Name Your Pinds

[californiasardar1]

well according to my understanding (which is ok, but nufin compared 2 WestLondonSingh) is that most sikhs/hindus leaving west panjab settled in haryana and delhi and bordering areas of malwa. if im wrong please forgive me. thats why there arnt many khatris in panjab, as most khatris live in delhi/haryana.

I think a lot of Sikhs from Pakistan did settle in Delhi, but not THAT many. Keep in mind that roughly half of the Sikh population pre-partition was in what is now Pakistan. Delhi doesn't have THAT many Sikhs. Also, Haryana was part of Punjab at the time. If that many Sikhs had settled in certain parts of what is now Haryana, it wouldn't be part of Haryana, it would be part of Punjab (as Haryana was carved out of Punjab on the basis of self-reported native language, but in effect divided along religious lines).

[Guest KopSingh]

I think a lot of Sikhs from Pakistan did settle in Delhi, but not THAT many. Keep in mind that roughly half of the Sikh population pre-partition was in what is now Pakistan. Delhi doesn't have THAT many Sikhs. Also, Haryana was part of Punjab at the time. If that many Sikhs had settled in certain parts of what is now Haryana, it wouldn't be part of Haryana, it would be part of Punjab (as Haryana was carved out of Punjab on the basis of self-reported native language, but in effect divided along religious lines).

perhaps they settled in ex-muslim homes in ludhiana/jalandhar areas, especialy non-khatris

[West London Singh]

Good questions guys. And to be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the answer is. It'll be nice if someone more knowledgable here would enlighten us. I, personaly, was always under the impression that many of the Sikhs that had to leave Pakistan Punjab, notably those in the canal colonies of lyallpur, would have been from majha simply because they were there in the canal colonies in the first place by virtue of their distiction in military service and most in military serice were majhails. Thus I would have thought they were re-settled in their ancestoral lands in majha. The truth, however, is that much of majha also now lies in what is now Pakistan, so where were they settled ? I know that many of them settled in rural areas of what is now in haryana, such as rohtak, but I think most of them settled in malwa. The reason for this is because, at that time, the former maharajas of those sikh pricely states in malwa really came to the fore during partition. For all their faults, they went out of their way to help re-settle Sikh refugees from pakistan.

Kop Singh, you mentioned the bhatras a few posts ago. That is very interesting because I think they are very relevant in the current discussion and, in many ways, actually turn our own arguement on its head. They are the original pioneers of the England Sikh community and have a vast community here (in England). Because their origin and dialect lies in the Sialkot area of Majha we do, perhaps, as a sikh community, need to acknowldge the majha pioneers that laid the foundations of the uk sikh community.

[Guest KopSingh]

Kop Singh, you mentioned the bhatras a few posts ago. That is very interesting because I think they are very relevant in the current discussion and, in many ways, actually turn our own arguement on its head. They are the original pioneers of the England Sikh community and have a vast community here (in England). Because their origin and dialect lies in the Sialkot area of Majha we do, perhaps, as a sikh community, need to acknowldge the majha pioneers that laid the foundations of the uk sikh community.

my friend i knew i forgot 2 mention sumthing, n that is exactly that, the bhatras were mostly frm sialkot areas, n my mates who i mentioned r originally frm sialkot, but settled in malwa (bathinda). one thing that these bhatras have brought along with them (without sounding horrible) is the segregation at their weddings between men/women, also some continue to marry their cousins, not all, but some. this is probably down 2 being surrounded by west panjabi muslims. if im not mistaken, most bhatras settled in southampton/portsmouth n manchester.

1 of my mates brothers is now a well known uk born panjabi singer, who uses sialkoti as part of his name, which he proudly adds. so yea point well made son.

[saggu]

Raqba!

[zoltansingh]

Good questions guys. And to be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the answer is. It'll be nice if someone more knowledgable here would enlighten us. I, personaly, was always under the impression that many of the Sikhs that had to leave Pakistan Punjab, notably those in the canal colonies of lyallpur, would have been from majha simply because they were there in the canal colonies in the first place by virtue of their distiction in military service and most in military serice were majhails. Thus I would have thought they were re-settled in their ancestoral lands in majha. The truth, however, is that much of majha also now lies in what is now Pakistan, so where were they settled ? I know that many of them settled in rural areas of what is now in haryana, such as rohtak, but I think most of them settled in malwa.

