Maharaja Ranjit Singh In The Eyes On Non-sikhs

[dalsingh101]

DalSingh veer it would be great if you could post something about his other side too.

I'll have to dig them out Paaji. May take some time but will post as soon as I find them.

[dalsingh101]

We are not discussing whether he was a Sikh (he wasn't in my opinion since he did not keep rehat) or not but who he really was as a king and how he managed his kingdom. Once again, all the information is coming from sources as listed. Nothing is made up by me.

Ranjit Singh was much better person than he was and yet we are keeping insulting him just because he wasn't a Sikh. His contributions are much more than all other kings combined. Why insult him and always focus on his bad side? Why such an intolerance? Don't misinterpret the purpose of this topic. I find it funny that Amritdharis (who are always blamed for intolerance) on this forum are not being intolerant as you two are. Your lack of understanding is not my fault. If you want to post negative stuff on him or argue over him you can start a different topic. Someone asked me for the info so I am posting it here. Take it, learn it or reject it. Your choice.

If people don't like it I won't post anymore. It doesn't hurt me in any way.

Try not adding spin. Put a balanced picture in. It is people like yourself that are quick to judge and dismiss for personal laxness, not me. I say he was Sikh, plain as that.

What you see as insults towards him are just plainly stating the facts in my eyes, it is just the truth about him. But to your mind it becomes an insult somehow. Funny how you twist and convolute history to suit yourself. Maharajah Ranjit Singh was just a man, a great one at that, even with all his vices. You trying to claim he wasn't Sikh whilst making yourself out to be one is actually comical. You think you are ever going to do anything remotely as great as him for Punjab or Sikhs? Just accept, you don't have to have strict puritan views to be a Sikh. Ranjit Singh was my type of Singh. Lol

[Punjabi_Link]

*EDITED*

Who edited my post? I didn't break any rules. Besides, couple people here agree with my post.

God damn, I am sick of this s.hit. :D

[dalsingh101]

DalSingh veer it would be great if you could post something about his other side too.

I'll have to dig them out Paaji. May take some time but will post as soon as I find them.

William Osborne after meeting the Maharajah

"The more I see of Runjeet Singh, the more he strikes me as an extraordinary man. Cunning and distrustful himself, he has succeeded in inspiring his followers with a strong and devoted attachment to his person; with a quick talent at reading men's minds, he is equally adept at concealing his own; and it is curious to see the sort of quiet indifference with which he listens to the absurd reports of his own motives and actions which are daily poured into his ears at the Durbar, without giving any opinion of his own, and without rendering it possible to guess what his final decision on any subject will be, till the moment for action has arrived. Though he is by profession a Sikh, in religion he is in reality a sceptic, and it is difficult to say whether his superstition is real, or only a mask assumed to gratify and conciliate his people. He is mild and merciful as a ruler, but faithless and deceitful; perfectly uneducated, unable even to read or write, he has by his own natural and unassisted intellect raised himself from the situation of a private individual to that of a despotic monarch over a turbulent and powerful nation. By sheer force of mind, personal energy and courage (though at the commencement of his career he was feared and detested rather than loved), he has established his throne on a firmer foundation than that of any other eastern sovereign, and but for other watchful jealously of the British government, would long ere have added Scinde, if not Afghanistan, to his present kingdom. Ill-looking as he undoubtedly is, the countenance of Runjeet Sing cannot fail to strike everyone as that of a very extraordinary man; and though at first his appearance gives rise to a disagreeable feeling almost amounting to disgust, a second look shows so much intelligence, and the restless wandering of his single fiery eye excites so much interest, that you get accustomed to his plainness, and are forced to confess that there is no common degree of intellect and acuteness developed in his countenance."

