castelessness becomes nothing but hypocritical drivel then! Lol

I can't change others opinions but for myself a Sikh is a Sikh, and a key aspect of this I've always believed in was seeing others as equal brothers.

Whoa! There is nothing wrong about taking pride of your heritage as long you're not looking down on others.

tru story ^^^

u well remind me of my bruva - he's a Jatt fanatic - i think its u or is it that otha Bhaji on here....confusssed noooww :umm:

[dalsingh101]

No one please ask me about caste/tribe/clan affiliation please. It emabarasses me because I start thinking I'm talking like a Hindu and there is no difference between us. Plus all the stuff I tell other communities (who ask) about Sikhism striving for equality and castelessness becomes nothing but hypocritical drivel then! Lol

I can't change others opinions but for myself a Sikh is a Sikh, and a key aspect of this I've always believed in was seeing others as equal brothers.

Whoa! There is nothing wrong about taking pride of your heritage as long you're not looking down on others.

Brother, in my life (and I'm guessing I am a fair few years older than you), I have seen nothing tear up Sikhs internally more than this "pride".

From people treating others in a way (zulmi) that would make a cruel Bahman blush, to physical fights for no reason. To the inability of SIkhs from different backgrounds to get together and unite against common threats whilst people laugh in our boothees taking the worst liberties. How could I ever do anything but condemn this in light of these experiences.

Another thing I find (in the UK at least) is that the stereotypes (that's what i think they have become) about one group and another are turned on their heads. So particular characteristics that certain groups are supposed to have are blatantly not true. So you can find people who are supposedly Jats who sell Sikhi the eff out in everyway, and are big cowards and others who are supposedly inferior fighters being able to knock out guys left right and centre better than most. Conversely there are Jats (who are alledgedly <banned word filter activated>) doing really well academically. OK, be proud of our heritage and past but why doesn't ANYONE ever talk about the future and what we need to do to progress in this modern globalised world?

The only thing we have in common is a common spiritual father who exalted us all and taught us insaaniyat (humanity). Once we lose this we just regress as a community in this modern day and age and look like a bunch of backward weirdo mumbo jumbo merchants from a dirty backward country.

Apologies - no offence intended to anyone.

Speak from the heart - Those who appreciate truthfulness will appreciate, even if they don't agree.

[Punjabi_Link]

No one please ask me about caste/tribe/clan affiliation please. It emabarasses me because I start thinking I'm talking like a Hindu and there is no difference between us. Plus all the stuff I tell other communities (who ask) about Sikhism striving for equality and castelessness becomes nothing but hypocritical drivel then! Lol

I can't change others opinions but for myself a Sikh is a Sikh, and a key aspect of this I've always believed in was seeing others as equal brothers.

Whoa! There is nothing wrong about taking pride of your heritage as long you're not looking down on others.

tru story ^^^

u well remind me of my bruva - he's a Jatt fanatic - i think its u or is it that otha Bhaji on here....confusssed noooww :umm:

I am NOT a jatt fanatic, it is just I don't see anything wrong with someone taking pride of his/her heritage.

[Punjabi_Link]

No one please ask me about caste/tribe/clan affiliation please. It emabarasses me because I start thinking I'm talking like a Hindu and there is no difference between us. Plus all the stuff I tell other communities (who ask) about Sikhism striving for equality and castelessness becomes nothing but hypocritical drivel then! Lol

I can't change others opinions but for myself a Sikh is a Sikh, and a key aspect of this I've always believed in was seeing others as equal brothers.

Whoa! There is nothing wrong about taking pride of your heritage as long you're not looking down on others.

Brother, in my life (and I'm guessing I am a fair few years older than you), I have seen nothing tear up Sikhs internally more than this "pride".

From people treating others in a way (zulmi) that would make a cruel Bahman blush, to physical fights for no reason. To the inability of SIkhs from different backgrounds to get together and unite against common threats whilst people laugh in our boothees taking the worst liberties. How could I ever do anything but condemn this in light of these experiences.

