What Constitutes Beadbi?...seriously....

[GDD]

Vaahiguroo jee kaa Khalsaa!!!

Vaahiguroo jee kee Fathe!!!

Sad sangat jee, lets have a serious debate on this issue.

There are many of us who will shout the term "BEADBI!!!" at a drop of a hat without knowing what's going on with a situation. There are alot more of us that will jump on the BEADBI bandwagon without knowing anything about an issue and there are even more of us that will talk about BEADBI and actually do nothing about it. So first of all, decide which category you fall into.

If you're in the first then I'm afraid you are the source of fake text messages an emails that get spammed across sikh websites and emails. You manage create havok and cause a huge amount of pain and distress for the people alledgedly causing the beadbi...I use the term alledgedly because YOU don't know anything about the situation, given your category.

If your in the second group then you that person that forwards all the emails and text messages because "your mate" has sent it to you without you actually finding out what going on. Is that you? Have you gone out of your way to find out about whats going on with each situation?

If you're in the final category then I'm afraid your a little ignorant or you don't want to be involved in what you may think is "politics" amongst what is now a topic dominated by sikh youth (unfortunatley).

Now that we have categorised ourselves lets ask the question of what beadbi is assuming sucham is not an issue and cleanliness has been top priority.

1. Is it taking Maharaaj (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee) to a tent in a field/park BEADBI? (Nishkam Sevak Jatha and "Kirtan in the park" event)

2. Is taking Maharaaj to a tent in an activity centre BEADBI? (BOSS/SIKHI CAMP)

3.Is taking Maharaaj to army barrocks BEADBI? (BOSS & KHALSA CAMP)

4. Is taking Maharaaj to a school for a gurpurb programme BEADBI? (recent event in East London held by a Gurdwara).

5. Is taking Maharaaj around you local area BEADBI? (NAGAR KIRTANS)

6. Is taking maharaj to conference centres BEADBI (weddings/hotels/halls and eg the NEC BIRMINGHAM where a certain jatha took Maharaaj)

I have nothing against any organisation that does sikhi parchar and we can see that some of the above examples are parcharik issues.

However, why do we have a problem with some of the above, and take a stand, and not the others? I wil take the Gurdwara taking Maharaaj to a local school as an example. There was sucham, everything was cleaned thoroughly and Maryada was upheld (or would have been upheld if Maharaaj was taken to the school and 80 banday not turned up to bully the Gurdwara). Gursikhs in southall (one of which was a teacher and had passed away recently) took Maharaaj to schools and did parchar all the time! Dhan are these Gursikhs I say! Why did "we" as a group of young Gursikhs have a problem with this issue and not others like camps/parks/barrocks? There have been times when campers have found cigarette butts on premises where Maharaaj has been taken for camps, times when bars have been on the same premises has Maharaaj. Wheres the logic in all this sangat jee? I find it very difficult to understand how we can have such double standards.

Camps do GREAT parchar....no doubt about it. But why don't we stand against camps that are held in army barrock (lets not be niave - we know what happens at army barrocks, sharaab, tobacco and alot more). What about tents/marquees?

Lets not even mention wedding halls! (Before anyone jumps on this point and this point alone let me make clear that I am against this TOTALLY)

Why the double standards?

Bhul chuk maaf I am not a very good speller!

Vaahiguroo jee kaa Khalsaa!!!

Vaahiguroo jee kee Fathe!!!

[khalistan_militant]

good post

[Singhstah]

i have to agree

while ppl taking mahraj to wedding halls just for the sake of it is VERY wrong

people really take it too far.

Guroo Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj travelled near enough around the world to do parchar, he went to meet with and save CANNIBALS lol, do you think going to a school where a kid or teacher might have had a ciggarette in their pocket would stop mahraj.

[Akaali]

Proper maryada must be followed when taking maharaj saroop anywhere (no trace of alchohol/drugs/meat should be present, and the place must be cleaned thoroughly) and the reasons of taking maharaj saroop anywhere MUST BE for a sikhi related event not for a wedding, seeking guidance or other personal reasons, for personal issues/requests you must goto the gurdwara sahib.