Osborne also had the opportunity to record about Maharaja Ranjit Singh's lively banquets. "On my return home, I met the Maharajah taking his usual ride. He was very inquisitive as to where I had been, and I never saw him in so good a humour or such high spirits. After a good deal of gossip upon various subjects, he said, "You have never been at one of my drinking parties; it is bad work drinking now as the weather is so hot; but as soon as we have a good rainy day, we will have one." I sincerely hope it will not rain rat all during our stay, for, from all accounts, nothing can be such a nuisance as one of these parties. His wine is extracted from raisins, with a quantity of pearls ground to powder, and mixed with it, for no other reason (that I can hear) than to add to the expense of it. It is made for him alone, and though he sometimes gives a few bottles to some of his favourite chiefs, it is very difficult to be procured, even at the enormous price of one gold mohur for a small bottle. If is as strong as aquafortis, and as at his parties he always helps you himself, it is no easy matter to avoid excess. He generally, on these occasions, has two or three Hebes in the shape of the prettiest of his Cachemirian girls to attend upon himself and guests, and gives way to every species of licentious debauchery. He fell violently in love with one of these fair cup-bearers about two years ago, and actually married her, after parading her on a pillion before himself on horseback, through the camp and city, for two or three days, to the great disgust of all his people. (I think this was the Moran or Muslim girl he married and was going to get whipped for).

The only food allowed to you at these drinking bouts are fat quails stuffed with all sorts of spices, and the only thing to allay your thirst, naturally consequent upon eating such heating food, is this abominable liquid fire. Runjeet himself laughs at our wines, and says that he drinks for excitement, and that the sooner that object is attained the better Of all the wines we brought with us as a present to him from the Governor-General, consisting of port, claret, hock, champagne, etc., the whiskey was the only thing he liked. During these potation" he generally orders the attendance of all his dancing girls, whom he forces to drink his wine, and when he thinks them sufficiently excited, uses all his power to set them by the ears, the result of which is a general action, in the course of which they tear one another almost to pieces. They pull one another's nose and earrings by main force, and sometimes even more serious accidents occur; Runjeet sitting by encouraging them with the greatest delight, and exclaiming to his guests, "Burra tomacha, burra tomacha" (great fun)."

[Balwinder Singh]

Edited: Its between him and mods, so please let them solve the issue :D

[dalsingh101]

Jacquemont, a French botanist and traveller was in Punjab for three years (1829-32) and met Maharaja Ranjit Singh a number of times.

"This model Asiatic king is no saint: far from it. He cares nothing for law or good faith, unless it is to his interest to be just or faithful; but he is not cruel. He orders very great criminals to have their noses and ears cut off, or a hand, but he never takes life. He has a passion for horses, which amounts almost to a mania; he has waged the most costly and bloody wars for the purpose of seizing a horse in some neighbouring State which they had refused to give or sell him. He is extremely brave, a quality rather rare among Eastern princes, and though he has always been successful in his military campaigns, it has been by treaties and cunning negotiations that he has made himself absolute king of the whole Punjab, Kashmir, etc. and is better obeyed by his subjects than the Mogul emperors were at the height of their power. A professing Sikh, though in reality a Skeptic, he goes to Amritsar every year to perform his devotions, and, oddly enough, visits the tombs of various Moslem Saints as well; yet these pilgrimages do not upset any of his more strait-laced co-religionists… One knows that Orientals are debauched; but they have some shame about it. Ranjit's excesses are shameless. The fact that this gray beard has had and has a number of catamites is nothing shocking in this country; but, apart from this, he has always consorted publicly with the women of the bazaar, whose patron and protector he is. At the great festivals there are hundreds of them at Lahore and Amritsar, whom he makes dress up in the most ridiculous way, ride on horses and follow him; on such occasions they form his bodyguard. He always has some of them in his camp, and they follow him everywhere riding upon his elephants. One of his pastimes when he has nothing better to do is to watch their flirtations with the young men of his court."

[S1ngh]

I deleted your post PL. Topic is to talk about Positive era of Ranjit Singh as Bijla singh requested in this thread and in other threads too and PL the reason your reply was edited out because all you were talking is why Bijla singh is posting so many threads on ranjit singh. How come he is taking his side as he wasn't good sikh and talking about bijla's defination of sikh etc....