Many of those settled in and around Jalandhar as there were muslim jagirdars in this area. I doubt many went to Rothak as it has always been a jaat area.

The areas of what is northern Haryana especially the old district of Hissar had lots of kareedar Sikhs from Daoba who were economic migrants (there to increase their landholdings). Not many pak evacuees around this area. There are Bilaspuria etc who were settled in northern Haryana after a dam was built in what is now Himachal. The land in Hissar area at the time was usless and held as jagirs by sardars (granted to them by the Patiala Raja). There are still plenty of Sikh families with land holdings of 100+ keyth in this area.

[West London Singh]

Many of those settled in and around Jalandhar as there were muslim jagirdars in this area. I doubt many went to Rothak as it has always been a jaat area.

The areas of what is northern Haryana especially the old district of Hissar had lots of kareedar Sikhs from Daoba who were economic migrants (there to increase their landholdings). Not many pak evacuees around this area. There are Bilaspuria etc who were settled in northern Haryana after a dam was built in what is now Himachal. The land in Hissar area at the time was usless and held as jagirs by sardars (granted to them by the Patiala Raja). There are still plenty of Sikh families with land holdings of 100+ keyth in this area.

Actually, after doing some research the last couple of days, I was right. A very very large proportion of the Sikhs that had to leave Pakistan were settled in what is today Haryana, including a very very large number in the rural Rohtak area. I've got my information from the reports by the 2 men that were charged with alocating land to the refugees : Tarlok Singh and Mr Randhawa, as heads of the Ministry of Rehabilitation, set up at that time. Before I state where the reports say each group of Sikhs were settled in there are 2 important points to note. At partition, the State Government of Punjab was given responsibility to re-settle the rural Punjabis (mostly Sikhs) whereas it was the Central Government in Delhi's responsibility to re-settle the urban population (mostly Hindus). So I'm basically talking about rural Sikhs here. The other important point to note, according to the reports, is that the massive population of the Lyallpur and Montgomery Sikhs, because they were so politically powerfull, were given first choice to settle anywhere they wanted. Because , as canal colonists, they were originally from areas of east punjab anyway (mostly majha), they mostly re-settled in their anscestoral lands there and also Ferozpur district which, although technically Malwa, has histroically had a close link with the Amritsar and Gurdaspur areas of Majhas. The report also points out how, sadly, the offspring of the original sikh misl leaders and ranjit singh, in Gujjranwala and Sheikepura districts, were the last on the list to re-settle and thus ended up in far flung places such as U.P and uttrakhand, or at least the worst lands that nobody else wanted. Doaba, took relatively very few sikh refugees.

So, here's where sikhs were re-settled,and I have to say, having stopped in villages deep in Haryana many times over the years and noticed how the pends there seem to have exactly the same proportion of farming sikhs as Punjabi pends, it doesn't surprise me too much, And , remember once again, that the canal colony sikhs (known as colonists) don't appear on the list because they were given free reign to pick the best lands wherever they wanted . Also, the list applies only to what the report terms rural 'Land-Owners' :

1) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Lahore district and Non-Colonists from Montgomery District were resettled in FEROZPUR DISTRICT (PUNJAB)

2) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Rawalpindi district, Sheikhupura district and Gujranwala District were resettled in KARNAL DISTRICT (HARYANA)

3) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Shahpur district and Gujrat District were resettled in AMBALA DISTRICT (HARYANA)

4) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Multan District were resettled in HISSAR DISTRICT (HARYANA)

5) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Jhang District and Muzafargarh District were resettled in ROHTAK DISTRICT (HARYANA)

6) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Dera Ghazikhan District and Mianwali District were resettled in GURGAON DISTRICT (HARYANA)

7) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Sialkot District were resettled in HOSHIARPUR DISTRICT, AMRITSAR DISTRICT AND GURDASPUR DISTRICT (PUNJAB)

So.....there you go. Its nice for us, the Sikh diaspora, to learn about each other. Next time you meet a brother or sister in any part of the world, its nice to able to know who they are, where they come from, and how they got there....as well as why they speak the way they speak.