[Sarbloh]

I believe we have witnessed the deterioration in the usage of beadbi slogan certainly over the last 2 years. I don’t think the R4G campaign is in existence anymore and has been replaced by splinter cells of agenda driven groups. From groups in the East London/Ilford area who source many of the beadbi sms text messages to some of the elders from the West Brom or ”Babbar Khalsa” Gurdwaras who have jumped on the bandwagon in order to appear panthic.

Issues seem to be hand-picked by influential individuals and then blown out of proportion in order to gauge a passionate reaction. The spreading of text messages, use of multiple ids on the internet forums, use of buzz words like ‘masands’ and anonymity all help spin the issue.

Below are some of my concerns that I have expressed in the past about the approach of the anti beadbi campaigns in the UK. Despite being one of the strongest and most established Sikh community outside India, we are no where near united in one leadership.

It seems the anti beadbi campaigns are reacting to situations every time rather than working proactively, which is the stage they SHOULD be at NOW after almost 5 years. I have never heard the beadbi campaigns holding large scale parchar and gatherings up and down the country continually to educate the Sikh masses and the Gurdwara parbandhaks.

The best way to counter beadbi is to involve and increase the knowledge and learning among the Sikh sangats, run active learning process where the Sikh sangats participate in daily care and respect of the saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji during daily prayers and ceremonies. This will increase the involvement of local Sikh sangats, offering them opportunities to take control over their own areas and their own Gurdwaras. The field is now open to a Singh Sabha type large scale movement among local sikh sangats over this issue.

Many Sikhs are now having great concerns the direction the present campaigns are taking. If it simply continues on this road, all we may end up doing is to expose the campaigns as nothing short of fanatical individuals, finally segregating the beadbi campaigns to a bunch of riot seeking fanatics comparable to any other religious zeolots. This is not what they should become, neither only the crowd that gathers only to make “force" respect for Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji.

The danger with the growing egos is that the Sikh youth are not going to understand the dire need to turn the anti beadbi campaigns diplomatic and into a Sikh sangat movement. We need to connect the Panth together where there will be no need to force large protests to counter issues over the respect for Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji, each and every time, and causing volatile situations which we seem to struggle to justify when confronted by the media and even other Sikhs.

[GDD]

Sarbloh, I agree with alot of waht you are saying.

However, for any of this to happen we need to hold some sort of conference or "jor mela" to discuss this. There are some of us that will quote the akaal takht sandesh everytime beadbi is shouted out yet will follow a seperate maryada when it comes to everything else and actually dismiss akaal takat altogether. We can't pick and choose as we are doing presently. These "shouters" will say that Jathedars of akaal takhat have to be elected via "Sarbat Khalsa" and then quote sandesh's line by line by jathedar's that they clearly dismiss.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing agasint akaal takhat maryada at all niether do I lean against any specific maryada.

I have stood back and watched whats happened in the last few years and what have I found? The EXACT same thing that we hate is happening amongst us. We are becomimg politically motivated groups of "gursikhs" just like our fathers and grandfathers in Gurdwara committees (not a generalisation on all committees). It's become about who's got the clout and muscle more than who is actually right. Bullying committees, other Gursikhs etc etc isn't and should never have been the way these issues were tackled.

Some points to consider:

Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled all over Asia/middle east, they took parchcar to where it was needed.

Guru Gobind Singh Jee stood outside a brothel to prevent Bhai Joga from being inticed to going in.

This is what our Guru's did people! They didn't sit on a takhat and do nothing!

There are too many of us that are narrow minded and can't see outside their heads.

Anyone of us that shouts BEADBI and protests should be able to respond to questions like these posed to them.

Apologies for jumping here and there!

[N30S1NGH]

Proper maryada must be followed when taking maharaj saroop anywhere (no trace of alchohol/drugs/meat should be present, and the place must be cleaned thoroughly)

on that note khalsa ji,

i am just curious how does one justify taking maharaj ji on nagar kirtan on dirty roads/streets where cig buds/beers bottles are seen on side walks and non sikhs are seen standing and smoking some of them in their cars some of them just standing seeing the nagar kirtan.

btw, i m in no way advocating that one should take maharaj ji to halls where there is meats and sharab /dancing etc.