Now Veerjee do you now understand why your reply was edited out? If you want to discuss both pros and cons open another thread. If you still don't like this S.hit (as you said).. you can always leave as you wish :D

[Punjabi_Link]

I deleted your post PL. Topic is to talk about Positive era of Ranjit Singh as Bijla singh requested in this thread and in other threads too and PL the reason your reply was edited out because all you were talking is why Bijla singh is posting so many threads on ranjit singh. How come he is taking his side as he wasn't good sikh and talking about bijla's defination of sikh etc....

Now Veerjee do you now understand why your reply was edited out? If you want to discuss both pros and cons open another thread. If you still don't like this S.hit (as you said).. you can always leave as you wish :D

So in other words, my comment was off-topic, right? If so, then how come we don't see mods editing other people's off-topic posts on other threads?

[Bijla Singh]

What you see as insults towards him are just plainly stating the facts in my eyes, it is just the truth about him. But to your mind it becomes an insult somehow. Funny how you twist and convolute history to suit yourself. Maharajah Ranjit Singh was just a man, a great one at that, even with all his vices. You trying to claim he wasn't Sikh whilst making yourself out to be one is actually comical. You think you are ever going to do anything remotely as great as him for Punjab or Sikhs? Just accept, you don't have to have strict puritan views to be a Sikh. Ranjit Singh was my type of Singh. Lol

I wasn't accusing you of insulting him or anyone. I was simply stating that many people on forums do that without realizing that he had good side also. In my posts I have only stated that since he did not keep rehat he was not a Sikh. I did not insult him at all. I keep rehat and therefore I am a Sikh. I may not be at high avastha but since I keep the bare minimum I am a Sikh according to Guru Sahib. Drinking alcohol, keeping multiple wives and having illicit relations with a prostitute is not what a Sikh does. If that is your ideal "Sikh" then you are welcome to live that way of life. I don't think you have done anything to contribute to Sikhi or Punjab either. Ranjit Singh made no contribution to the Sikh religion, however, on political level his contributions are worthy of praise. My type of Singh are Bhai Taru Singh Ji, Bhai Mani Singh Ji, Baba Deep Singh Ji and countless other gursikhs who sacrificed their lives but never compromised a single principle of Gurmat. I won't turn this topic into a personal fight or a debate. You are welcome to post whatever you want.

[dalsingh101]

I don't know who insults him like you say. I think most people with an iota of intelligence and knowledge of PreSikh Punjabi history will acknowledge the service he provided in securing the area from long standing invasions. Knowledgeable Sikh people (or peopel of Sikh descent) in general will acknowledge that. Personally I admire him and he is "my type of Singh" because he was a realist and a very practical person. He set goals and achieved them. We have to ask the uncomfortable question of whether this would have been possible at that time if he had been strict in his adherence to rehat. Personally I think not. Don't get me wrong though because there is plenty I find unpalatable about him...especially his wives and "slave girls" being burnt with him at his cremation.

To me he is like a Jinnah type figure for Muslim Pakistanis, who although never strictly following the religion himself, delivered a country to his people. Ironically it seems his own liberality in choosing a mixed bag of people at the top end of his empire ultimately became the undoing of the SIkh state. But there is a lesson to be learnt about dogmatic practice of religion in relation to ruling a diverse range of people. His biggest achievement in my eyes was the way he managed to accommodate so many different people from the extreme to the lax, and unify them under a common banner to everyone's advantage. All so called Sikh leaders could learn a lot from that.

I'm really sorry to hear you are unwilling to debate these matters but i am glad that I have tried to put out a more balanced picture of what the man may have been like for all to see. He was a man like all of us, in that he had his flaws, but he also unlike any of us for the great achievements he accomplished. He is a man truly worthy of study and led a life we can all learn from, warts and all.