Another thing I find (in the UK at least) is that the stereotypes (that's what i think they have become) about one group and another are turned on their heads. So particular characteristics that certain groups are supposed to have are blatantly not true. So you can find people who are supposedly Jats who sell Sikhi the eff out in everyway, and are big cowards and others who are supposedly inferior fighters being able to knock out guys left right and centre better than most. Conversely there are Jats (who are alledgedly <banned word filter activated>) doing really well academically. OK, be proud of our heritage and past but why doesn't ANYONE ever talk about the future and what we need to do to progress in this modern globalised world?

The only thing we have in common is a common spiritual father who exalted us all and taught us insaaniyat (humanity). Once we lose this we just regress as a community in this modern day and age and look like a bunch of backward weirdo mumbo jumbo merchants from a dirty backward country.

Apologies - no offence intended to anyone.

Speak from the heart - Those who appreciate truthfulness will appreciate, even if they don't agree.

The only internal issue I see that tears up the Sikh community is this whole "only amritdhari are Sikhs" issue. Here in Canada, there isn't a problem when comes to this jatt issue, but then again, 80%-95% of sikhs living in Canada are Jatts.

[dalsingh101]

No one please ask me about caste/tribe/clan affiliation please. It emabarasses me because I start thinking I'm talking like a Hindu and there is no difference between us. Plus all the stuff I tell other communities (who ask) about Sikhism striving for equality and castelessness becomes nothing but hypocritical drivel then! Lol

I can't change others opinions but for myself a Sikh is a Sikh, and a key aspect of this I've always believed in was seeing others as equal brothers.

Whoa! There is nothing wrong about taking pride of your heritage as long you're not looking down on others.

Brother, in my life (and I'm guessing I am a fair few years older than you), I have seen nothing tear up Sikhs internally more than this "pride".

From people treating others in a way (zulmi) that would make a cruel Bahman blush, to physical fights for no reason. To the inability of SIkhs from different backgrounds to get together and unite against common threats whilst people laugh in our boothees taking the worst liberties. How could I ever do anything but condemn this in light of these experiences.

Another thing I find (in the UK at least) is that the stereotypes (that's what i think they have become) about one group and another are turned on their heads. So particular characteristics that certain groups are supposed to have are blatantly not true. So you can find people who are supposedly Jats who sell Sikhi the eff out in everyway, and are big cowards and others who are supposedly inferior fighters being able to knock out guys left right and centre better than most. Conversely there are Jats (who are alledgedly <banned word filter activated>) doing really well academically. OK, be proud of our heritage and past but why doesn't ANYONE ever talk about the future and what we need to do to progress in this modern globalised world?

The only thing we have in common is a common spiritual father who exalted us all and taught us insaaniyat (humanity). Once we lose this we just regress as a community in this modern day and age and look like a bunch of backward weirdo mumbo jumbo merchants from a dirty backward country.

Apologies - no offence intended to anyone.

Speak from the heart - Those who appreciate truthfulness will appreciate, even if they don't agree.

The onlyinternal issue I see that tears up the Sikh community is this whole "only amritdhari are Sikhs" issue. Here in Canada, there isn't a problem when comes to this jatt issue, but then again, 80%-95% of sikhs living in Canada are Jatts.

At the risk of offending I think both parties have valid points. Amritdharis claim that some people from Sikh backgrounds getting persistantly drunk, and involved in criminal activities that make the community look bad to the wider society is valid. The Punjabi drug dealer phenomena is something that even I find embarrassing. And people from Sikh backgrounds murdering each other over drug deals and macho bull c r a p is just plain disgraceful, however you look at it.

But overlooking that nowadays the majority of people of SIkh descent have hair cuts and trying to exclude them whilst happily accepting their financial contributions is also nonsense. Overlooking the fact that many people who have taken amrit too are closely involved in criminal activity especially misuse of Gurdwara funds is the other side of the coin. Also the respect that many "mona" Sikhs get from the wider communities they live in by interacting with them and showing them that SIkhs are not a segregated closed minded people is also unappreciated. Also the big contribution of getting respect on a street level by taking on people who try to mess also gets grossly ignored.

Like I said, differentiating based on caste, clan, ethnicity (however you view it) between us is what brings us down. Especially since one of the major points of the Sikh movement (from my limited understanding) is the levelling of people as equals. I see it as a very small step from "pride" to hatred and looking down on others which is pretty disgusting. If you are honest that is exactly where this pride usually leads people 90% of the time, even if you may be different.