[N30S1NGH]

I made a similar thread earlier on this topic:

source: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=34083

I wanted to know from R4G campaigners and others-

what constitutes an beadhi of maharaj? is it an malice intention or difference of opnions in both - maryada or way of looking at things. I beleive strictly malice intentions constitutes an beadhi of maharaj. Ignorance/sharda/firm beleive in satguru purifies everything from brothels to banquet hall upon arrival does not constitute as beadhi of maharaj.

We all can agree taking maharaj to where sharab/taboacco is distributed intentially despite of person fully being educated is beadhi. Any joe blow who are born into sikh family knows that.

However, lets move little more towards subtle connoations of beadhi.

- Does arti-arta/phoola di varka on guru maharaj constitutes an beadhi of maharaj? most of people on here may say yes.. call it bhraminvad/manmat/ maha beadi therefore act like panthic police take out kirpana/ gandasa wait for house address on their mobile phones so that they can stop this maha beadhi but according to puratan maryada this does not hold that as beadhi but totally opposite as form of respect and individual's sharda.

- Does karak mahapursh bhramgyanis pictures/their relics close to maharaj or on the walls where maharaj is parkashed is beadhi? again some people may call this beadhi and ready to pick up their kirpana and gandasaie but another way of looking at that, bhramgyanis status given in gurbani how they are one with one jot of akaal purkh, there is no difference which gurbani itself talks about over and over and over again. How can one call this beadhi of maharaj where one is following instructions from gurbani on different forms of satkar given to sants/bhramgyanis?

- Is the person guilty of maharaj beadi or does this constitute maharaj beadhi if a person expressing his/her love more passionately eg- good knight kiss to guru ji ang, shed tears which falls on guru's pavitar ang? talk to guru ji like a freind like mitr to mitr after reaching that bhramdrist avastha?

- Is a person guilty of maharaj beadhi if a person who is in maharaj's room at the house gets into samadh roop mode for days that he/she forgets to do daily rituals like- sukhasan, bhog, hakumnamas?

- Is a person guilty of maharaj beadhi if a person who is in seva of maharaj in the room at the house all of sudden start getting attuned to vibrations which more than his/her capacitycan handle, letting him/her into trance mode where strange type of maneuvers/dancing/clapping/spining is naturally comes out infront of maharaj? is this beadhi of maharaj?

- How about subtle forms of beadhi which sikhs see it in every day life but sikhs decides to ignore or brush aside- eg- misprouncian of gurbani- unshud ucharan of gurbani, not singing in raagas as instructed in musical metres of gurbani, destruction of birdh/puratan saroops/gutkas of guru maharaj by SGPC, bhausaria's types subtly targetting gurbani being not mukhvak of gurus and targetting bhai gurdas ji varan by creating sansa/doubts among sangat.??

People have to look at these scenarios and subtle forms of beadhi before they start jumping on the bandwagons started writing petitions and causing unncessary bitterness/hostilty/division, waste of manpower, energy/time. Beadhi of maharaj is beadhi of maharaj, whether its in form of physical beadhi or in sutble form it does not make any difference.

Last but not least, i ll leave the sangat with two mindset of bhramgyanis on the issue of physical beadhi of guru maharaj..without any question they are both right, its not about the question of one mindset being right and other being wrong. They both need to be understood from very open mindset.

One such mindset is practised by purshautam maryada mahapursh, if physical beadhi of maharaj is taking place anywhere...Purshautam maryada mahapursh takes more active approach to instill anakh/sidaki/sharda in sikhs, - bringing people who do beadhi of mahapursh to justice. There is nothing wrong with that, its absoultely fine.

However second mindset which is often praticised by carefree mastaney bhramgyanis are equally valid and right. Mastaney bhramgyanis deals with maharaj's physical beadhi in a very different manner from looking at the angle of sri guru granth sahib ji(tat nichor/main essence) being- shabad guru and they ask others who like to join mahapursh in this protest- How and who can destroy or do beadhi of shabad guru?? shabad guru prevades in everything(kan/kan), its a primal force/dhuni/ resosance, it was there before beginning, past, present and ever will be (aad sach, jugad sach, hai bhi sach, nanak hosi bhi sach). How can people with malice intentions do beadhi of maharaj in essence all they do is to try to invoke reaction from sikh community so that they can show the world by getting help of media how extermists/terrorist/fanatics sikhs are by playing with their emotions.