[chatanga]

if anything a way, you could say this goes back to the fact that of the 3 groupings, the doaba sikhs are the only ones that don't actually 'belong' to that soil, in the sense that they are clans that moved down there from their actual lands in majha and malwa many many centuries ago. Indeed, if you look at the old accounts of Punjab you'll find that much of what we know as doaba today was at that time uninhabited jungles and forests.

Many areas of panjab as we know them today were uninhabited. Jalandhar district was no different, but Jalandhar was more inhabited than others areas then, as the moghals had a Jalandhar as a administrative unit, what we call tehsils today, and Jalandhar admin unit under the moghals also had its own army.

This wouldnt have happened if it was sparsely populated.

[chatanga]

I have met a Sikh family from Multan who were settled in Ludhiana, and my relatives who came from lyalpur and montgomery settled in jalandhar.

A lot of Sikhs who lived in Peshawar and surrounding areas chose Kabul over moving to indian panjab.

[Guest KopSingh]

Actually, after doing some research the last couple of days, I was right. A very very large proportion of the Sikhs that had to leave Pakistan were settled in what is today Haryana, including a very very large number in the rural Rohtak area. I've got my information from the reports by the 2 men that were charged with alocating land to the refugees : Tarlok Singh and Mr Randhawa, as heads of the Ministry of Rehabilitation, set up at that time. Before I state where the reports say each group of Sikhs were settled in there are 2 important points to note. At partition, the State Government of Punjab was given responsibility to re-settle the rural Punjabis (mostly Sikhs) whereas it was the Central Government in Delhi's responsibility to re-settle the urban population (mostly Hindus). So I'm basically talking about rural Sikhs here. The other important point to note, according to the reports, is that the massive population of the Lyallpur and Montgomery Sikhs, because they were so politically powerfull, were given first choice to settle anywhere they wanted. Because , as canal colonists, they were originally from areas of east punjab anyway (mostly majha), they mostly re-settled in their anscestoral lands there and also Ferozpur district which, although technically Malwa, has histroically had a close link with the Amritsar and Gurdaspur areas of Majhas. The report also points out how, sadly, the offspring of the original sikh misl leaders and ranjit singh, in Gujjranwala and Sheikepura districts, were the last on the list to re-settle and thus ended up in far flung places such as U.P and uttrakhand, or at least the worst lands that nobody else wanted. Doaba, took relatively very few sikh refugees.

So, here's where sikhs were re-settled,and I have to say, having stopped in villages deep in Haryana many times over the years and noticed how the pends there seem to have exactly the same proportion of farming sikhs as Punjabi pends, it doesn't surprise me too much, And , remember once again, that the canal colony sikhs (known as colonists) don't appear on the list because they were given free reign to pick the best lands wherever they wanted . Also, the list applies only to what the report terms rural 'Land-Owners' :

1) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Lahore district and Non-Colonists from Montgomery District were resettled in FEROZPUR DISTRICT (PUNJAB)

2) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Rawalpindi district, Sheikhupura district and Gujranwala District were resettled in KARNAL DISTRICT (HARYANA)

3) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Shahpur district and Gujrat District were resettled in AMBALA DISTRICT (HARYANA)

4) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Multan District were resettled in HISSAR DISTRICT (HARYANA)

5) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Jhang District and Muzafargarh District were resettled in ROHTAK DISTRICT (HARYANA)

6) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Dera Ghazikhan District and Mianwali District were resettled in GURGAON DISTRICT (HARYANA)

7) Agricultural land-owning Sikhs from Sialkot District were resettled in HOSHIARPUR DISTRICT, AMRITSAR DISTRICT AND GURDASPUR DISTRICT (PUNJAB)

So.....there you go. Its nice for us, the Sikh diaspora, to learn about each other. Next time you meet a brother or sister in any part of the world, its nice to able to know who they are, where they come from, and how they got there....as well as why they speak the way they speak.

wow wat a fantastic post, big up