Going back to the original thread. The kind of treatment I have seen chuhras and chamaars receive in the past really makes me ashamed (in no small way). If we claim that they are too Hindufied, I'm not really surprised given the almost Nazi way they are treated that some of them have failed to come fully under the Sikh banner. Screw that - my own families attitude towards this is so backward that I'm in shock that people can hold views like that despite being in the west for many decades.

One Guru

One Flag

One people

One love

[malkeet]

awesome kirtan, all the shabbads are by bhagat ravidas

http://music.pz10.com/album/2385/Keh%20Rav...gar%20Wale.html

[gurmeetjodhey]

eg. my cousin believes the Khanda is a "jatt sign" :umm: @ wackooooo

my massar says we r hindus that follow sikhism :umm:

i cud go on n onnnnnn

i think "K" was just portraying ammusingly above two things

and the thread stretched just like a rubber over the "Khanda" issue

the main question of the thread left, i donno where ???

[Guest _sukh_]

ok ive got this question for the people who are from a chamaar background..( sorry dnt mean to offend anyone by bringing up the caste thing but its the only way for me to get the answer............ i just wanted to know that now that you are into sikhi...do you still believe bhagat ravidass is a guru???

as i am from a chamaar background...however im AGAINST castes..since ive got into sikhi i see things from a different point of view etc........and to be honest i thought through and it made sence that bhagat ravidass cant be a guru as in gurbani its made clear who are the ten gurus...however i dnt get the concept that in the "guru ravidass gurdwara" they have guru granth sahib and they bow down to the guru which contains the quotes to prove bhagat ravidass isnt a guru..as bhagat ravidass has written in his shabd that he is no more than a bhagat...so what is the arguement about???

that does not mean bhagat ravidass is given no respect....obviously his slok are in guru granth sahib..... he is such an inspirational bhagat for others...however i believe he should not be seen as guru...like at the moment everyone thinks im brain washed or something for thinking like that :lol: ..but obviously they cannot understand why i think like that now...

i know some ppl might be like these questions shouldnt bother you as you need to concentrate on your path etc but these kind of questions are asked b people and you could call this my weakness or whatever but i do hesitate to answer this question as you could imagine brought up in a family where a family have followed half of the stuff that is not even part of sikhism forget starting on the other stuff...and then you have to turn away from all of them belives.....and at the moment i know what i want and thats guruji...however when the community asks me these kind of questions....."oh so you believe that guru ravidass is not a guru now"? ..for some reason i dnt want to answer the questions and i really dnt know why..maybe im scared to see the result

im sorry if this post has offended anyone...to be honest i dnt even know what i want from sangat jee as ive written this post ...

I have a different point of view, nothing to offend anyone. but i think first we need understand the true meanings of the word it self GURU in order for us to come to a clear understanding of who we can call guru or who is a guru and who is not etc... The word Guru has its roots sewed in sanskrit, which is a compound of two words, GU and RU. Gu means DARKNESS and RU means LIGHT, and once its translated in its pure form, the meaning comes clear and or obvious. GURU is someone who is able to bring a normal human being out of darkness into light. Ignorance here is the darkness and the true knowledge is the light. If Bhagat or guru Ravidas' words are powerful enough to lighten your sould, which I believe they are, there is absolutely nothing wrong with calling Bhagat Ravidas, Guru Ravidas. I do not mean to offend anyone, ask for your forgiveness if am a little rude.

[OhTwadi]

^ in gurbani, bhagats have been given the tittle of bhagat, not guru's . i can't remember the tuks atm tho :lol:

but the main point is, that once their bani is included in guru granth sahib jee maharaaj, then there is no difference. doesn't mater what their profession was

har hajan doey ek hai ....

[G. Singh]

I DON'T THINK BHAGAT RAVIDAS JI SHOULD B CONSIDERED A GURU BUT WE CAN NOT FORGET THEIR GREAT CONTRIBUTIONS TO SIKHI. IN THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB THEY TEACH US HOW TO DO BHAGATI AND HOW TO UNITE WITH WAHEGURU.