Mastaney mahapurshs just smile at these foolish people who think they can do physical beadi of maharaj - shabad guru. Shabad guru prevades in everything,everywhere, universe, multiverse countless realms, universe. shabad guru its a primal force/dhuni/resosance/daiv shakti/shakta, its force that supports/nourishes whole akar... in essence , one cannot do beadhi of shabad guru. Shabad guru is nirankari jot.

As gurbani mentions- Vaho Vaho Bani Nirankar Hai ||

As they say- when you spit at the moon, spit comes to your face, nothing happens to glowing moon.

So both mindsets/angles adapted by mahapursh and people when it comes to beadhi of maharaj are right and valid. We have to be careful not to get emotionally carried away during this sangrash/peaceful protest and not start labelling each other - kacha pilla, dhilla singh or katarpanthi, extermist, fanatics sikhs just because people with other mindsets which is diversified and fully adapted by mahapursh's may have different approach fully aligned with gurmat via gurbani.

[Jangal Da]

Sarbloh, I agree with alot of waht you are saying.

However, for any of this to happen we need to hold some sort of conference or "jor mela" to discuss this. There are some of us that will quote the akaal takht sandesh everytime beadbi is shouted out yet will follow a seperate maryada when it comes to everything else and actually dismiss akaal takat altogether. We can't pick and choose as we are doing presently. These "shouters" will say that Jathedars of akaal takhat have to be elected via "Sarbat Khalsa" and then quote sandesh's line by line by jathedar's that they clearly dismiss.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing agasint akaal takhat maryada at all niether do I lean against any specific maryada.

I have stood back and watched whats happened in the last few years and what have I found? The EXACT same thing that we hate is happening amongst us. We are becomimg politically motivated groups of "gursikhs" just like our fathers and grandfathers in Gurdwara committees (not a generalisation on all committees). It's become about who's got the clout and muscle more than who is actually right. Bullying committees, other Gursikhs etc etc isn't and should never have been the way these issues were tackled.

Some points to consider:

Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled all over Asia/middle east, they took parchcar to where it was needed.

Guru Gobind Singh Jee stood outside a brothel to prevent Bhai Joga from being inticed to going in.

This is what our Guru's did people! They didn't sit on a takhat and do nothing!

There are too many of us that are narrow minded and can't see outside their heads.

Anyone of us that shouts BEADBI and protests should be able to respond to questions like these posed to them.

Apologies for jumping here and there!

Excellent post!

Our Gurus were men of the world and did not shun society with en egotistical attitude. I remember a post a while aback, about 'what would you do if Guru Gobind Singh ji came to your house.' I can imagine that if he'd watch a wedding dvd, he would not be blushing and hiding his face like a 16y old schoolgirl, or sitting there with a 'holier than thou' attitude making comments! Like the military genius that he was, he would develop a strategy to reach out to those who obviously have some affiliation with Sikhism and bring the Panth back into the Panth-Khalsa. If he'd pass a pub and knew that a Sikh in there could me made a Gursikh - he'd go in and I do not know how - love, parchar, whatever - he'd somehow achieve it. This was the man who in the 10th saroop of Guru Nanak ji, made the sparrow turn upon the hawk, made the subserviant into lions!

As Sikhs who are guardians of the Guru Granth Sahib, have a duty to maintain it in a respectful environment as laid down by Maryada, need to be wary about the context of beadbi. The context as mentioned by Maryada needs to be followed, but as long as there is an attentiveness to its hazuri at a place where the environment is appropriate, then let it go there and give forth its message, the gurbani and offer spiritual enlightenment or peace to the listeners. For example, taking it to a community center where there is a bar. Okay - firstly what were the obstacles to having this at the gurudwara ie not enough space etc. Ensure the bar area is closed off and no alcohol will be in the vicinity. Ensure the place is a clean as possible - send out cleaning squad beforehand.

Comes down to practicality and common sense. At the end of the day, local sangat should be the judges of this and if other sangats have strong objections, then facilitators should be selected to help adjudicate and offer solutions. Obviosly if true beadbi is going on, then thats a different matter and I cannot imagine any local sangat not spotting this out for themselves.